Sturmtiger

[Warhawks97]

- Changed the cost of Sturmtiger shot to 100 ammo and recharge to 90s (from 150 ammo and 360s)
- Added an ability to Sturmtiger to reinforce infantry nearby
- Added an ability to Sturmtiger to apply debuff aura same as Tiger tanks (also requires the same unlock)

Just got some time to spend some time with BK and went through the changelog. I was like WTF when reading this one.

So, to get this straight:

You have a unit that is basically impervious to 99% of the weapons fielded on allied side (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kJWAW-Gyws from 1:05:35 its nicely visible), that magically nerfs all allied enemies nearby, that fires a big ass rocket to smash any defense just like that, that costs no fuel unlike tanks and halftracks would do and which can on top of all that reinforce infantry nearby.

Hello, devs, do you have a consciousness??
What is this unit? A Ork "Battlewagon" from warhammer 40k? Or just a bad joke?

[Krieger Blitzer]

To be honest, i think the change is fine.. but i did say before that the price has to be increased.
700 MP is too cheap for a late war tank... Nothing less than 1000 MP or even 1400 MP to say the least; currently it's too easy to replace.

The changes are fine though, in my opinion.

[Jagdpanther]

What kind of weird reality these coders are living in? Since when big gun means transport vehicle? The thing can carry a 5 men crew , thats it, no more space for others.

[Krieger Blitzer]

What kind of weird reality these devs are living in? Since when big gun means transport vehicle? The thing can carry a 5 men crew , thats it, no more space for others. It makes sense for halftracks and trucks to reinforce but not for tanks.

Reinforcing inf nearby was an idea that has originated from soldiers being able to embark at the back of the tank.
And since embarking inf isn't possible technically, the ability to reinforce inf nearby was then introduced to CoH.

I don't see a problem for SturmTiger to be able to reinforce inf nearby, just as Churchills and Tiger1.H currently do.


However; i would increase the ST price to 1400 MP and also reduce the range to just 90.

[Consti255]

1000MP is fine and add fuel upkeep.

[MarKr]

Chance to penetrate Sturmtiger at max range on "rear" hit (with AP off):
76mm gun: 60%
90mm gun: 92%
17 pounder: 80%

Those Shermans were all shooting frontally without even trying to take some position for scoring a "rear" hit. The Pershing took one shot at it after the gun got repaired, it hit from side and destroyed the ST. It had been damaged prior to the hit, but still penetrated without a problem.

Don't start with rEaLiSm here - it makes no sense for halftracks to reinforce infantry either. Yes, they were transport vehicles but the infantry inside got out before the fighting started and the vehicle supported them during combat. It's not like some soldiers got out, some stayed in and when someone outside got hit, the team leader yelled "WE NEED A REINFORCEMENT!!!!" and another dude just jumped out to join the fighting.

The unit needs to be foremost useful. If we keep it as a "shoot once in a while a big-ass rocket and then let it sit somewhere for a few minutes" - it will be pointless. And no, a "click-to-reload" button will not make it useful.

Cost adjustments reflecting the new performance are ofcourse possible.

1000MP is fine and add fuel upkeep.

It already has 4.5 Fuel upkeep (same as other Tigers). How much more upkeep should it have?

[Jagdpanther]

Chance to penetrate Sturmtiger at max range on "rear" hit (with AP off):
76mm gun: 60%
90mm gun: 92%
17 pounder: 80%

Those Shermans were all shooting frontally without even trying to take some position for scoring a "rear" hit. The Pershing took one shot at it after the gun got repaired, it hit from side and destroyed the ST. It had been damaged prior to the hit, but still penetrated without a problem.

Don't start with rEaLiSm here - it makes no sense for halftracks to reinforce infantry either. Yes, they were transport vehicles but the infantry inside got out before the fighting started and the vehicle supported them during combat. It's not like some soldiers got out, some stayed in and when someone outside got hit, the team leader yelled "WE NEED A REINFORCEMENT!!!!" and another dude just jumped out to join the fighting.

The unit needs to be foremost useful. If we keep it as a "shoot once in a while a big-ass rocket and then let it sit somewhere for a few minutes" - it will be pointless. And no, a "click-to-reload" button will not make it useful.

Cost adjustments reflecting the new performance are ofcourse possible.

1000MP is fine and add fuel upkeep.

It already has 4.5 Fuel upkeep (same as other Tigers). How much more upkeep should it have?

Whats wrong with that word? Why are you writing it like that? rEaLiSm . Is it a cursed word?

[Krieger Blitzer]

Cost adjustments reflecting the new performance are ofcourse possible.

1000MP is fine and add fuel upkeep.

