What are the top 3 doctrines that are hardest to play?

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kwok
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What are the top 3 doctrines that are hardest to play?

Post by kwok »

Curious to see everyone’s opinions. What are the 3 hardest doctrines to play?

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idliketoplaybetter
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Re: What are the top 3 doctrines that are hardest to play?

Post by idliketoplaybetter »

Luft, Blitz doc and RA

Unless u are the first to claim to play them on your team, u cant have it :P
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Red
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Re: What are the top 3 doctrines that are hardest to play?

Post by Red »

The friends I play with love PE Tank Support and US Armor doctrines.
So when playing Axis, I mostly play Blitzkrieg or Defensive Doctrine, but my favorite is Luft.
And when playing Allies, I normally opt for CW, either Royal Engineers or Canadians.

Hence, for Axis, Propaganda and Scorched Earth are left out. Propaganda is playable for me, but I don't like having no viable infantry. Scorched Earth I just never got used to, so for me this is definitly the most difficult on the Axis side.
As for Allies, it's US Infantry, Airborne and CW RAF which are left out. I honestly have not invested much time into those doctrines, so I cannot judge it well, as there are probably a lot of mechanics I do not understand well enough. My general understanding would be that US Airborne and CW RAF are quite powerful, just that I never took the time to learn to play them.

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Walderschmidt
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Re: What are the top 3 doctrines that are hardest to play?

Post by Walderschmidt »

Defense Doctrine, Airborne Doctrine, and Scorched Earth for me.

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Consti255
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Re: What are the top 3 doctrines that are hardest to play?

Post by Consti255 »

Depends massively on the game you are playing.
1v1s i would go for:
Propaganda , RAF, Defense
2v2s i would go for :
Prop, RAF, AB
3v3s and 4v4s:
RAF, AB, Blitz

Overall i would say, that after the recent changes, the hardest doc overall for me is RAF.
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Redgaarden
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Re: What are the top 3 doctrines that are hardest to play?

Post by Redgaarden »

My 3 picks would be Blitz, RAF, DEF.

Bltiz due to, expensive inf and tanks and hard cp choices.

RAF due to, expensive infantry and hard cp choices.

DEF due to, No real battle tank to push away infantry. Forces you to use combined arms of Tank vs Tank and Inf vs inf.
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Sukin-kot (SVT)
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Re: What are the top 3 doctrines that are hardest to play?

Post by Sukin-kot (SVT) »

Propaganda, Airborne and Panzer Support. All 3 doctrines have major design flaws like no other.

Prop basically feels like playing without a doctrine until you gained at least 8 CP. In the late game under certain circumstances it may get pretty powerful. But the concept of paper auto retreat infantry + extremely expensive tanks is a hell to manage. It requires extremely tight micro and oftentimes ends up with wasting most of the volksturm squads. Or tigers, if it gets destroyed by AA strike/arty when you got caught up while managing a bunch of volks.

AB has the worst cost to efficiency infantry in the mod (101s), which are practically rifles with very poor anti-inf performance. Even if they get garands + x2 johnsons any axis squad with MG or g43 beats them easily. Not to mention theirs close to zero AT capability. Sometimes the doc rocks if you apply early push combining HE Sherman + Strafe Run, followed by 76mm Sherman. In the late game it’s arguably the saddest doc in the entire game. Once the sky gets locked with enemy's AA you can only run around the map with your cannon fodder infantry attempting kamikaze sticky bomb attacks.

Finally, Panzer Support is not too bad overall, but it’s just too slow. Half of its command tree is oriented for heavy armour which is quite complicated to save for. The doc has some pretty cool concepts which aren’t really competitive in the current meta. It’s very fun to unlock all the buffs for panzergrenadiers and light vehicles, pushing with all the efforts the first 20 mins. However, it would normally mean that you spent 6-8 CP for that fun and your heavy armour is far away from arriving. At that point the opponent who went for heavy Churchill, Jumbo, or simply 76mm Sherman spam steamrolls you.

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Krieger Blitzer
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Re: What are the top 3 doctrines that are hardest to play?

