Recent Topics Conclusion

[Krieger Blitzer]

Based on the recent topics; i would just like to draw the attention that i am not inclined to explain my opinion each time i post something. Neither anybody else is obliged.. personally i try to avoid discussions that i see meaningless, but will still sometimes provide detailed posts when i feel that it's needed or have the time to... For now, this ----> (viewtopic.php?p=43010#p43010) would be the last post in that topic.. where i elaborated a bit more as i described my viewpoint and shared my opinion already, no further posts will be made by me there.


Meanwhile, based on these topics; i can say that there are a few things i'd like to outline:

- Grille should have longer barrage cool-down time.
- 2 CP Def doc 105 howitzers should require 3rd building.
- Hummel should be buildable for maybe a cost of 650 MP / 90 fuel.
- if the Flank Speed gets removed, proper (but not extreme) compensation should be applied.
- 37mm AT guns HE should be looked into (nerfed or single-shot, etc).


That said, any further doctrine re-works (SE or Panzer Support, etc) or any game-play related overhauls (ex. camo system, price revisions, etc) would lead to nothing but negative outcomes.. so let's not drift away from the current state of balance.

My brief opinion.

[Consti255]

2CP def doc howitzer with the 3. building wont change a thing.
When playing high res games, you are in 8min at max tec. The third building doesnt even require max tec.
So all we would achieve is maximum of a 30sec up to 1 min delay.

[Krieger Blitzer]

The 105 dies easily to 75mm HT anyways.
Problem is if u delay the howitzer to 4 CP same as inf doc, then Def doc player pretty much would have nothing special to provide the first 10 to 15 min of an HR game.. for 2 CP, inf doc gets off-map or CQB.

Unless an off-map was given to Def doc at 2 CP which doesn't sound too smart.
I don't mind the 2 CP arty, i have seen them being countered even by static 75mm howitzers.
The fact that u can unlock them early isn't really that much big of an advantage except maybe in 4v4 games.

[Consti255]

The 105 dies easily to 75mm HT anyways.
Problem is if u delay the howitzer to 4 CP same as inf doc, then Def doc player pretty much would have nothing special to provide the first 10 to 15 min of an HR game.. for 2 CP, inf doc gets off-map or CQB.

Unless an off-map was given to Def doc at 2 CP which doesn't sound too smart.
I don't mind the 2 CP arty, i have seen them being countered even by static 75mm howitzers.
The fact that u can unlock them early isn't really that much big of an advantage except maybe in 4v4 games.

only leig18s, tanky pios with mp40s, super cheap pak 40s on a HT, Grenadiers. Fast access to medium TDs, officier offmaps, the 28mm HT to build big empacements. The list goes on. The base rooster of def is strong alone in the beginning

[Warhawks97]

The 105 dies easily to 75mm HT anyways.
Problem is if u delay the howitzer to 4 CP same as inf doc, then Def doc player pretty much would have nothing special to provide the first 10 to 15 min of an HR game.. for 2 CP, inf doc gets off-map or CQB.

Unless an off-map was given to Def doc at 2 CP which doesn't sound too smart.
I don't mind the 2 CP arty, i have seen them being countered even by static 75mm howitzers.
The fact that u can unlock them early isn't really that much big of an advantage except maybe in 4v4 games.

only leig18s, tanky pios with mp40s, super cheap pak 40s on a HT, Grenadiers. Fast access to medium TDs, officier offmaps, the 28mm HT to build big empacements. The list goes on. The base rooster of def is strong alone in the beginning

was just about to say the same. WH has a pretty diverse opening game in HR games regardless of doctrine actually. I usually feel like that the first 10-15 mins is the part where WH in HR games can really shine due to quite easily accessble and potent units such as Pak 36 with HE, 20 mm vehicles, 37 mm HT´s, Volkssturm spam along with easily beefed up officer squad, leig 18 in def doc, quick 80 mm mortar in any doctrine, Halftracks coming literally right away with MG34 and so on and so on, 20 mm flak emplacments and whats not.

For real, AB or armor doc have in general a much weaker opening. They have some cool jeeps but nothing pak 36 combined with 20 mm units and grens cant deal with.


