Timed HE to HE Switch and Shotgun Vehicles

[MenciusMoldbug]

Hello everyone,

I'm not really back, so this might just be a one-off post, but I wanted to talk about two things, which could be broken down to a few things:

The units that have timed HE like the stug 3 or puma 50mm should get an upgradeable 75 munition costing HE shells like the one 75mm Sherman has, which will let them switch to permenant HE when they want too like other tanks and vehicles which have an AP and HE switch. Reason I say this is because timed HE really just means 'firing an extra HE shell' and sometimes its a complete waste to use because you get stuck having to wait for it to expire to switch to targets requiring AP. I also want the stug 3 and stug 4 to be more different rather than just one has camouflage and the other has cool abilities attached to it, and I want the stug 3 to be more of an infantry support role where it can back up infantry when they need it. I don't really think of the stug 3 as a tank destroyer anyway, to me its always been an assault gun, and like a good assault gun it should have the proper HE to blast infantry away. Reason I would give the 50mm Puma the HE switch is because its kind of uh... bad... compared to all the other vehicles you can get. Multi-role vehicles on the axis side aren't that great because pure HE vehicles or pure AT vehicles do much better than the Puma 50mm, and I believe that's the reason why the Puma 50mm was requested to be buffed and become availably much earlier because of how little role it has in the axis side. That's why I believe this unit should get an AP / HE switch to make it a lot more useful and appealing to build rather than just a one-off you use early in the game and never again.

Second thing I wanted is shotgun vehicles, or rather vehicles with permenant canister shot shells loaded. I'm thinking of the Staghound and Stuart who already have a one-off canister shell that should turn into an upgrade they can get to switch to canister shell mode. Basically these vehicles would purchase canister rounds and activate it like a HE switch, and these rounds would have a rather small range, but would be very deadly if they get in range of infantry. The current canister shell is very iffy to use and you don't see it a whole lot because it has an aim time and if the model it was meant to fire on dies, the canister shell doesn't fire at all, and this happens a lot more than you would think because the vehicle needs to get in close and hope the co-axils or other MG's of the vehicle don't kill the model it is targetting. This is more of a bonus thing I attached to replacing timed HE with HE switch but I would like it to be in the game, if it doesn't happen, oh well. That's all from me.

[tarakancheg]

Puma is already very strong and this buff is not needed. It 1 shots all of the HTs most of the time, has a Lot of range, gives you a lot of map pressence and with current HE casually wipes squads with no problem.
Stug 3 with switch HE may become straight up a better Pz. 3 that needs some munition investments, but costs less MP, can mark target, drop smoke with big AoE and has AP.
What is canister shot (game mechanics wise)? Short range shot where a unit rolls a bunch of shots at random soldiers in aoe around main target (soldier model in this case). It is inferior to HE in damage output, will have less range than most HHAT and I don't see a place for it in the game except if it will be a cheap shot against inf if you don't want t swith to HE and reeeealy need some AI solution at given moment.

[MenciusMoldbug]

Is the Puma really that strong? Last I remember it gets yoinked pretty quick by everything. I remember way way back when blitz had the 2 cp fuel supply unlock and you could mess around with spamming pumas, I had 1 cromwell take out 2 50mm pumas by itself. I also don't remember the HE being too strong, rather it was kind of meh, unless something changed.

That's why I think the canister shot should just become an ability upgrade switch because like you said, it is short range shot that does random aoe damage to a target and is inferior to HE, so you will never see it 99% of the time. + I miss the staghound firing with its main gun at infantry and since it doesn't have HE shells, might as well give it a canister switch instead.

[CGarr]

I've never seen a puma kill more than 3 models with an HE shot, I don't think toggle HE would be bad. The Puma really isn't that scary as an AT unit, so making it function as a proper multirole unit would make sense. Shermans eat them alive and CW definitely doesn't have trouble with killing light vehicles.

[idliketoplaybetter]

Strong or not, the real thing here is not to make unit over too universal as there are different variants of Puma (that most of people ignore or overplay most of the time) and as in this context Stug3 also has counterparts.

It's not really a question of "balance" rather gameplay variability and risk of doing X not Y.

[MarKr]

I would rather change the timed HE to single-shot HE. If it gets HE mode, it will completely overshadow the puma/HT with stubby 75mm gun. If you want an anti-infantry light vehicle get the stubby stuff.
Same goes for the StuG3. It is there to support infantry against vehicles/tanks, it cannot camo so being able to occasionally fire an HE for more versatility is OK, but giving it an HE mode will overshadow stubby PIVs because the StuG would have about the same durability, would wipe infantry and if runs into a tank, it has the 75mm L48, which stubby PIVs don't have.
Kinda what idliketoplaybetter said - the more you make some unit versatile, the more it will make some other unit obsolete.

[Consti255]

wouldnt say so. Turretless does make a huge difference in infantry fighting.
I kinda like the idea for the Stug, it fits the theme perfectly and honestly a buff isnt too bad of a choice.

Unpopular opinion: Why not simply remove the P3 N from Blitz and let the StuG 3 take its role?
Let it take its space in the assault group call in and give it a perma HE upgrade for ammo.
The Panzer 3 N is anyway just a meme and wasnt really used back than, so no ReAlIsTiC boys could go nuts over its removement from the blitz doc.

Gonna have to agree with play better. The Puma could get too versitle when getting a perma HE.
Throwback to the old chaffee days with perma HE.
Where i disagree tho is that the puma is strong in anykind. this thing comes late, is expensive, squishy as balls and has a super slow turret, and the HE honestly is everything but not a whipeing tool.

I made a topic already for the Puma/Chaffee light tanks and what should be changed for their initial role so we can get back from that light tank fighting only purpose to more of a scout/support role with combat capabilitys.

[Krieger Blitzer]

I would keep it timed as is.

We don't need to entirely remove the Timed HE abilities from the game, plus.. they actually provide the advantage of shooting while on the move, unlike single-shot HE modes where the tank has to stop.

Timed HE is particularly useful for the 50mm Puma.

[Warhawks97]

I never liked timed HE at all and never understood why they exist in the first place. I prefer either single shot HE or swap instead of having HE loaded for like idk, 20 seconds or more for no reason.

I would prefer all HE/AP to be a swap. The time it takes to switch from one round to another would depend on the gun (size, power, unit etc). It would be the most balanced way possible.

1. It would allow players to load the rounds they need unlike timed ammo use which makes you stuck untill it expires (explained by mencius)
2. It would be superior to single shot HE which allows to bypass regular reload times. Tanks that are already powerfull can fire an AP round and HE round sometimes within 3 seconds although their gun would take 7-9 seconds to reload.

I also highly agree with the stug III part mencius brought up. I wont repeat it here again.

[CGarr]

I never liked timed HE at all and never understood why they exist in the first place. I prefer either single shot HE or swap instead of having HE loaded for like idk, 20 seconds or more for no reason.

I would prefer all HE/AP to be a swap. The time it takes to switch from one round to another would depend on the gun (size, power, unit etc). It would be the most balanced way possible.

1. It would allow players to load the rounds they need unlike timed ammo use which makes you stuck untill it expires (explained by mencius)
2. It would be superior to single shot HE which allows to bypass regular reload times. Tanks that are already powerfull can fire an AP round and HE round sometimes within 3 seconds although their gun would take 7-9 seconds to reload.

I also highly agree with the stug III part mencius brought up. I wont repeat it here again.

^