Post by Krieger Blitzer »

Sukin-kot (SVT) wrote:
21 Jul 2022, 08:01
AB has the worst cost to efficiency infantry in the mod (101s), which are practically rifles with very poor anti-inf performance. Even if they get garands + x2 johnsons any axis squad with MG or g43 beats them easily. Not to mention theirs close to zero AT capability. Sometimes the doc rocks if you apply early push combining HE Sherman + Strafe Run, followed by 76mm Sherman. In the late game it’s arguably the saddest doc in the entire game. Once the sky gets locked with enemy's AA you can only run around the map with your cannon fodder infantry attempting kamikaze sticky bomb attacks.
i highly disagree on this one, AB 101st are nightmare with Thomspons. Not to mention the doc only gets more and more powerful in late game as it simply out-numbers and overwhelms everything, it's extremely hard to beat in the hands of a good player. it's better than RAF & Luft in my opinion...

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Re: What are the top 3 doctrines that are hardest to play?

Post by MarKr »

I would like to ask you guys to give your opinion on the topic but try to refrain from arguing the responses of others.
We wanted to have this topic to see the general opinion of players. Trying to convince others that their point of view doesn't match yours, isn't the point of this thread.
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Re: What are the top 3 doctrines that are hardest to play?

Post by Krieger Blitzer »

I kinda forgot to throw my opinion & only reacted to Sukin's part.

Personally, i think the 3 hardest doctrines to play are;
1. Panzer Support
2. Defensive
3. RAF

Panzer Support is exceptionally hard particularly with the TD path.
Defensive is rather feeble in terms of inf compared to inf doc, or RA doctrine (with Zooka Canadians).. no STGs at all, and no cheap spammable inf with MP40s until u reach the unlock that allows Pioneers to carry MP40s with the defensive bonuses, but it's usually so risky to go that path as u either need to rush for Arty & fortifications first or straight for Nashorn & TDs.

RAF is good, but it lacks proper tank mid game, specifically after taking away the flank speed from Cromwells, i'd then recommend moving Tulips from RE doc to RAF doc.

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Sukin-kot (SVT)
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Re: What are the top 3 doctrines that are hardest to play?

Post by Sukin-kot (SVT) »

Krieger Blitzer wrote:
21 Jul 2022, 10:35
Sukin-kot (SVT) wrote:
21 Jul 2022, 08:01
AB has the worst cost to efficiency infantry in the mod (101s), which are practically rifles with very poor anti-inf performance. Even if they get garands + x2 johnsons any axis squad with MG or g43 beats them easily. Not to mention theirs close to zero AT capability. Sometimes the doc rocks if you apply early push combining HE Sherman + Strafe Run, followed by 76mm Sherman. In the late game it’s arguably the saddest doc in the entire game. Once the sky gets locked with enemy's AA you can only run around the map with your cannon fodder infantry attempting kamikaze sticky bomb attacks.
i highly disagree on this one, AB 101st are nightmare with Thomspons. Not to mention the doc only gets more and more powerful in late game as it simply out-numbers and overwhelms everything, it's extremely hard to beat in the hands of a good player. it's better than RAF & Luft in my opinion...
I have been playing “new” BK for almost a year and I have never seen a single good performance of AB. Except quick wins due to OP strafe runs and huge momentum when first Shermans hit the field. In fact, I was always confident with an easy win when my opponent picked AB 1v1. It is an especially easy target for BK and Luft. Reg.5 and storms eat AB infantry for breakfast, they cost just as much MP, but have absolutely superior durability and damage output. Creds to those who picked AB in those 1v1s - it was extremely fun, I could toy with their inf as much as I want (just make sure that your AA is there), and then finish the game wherever you feel like it simply by fielding a Panther.

Funnily enough, for “good inf with Thompsons” you should better go for any other US doc. Rangers are cheaper, more durable, have upgraded Bazooka and even can camo after unlock. Ion the top of that infiltration rangers can crawl which is by far the best inf ability in the game. In the armour doc Combat engineers are also cheaper, available right away and extremely durable after the CP unlock. Moreover they have nades with better AOE and ability to repair, which is great for combo with Shermans. Jeez, both, rangers and combat engineers even have satchels. Which means that one and only advantage of 101s is their air reinforcement ability.

I have seen this “AB is stronk” opinion on the forum many times. But I’m yet to see a single competitive replay where one could actually show dominance with AB. Any notable Airborne victory is always the same:

1) Take an upper hand in the very early game by using a decent basic unit roaster of the US faction.

2) Use strafe when strong AA is not there yet and easily cause massive MP drain for the enemy. E.g. it is extremely easy to wipe luft paratroopers + mortar halftruck, or storm squad + Puma. In both cases it’s 800 MP loss for the enemy which is huge for the first 15-20 mins.

3) Rush HE Sherman and 76mm Sherman quickly after.