So when i play WH, i am not really worried at all in the opening stages of a game. AT guns, 20 mm cars, mortars provide everything needed for defensive and offensive play.

[Consti255]

Dont forget the 81mm mortar you get with every doc.

[Redgaarden]

Dont forget sten command from 2nd truck. They are old commandos that haven't gone through any changes. What about 81mm?

[Krieger Blitzer]

- Grille should have longer barrage cool-down time.
- 2 CP Def doc 105 howitzers should require 3rd building.
- Hummel should be buildable for maybe a cost of 650 MP / 90 fuel.
- if the Flank Speed gets removed, proper (but not extreme) compensation should be applied.
- 37mm AT guns HE should be looked into (nerfed or single-shot, etc).

I could also add:
Nerf to Stuarts 37mm gun HE rounds too.. currently it's nearly performing better than Shermans & way stronger than WH 37mm HT.

[Warhawks97]

I could also add:
Nerf to Stuarts 37mm gun HE rounds too.. currently it's nearly performing better than Shermans & way stronger than WH 37mm HT.

It has an AoE of a 75 mm gun and is clearly better than a cromwell 75 mm, but the damage on the units hit are generally higher for the axis 37 mm but has slightly smaller AoE.

And yes, when i talk about 37 mm guns, i mean all of them. I think i made this clear meany times.

[Viper]

- 2 CP Def doc 105 howitzers should require 3rd building.

no.

25 pounder cost less. little upkeep. barrage cheaper. more abilities. same range. and no command points.

[Consti255]

- 2 CP Def doc 105 howitzers should require 3rd building.

no.

25 pounder cost less. little upkeep. barrage cheaper. more abilities. same range. and no command points.

105 > 87,6mm.

25 pounder deal very small damage to mediums or heavys or even emplacements, You can compare them to a 75mm howitzer, not a 105.
Absolute nonesense.

[Krieger Blitzer]

Actually the point Viper brought up about 25p is absolutely valid.

While 25p isn't as lethal as 105 howitzers, it remains to be an equivelant due to its superior abilities & how early accessable it is.. the weaker performance compared to 105 is already negated by how cheap it is to afford.

I completely forgot about it as i only focused on the 75mm HT as a counter to 105 howitzers.. but actually i had recently seen a very interesting 2v2 where 25p completely obliterated any attempt for the Def player to construct 105 howitzers.. so it's definitely a proper counter, and has very high chances to immobilize tanks btw.

[Consti255]

-You still need 2 CP to get the longer range

[Warhawks97]

The 25 pdr is in terms of damage etc more comparable to 75 mm and leig 18 etc. If you put the 25 pdr behind an unlock (which i personally wouldnt mind) you would have to put units like the maultier and even neblers behind cps.

The 25 pdr as a weapon is meant to disrupt the enemie in its build up. I think for this reason it also has a shorter cooldown. Later into the game its virtually usless as it would lose any artillery duel and would have issues to deal significant damage. 105´s have for sure a much bigger impact and punch.

But anyways, using this as an arugment against artillery delay and cost changes is just stupid. You see there is something wrong but instead of fixing it you point your fingers to a neighbour and say "look, he does it, too". I would have expected from you to have an idea for that issue rather than saying "lets dont fix the apparent issue".

Also in a same sense you could ask why CW has no 81 mm infantry mortar and has to pay CP for its 107 mm mortar while SE gets the 120 mm just like that. Its the same logic here.

I barely see the 25 pdr in games and i cant remember when i saw someone using it against me. Essentially this gun has one job: prevent your enemie from digging in since its too weak to break a strong defense once its readily build up.

[Krieger Blitzer]

I think what i am trying to say here isn't "look, they can do it too" but rather how the 2 CP 105 howitzer in Def doc actually isn't that much of a big deal as some players try to persuade us.. from a balance point of view; there are several ways to counter it, and it doesn't automatically lead the Def player to instant victory. And from a game-play perspective; the Axis 105 howitzers aren't the only pieces of arty that are early available in the game, therefore delaying just this one wouldn't suddenly make the arty situation any better, the only achievement would be harming the Def doctrine.. there is noway to block all arty usage in early game without breaking balance either, arty is an essential part of the game and the proper method to deal with camping.