It already has 4.5 Fuel upkeep (same as other Tigers). How much more upkeep should it have?

Fuel upkeep currently fine.

I am pretty sure it has no ammo upkeep (was intentionally removed which made sense back then) but now i think adding ammo upkeep after the change(s) would be reasonable.. i would say -7 ammo upkeep.

As for the price, i would say somewhere from 1000 MP to 1400 MP or so.

The range currently is also very high, 90 range for the rocket should be enough.

[MarKr]

Whats wrong with that word? Why are you writing it like that? rEaLiSm . Is it a cursed word?

Because this is a game and the priority is gameplay, not realistic simulation of WW2, therefore any complaint/suggestion is ridiculous if the main reason for it is realism. It has been said dozen times already.

[Mood]

Well, it's like Markr writes... Some guys here complain about "realism" when it goes against their personal preference. It's like when I asked recently if lots of tanks missing smoke was intended or just forgotten, the OP came and mentioned "it's fine, for balancing reasons".
But here it's apparently "not fine", because it goes against his personal preference.

[Warhawks97]

I don't see a problem for SturmTiger to be able to reinforce inf nearby, just as Churchills and Tiger1.H currently do.


However; i would increase the ST price to 1400 MP and also reduce the range to just 90.

Which i dont like either. Any tanks role is not to reinforce infantry nearby. Who even came up with that bullshit. Halftracks are the support vehicles for infantry while tanks are main combat units. Its simple as that.

And i dont like any cost increase in terms of MP either just to balance this "can reinforce infantry nearby bullshit".

Chance to penetrate Sturmtiger at max range on "rear" hit (with AP off):
76mm gun: 60%
90mm gun: 92%
17 pounder: 80%

Those Shermans were all shooting frontally without even trying to take some position for scoring a "rear" hit. The Pershing took one shot at it after the gun got repaired, it hit from side and destroyed the ST. It had been damaged prior to the hit, but still penetrated without a problem.

yes, but in normal games you dont stand inside their base when the thing comes out. Its guarded by inf, tanks, AT vehicles etc. I just took this as an example how ridicolous it is to have a Halftrack with King Tiger armor.

Don't start with rEaLiSm here - it makes no sense for halftracks to reinforce infantry either. Yes, they were transport vehicles but the infantry inside got out before the fighting started and the vehicle supported them during combat. It's not like some soldiers got out, some stayed in and when someone outside got hit, the team leader yelled "WE NEED A REINFORCEMENT!!!!" and another dude just jumped out to join the fighting.

No other coh, not even inf vanilla, can tanks reinforce infantry units simply because this isnt their role and purpose. As i said, i have no idea who even came up with this retarded idea. Ofc, Halftracks cant magically reinforce infantry just like that. But the overall game design is that Halftracks exist for exactly this reason: Support and reinforce infantry in the field. Turning tanks into logistical support units is utter bullshit.

The unit needs to be foremost useful. If we keep it as a "shoot once in a while a big-ass rocket and then let it sit somewhere for a few minutes" - it will be pointless. And no, a "click-to-reload" button will not make it useful.

Dude, a cost reduction of the ability along with cooldown reduction was all it was needed. 100 ammo and 90 sec cooldown is fine, no need to add "extras" again. STICK with the tanks MAIN PURPOSE and dont add bullshit "uTiLiTy" to a unit just to make them usefull. If a unit isnt good enough in what its designed for, make it better in the area in what it was designed for and dont keep adding random nonsense abilities.

Units exist to perform certain tasks. Even to this day its often this way with a few exceptions. If you build an army and a unit comp, you do that based on your understanding on which unit is going to do what. Like an AT gun that gives you the ability to fight armor. But you keep twisting and turning units from upside down and back just to say "hey, this unit can do something so you have a reason to build it".

This is just all so fucking retarded.


In this case: Can we pls get rid of tanks that reinforce nearby infantry?!

[Krieger Blitzer]

In this case: Can we pls get rid of tanks that reinforce nearby infantry?!

I see where you are coming from, but personally i think tanks reinforcing inf nearby is a good feature as long as it's limited for certain tanks.. and currently; all tanks that can do it (including ST) are balanced gameplay wise.

Worth saying tho; the price for ST would still need an increase regardlessly.

[Warhawks97]

In this case: Can we pls get rid of tanks that reinforce nearby infantry?!

I see where you are coming from, but personally i think tanks reinforcing inf nearby is a good feature as long as it's limited for certain tanks.. and currently; all tanks that can do it (including ST) are balanced gameplay wise.

Worth saying tho; the price for ST would still need an increase regardlessly.