Personally though, i still don't mind delaying the Def doc 105 Howitzers by requiring more tech, but CP wise; i believe it's in the right spot at the moment.. even following your 107 mortars example, which exactly shows that not everything has to be standardized the same way, the SE 120 mortar doesn't require CP but hence requires more tech on the other hand.. so we can do the same with Def doc 105 howitzers; less CP compared to inf doc (which gets off-map in the meantime) but more tech requirements instead.

That would be better than delaying Def 105 howitzer in terms of CPs then allowing off-map for Def doc as a result.. which only goes down the path of mirrored factions.

[Warhawks97]

I think what i am trying to say here isn't "look, they can do it too" but rather how the 2 CP 105 howitzer in Def doc actually isn't that much of a big deal as some players try to persuade us.. from a balance point of view; there are several ways to counter it, and it doesn't automatically lead the Def player to instant victory. And from a game-play perspective; the Axis 105 howitzers aren't the only pieces of arty that are early available in the game, therefore delaying just this one wouldn't suddenly make the arty situation any better, the only achievement would be harming the Def doctrine.. there is noway to block all arty usage in early game without breaking balance either, arty is an essential part of the game and the proper method to deal with camping.

Sure, getting a certain unit doesnt mean "auto-win". But the thing is that while you have to think twice about other unlocks and if the CP and ressources are worth it, this is not the case for early and easily accessible arty. Its a no-brainer investment and usually always pays off in one way or another, even if it only means that your enemie has to invest into counters.
So there are a hell lot of unlocks with similiar CP cost and often higher ressource cost which dont really bring you as much of an boost and advantage as this unlock would be. As i said, anything that boosts your firepower this much have to cost more.

If you think about it, what kind of destructive power a single 105 adds to your army, it would easily compete with a Tiger or Pershing when considering its massive destructive potential. However, we dont find a Pershing or Tiger at 2 CP and surely not for less than 400 MP and 25 fuel.

So, you can turn and twist as much as you want, as long as people wouldnt be OK with a 375 MP and 25 fuel Tiger for 2 CP, 105 arty for this price isnt either. And saying "but cheaper units can counter it" isnt an argument. A single 25 ammo mine can essentially take a Tiger tank out of combat. Does it make a mine worth 800 MP and 160 fuel? Not at all. So you dont only have to look at "how easily can it be countered in theory" but also "how much firepower does this single unit add to my army as a whole".

Personally though, i still don't mind delaying the Def doc 105 Howitzers by requiring more tech, but CP wise; i believe it's in the right spot at the moment.. even following your 107 mortars example, which exactly shows that not everything has to be standardized the same way, the SE 120 mortar doesn't require CP but hence requires more tech on the other hand.. so we can do the same with Def doc 105 howitzers; less CP compared to inf doc (which gets off-map in the meantime) but more tech requirements instead.

That would be better than delaying Def 105 howitzer in terms of CPs then allowing off-map for Def doc as a result.. which only goes down the path of mirrored factions.

again, its not only about "standardise" but to take a loot at a units potential. A 105 literally increases your firepower and destructive power by your army by easily ten times, if not more when your army has basically just a few grens with rifles and medium AT guns.
And as long as Tank equivalents to a 105 arty, which would translate into some sort of heavy tanks, are universally not OK to be available for 2 CP and 375MP/25 fuel, so arent 105 arty units. Its a no-brainer unlock no matter what.



Edit: Comming back to the 25 pdr. Its a weird gun.
Its damage is about the same as a 75 mm pack howitzer. Its higher (125 vs 100) but has only an AoE of 7 compared to 10 of a 75 mm pack howitzer or leig. Its AoE brackets are generally also inferior.

However, for some reason, the 25 pdr damage is doubled against infantry for whatever reason. Against enemie arty the damage is reduced by 25% for both.

However its nothing compared to a 105 with its 335 base damage.

The 25 pdr is thus a weird weapon with tiny AoE compared to even smaller arty and even to mortars but insanely deadly when inf is caught in its blast radius. So think of it like its a small british mortar just with much higher damage vs inf and more range.