Its absolutely not. I think it was the most stupid idea in BK history to allow tanks to reinforce infantry. Tanks are already vital enough and have a huge impact in the game. Thats why everyone is rushig them. Allowing them to reinforce inf makes things even more retarded and vehicles in general even less valuable. Why increasing the value of already very valuable units? HT´s already have a very limited role and that is taken away with this silly feature.

[Consti255]

i like the new ST.
What i really hate is that it gets the debuff aura. This thing is just super good com bined with its armor and reinforce ability.
I say keep the upkeep by 4.5 and increase its cost to 1000MP and get rid of this tiger debuff aura or even betternerf the aura itself, that tanks wont loose speed.
While it makes sense that allied crews did get worried when seeing such, but by would the tank itself drive slower? thats rediclous and a absolute pain to play against while this units have big ass guns with big ass range.


Side note:
i would rather have a look at the nasty Stuka zu Fuß. Which is a real pain in the ass.

[idliketoplaybetter]

I would get rid of the aura, but would not to touch the price. Imo, 700mp in a proper game for the propoer section of the CP tree that it is now, already link the gameplay enough.

In a proper scenario nobody will be able to "spam" it anyway, nor combine the spam with the TIger ace 1k+ MP that everyone are doing. But 700mp for the ST is decent enough for the "comeback" situation, alined with occasional need for rebuilding cheap infantry.

Player will have to chose between the two and yet price is okay, making it higher will make it off too risky choice.

[Ralf0206]

I'm gonna weigh in on this since I played a couple of games on the beta version already.
However, please keep in mind that I am talking about the low to mid-levels of play here, so take my opinion with a grain of salt.

That being said, I personally think the Sturmtiger change is fine. It allows the propaganda doctrine to reinforce anywhere, without having to rely on a building to upgrade to a forward HQ. While I recognize that halftracks can also fill that role, I still very much like the Sturmtiger having a purpose other than firing a rocket every 5 minutes.

From the thread, I can tell that people take issue with both the tanking capabilities of the Sturmtiger and its debuff aura.

I personally don't think that the debuff aura will cause too many issues. If you look at the flow of how propaganda plays, you can see that the aura only realistically comes out after 12-14 CP. This is rather late into the game, and most people will have a normal Tiger fielded anyways by the time you unlock the Aura.

The tanking capabilities are something you can look at. The Sturmtiger's purpose (as far as I can tell) is to take out heavily fortified positions.
Since it has a lot of range, it does not need to be able to take any hits in order to perform that role. Catching it out with infantry or a 76er should allow you to take it out. I would not mind making it cost slightly more, just to make it more punishing if you end up losing it.
On the other hand, even if it is very tanky, it does not really do anything. After it shoots you can basically just ignore it and walk past it.
The video illustrates how little it does in an actual game setting, even if it is super tanky.
I would move to reduce its armor and make 76mm guns a threat to it from the front.
If you think it is stupid to deviate the armor profile from its historic values, please refer to the previous posts about realism.

Quality of life changes and utility buffs have always improved underutilized units in the game. Right now, the Strumtiger is only a "win harder" type of unit, rather than an actually have course altering effects on the game. Therefore, it should receive all the love it can get.

Side note:
I would rather have a look at the nasty Stuka zu Fuß. Which is a real pain in the ass.

I say this post as well, and I can't help but agree. In my opinion, you should even try to swap the Stuka and the Strumtiger unlock. That way, you'd have a clear "break the line" theme for this branch.

[Krieger Blitzer]

Since it has a lot of range, it does not need to be able to take any hits in order to perform that role. Catching it out with infantry or a 76er should allow you to take it out. I would not mind making it cost slightly more, just to make it more punishing if you end up losing it.
On the other hand, even if it is very tanky, it does not really do anything. After it shoots you can basically just ignore it and walk past it.
The video illustrates how little it does in an actual game setting, even if it is super tanky.
I would move to reduce its armor and make 76mm guns a threat to it from the front.
If you think it is stupid to deviate the armor profile from its historic values, please refer to the previous posts about realism.

The armor of ST is fine, it's the range that should be reduced on the other hand.. not vice versa.
Price needs to be higher as well, as it's a late war tank.

I say this post as well, and I can't help but agree. In my opinion, you should even try to swap the Stuka and the Strumtiger unlock. That way, you'd have a clear "break the line" theme for this branch.

Swapping the unlocks doesn't sound bad.

[kwok]

I put my own opinion into the poll. In general, I see the unit had problems at first because it lacked utility. Based on the poll SO FAR a lot of people like ALL the features given to the ST. It'd be dumb that once it's finally useful we take away utility. We would be back on the spin of trying to make the unit useful again. So when I look at the ST I see its problem not in utility but macro which I think a couple people have suggested here.

An option I didn't see come up is making the unit buildable instead of a call in. Or extended the call-in cooldown. These are macro controls. What do people think of this as counter balances?

[Warhawks97]

I put my own opinion into the poll. In general, I see the unit had problems at first because it lacked utility. Based on the poll SO FAR a lot of people like ALL the features given to the ST. It'd be dumb that once it's finally useful we take away utility. We would be back on the spin of trying to make the unit useful again. So when I look at the ST I see its problem not in utility but macro which I think a couple people have suggested here.

An option I didn't see come up is making the unit buildable instead of a call in. Or extended the call-in cooldown. These are macro controls. What do people think of this as counter balances?

minimum should be buildable. Also one unit less to cause sync errors. 700 MP and arround 100 fuel. Even that is i think not quite cheap considering you get litterally an Imperial Death Star with Tie Fighters and devestating main weapon. The Stupa is also arround this price tag and has far less utility overall.

[tarakancheg]

minimum should be buildable. Also one unit less to cause sync errors. 700 MP and arround 100 fuel. Even that is i think not quite cheap considering you get litterally an Imperial Death Star with Tie Fighters and devestating main weapon. The Stupa is also arround this price tag and has far less utility overall.

On the other side Stupa and Stuh both shoot for free and are capable of attacking emplacements and soft targets just fine especially with TC and vet.

[Krieger Blitzer]

An option I didn't see come up is making the unit buildable instead of a call in. Or extended the call-in cooldown. These are macro controls. What do people think of this as counter balances?

If buildable; then i suggest a price of 1000 MP, 100 fuel.

If not buildable; then a price of 1500 MP or so.

Range reduced to around 90 in both cases.

Off-topic;
Speaking of which, i hope we can have BeuteShermans buildable as well.

[Ralf0206]

An option I didn't see come up is making the unit buildable instead of a call in. Or extended the call-in cooldown. These are macro controls. What do people think of this as counter balances?

I don't like the build option. It would probably be buildable in the Tank Factory, which will require you to spend 215 fuel I believe. (calculated from the start of the game, which granted sounds a lot more than it really is, but the point still stands.)
This is a lot of fuel or a utility and specialized unit. Then again, having access to it in any other building does not make sense thematically, since heavy tanks are always built in the heavy tank factory. I would move to simply add a fuel cost to the call-in and maybe push up the upkeep a little bit.

minimum should be buildable. Also one unit less to cause sync errors. 700 MP and arround 100 fuel.

This would seriously cripple WE economy. While I agree with trying to reduce sync errors, it feels weird to spend 315 fuel for a unit that can't even shoot.
In comparison, an M4 Sherman is just 160 fuel if you rush it.

even that is i think not quite cheap considering you get litterally an Imperial Death Star with Tie Fighters and devestating main weapon.

I like the death star comparison because it literally does nothing but shoot once and then die. It's arguably the most useless installation in the Star Wars universe. Especially when you can get a Super-Star Destroyer (Tiger) for the same price, and it can actually shoot.

The Stupa is also arround this price tag and has far less utility overall.

The stupa can shoot. If you allow the Strumtiger to auto-target anything and shoot it with its 380mm rocket, then I agree, bump up the price.

[MarKr]

This would seriously cripple WE economy. While I agree with trying to reduce sync errors, it feels weird to spend 315 fuel for a unit that can't even shoot.

The call in ability already requires you to have the heavy tank factory built, so what does it matter if you build the factory and then click on an ability, or build the factory and click on a unit in it?

In comparison, an M4 Sherman is just 160 fuel if you rush it.

Yes, but the Sherman:
- can get destroyed by any gun bigger than 37mm and Axis have 50mm and bigger guns mounted on almost everything (ST has armor comparable to KT so it can frontally bounce even 17 pounders and 90mm guns)
- cannot reinforce infantry around (ST can)
- cannot nerf enemy units (ST can)
- can shoot only at distance of "50" (ST can shoot at distance of "200")

So if you compare these things, it makes sense that the Sherman costs less.

[Krieger Blitzer]

The call in ability already requires you to have the heavy tank factory built, so what does it matter if you build the factory and then click on an ability, or build the factory and click on a unit in it?

+1

- can shoot only at distance of "50" (ST can shoot at distance of "200")

Should be halved from 200 to a 100 or slightly lower.

[Diablo]

Should be halved from 200 to a 100 or slightly lower.

Why though?
The Sturmtiger's shot is neither very accurate (especially from medium range upwards), nor is its damage profile hyper reliable.
To be quite honest, the unit is really only effective versus emplacement clusters and dug in infantry. And when properly scouting for approaching mobile arty, infantry casualties can be minimized against this sluggish unit.