Now you win or you die. If you managed to cause heavy casualties and take key map sectors, you can drop airborne which is ok’ish for holding sectors behind green cover. At that point Axis won’t be able to turn the game around due to inferior positions and res income, unless Panther Ace rolls out.😁

In the other scenario, if Shermans got destroyed and you failed to secure the key sectores. It highly likely means that Axis would completely lock you down from any further advances with simple combos.

E.g. hidden Stug backed up by AA and few inf squads (even volks, or pzgrens) is already quite an uncrackable nut for AB. The enemy would then seat back bombing you with rocket arty, until the fatality aka Tiger/Panther arrives.

Note that it is probably the only allied doc that doesn’t have any solid comeback instruments. Quite strange, given that Inf and Armor doc are super solid in that sense. Rush of cheap 76mm Shermans + combat engies supported by commander arty strike does wonders. Both docs have Jumbos as a comeback unit, whilst inf doc can be quite creative with its offences - utilising CQB, arty, durable rangers and dirt cheap rifles for flanking and map control.

The bottom line is - with any other Allied doc I feel like my power in any given moment of the game is only limited with CP unlocks and resources. It’s only the AB doc that oftentimes make you feel helpless even though you have unlocked almost the entire command tree and float in MP and fuel.

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Re: What are the top 3 doctrines that are hardest to play?

Post by Consti255 »

Krieger Blitzer wrote:
21 Jul 2022, 10:35
Sukin-kot (SVT) wrote:
21 Jul 2022, 08:01
AB has the worst cost to efficiency infantry in the mod (101s), which are practically rifles with very poor anti-inf performance. Even if they get garands + x2 johnsons any axis squad with MG or g43 beats them easily. Not to mention theirs close to zero AT capability. Sometimes the doc rocks if you apply early push combining HE Sherman + Strafe Run, followed by 76mm Sherman. In the late game it’s arguably the saddest doc in the entire game. Once the sky gets locked with enemy's AA you can only run around the map with your cannon fodder infantry attempting kamikaze sticky bomb attacks.
i highly disagree on this one, AB 101st are nightmare with Thomspons. Not to mention the doc only gets more and more powerful in late game as it simply out-numbers and overwhelms everything, it's extremely hard to beat in the hands of a good player. it's better than RAF & Luft in my opinion...
This debate is not about beeing what is a better doc, its about which is hardest to play.
While you even say, AB outnumbers, means harder micro = more harder to play for me atleast.

While i like discussing AB doc in general (ive made COUNTLESS topics about this doc beeing to CP reliant and lacks certain stuff) and i also welcome the explaining from Sukin why the certain doc is hardest to play for him, id request you both to discuss it in an other topic.
Nerf Mencius

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Warhawks97
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Re: What are the top 3 doctrines that are hardest to play?

Post by Warhawks97 »

Hardest to play:

1. AB. Nothing else to add except what sukin said. I only pick AB doc when the other two US docs are picked. Dropping early spotters near vital points can be super helpfull to see where enemie is going and what their battleplan is. After that recon flight, strafe, shermans and perhaps that pack howitzer. Any investment always felt like shooting my own leg and has always been a miss-use of ressources. Until you got a bunch of AB´s with vet and HQ squad you are literally completely dependent on your teammates to hold your line. Thats why M10+ sherman combo is usually the combo i spend CP´s for over everything else.

And no matter what you fight against, even just volksgrens or sometimes only volkssturm, it feels like you have to fight a Goliath of Rock and Steel that you cant crack. The Inf is shit and the MP drain using them is massive. Going for cheap rifles in Inf doc is always the better option and spam HQ´s for 195 MP so that you can technically also reinforce anywhere, just much faster and cheaper. AB doc has no point except for recon flights. And in years i have not seen a single competent AB player that could actually do something without support by RA doc artillery and allied armor docs support.


2. Def doc. Probably it has not been my style but generally i find it hard to play. Its a nice Back-up and support doc when you have mates that keep pushing (which is barely the case since 95% of axis players just camp arround as well). So far i only rushed arty+AA and Grille. Late game beefy grens as meatshields and scouts to hold enemies in check for Grille strike.

But you just got everything for a high price (except arty which is dirt cheap in every way). 500 MP AA tank (never use them only HT), fuel expensive vehicles (hurts early game) and TD´s which shine in a few situations only. No decent medium tank for late game attacks. So you just take care of your expensive assets which are highly specialized and try to win with arty. Its the only doctrine i hate to play as and to play against. Both is a nasty pain.
Essentially you dont have assets that can fill several gaps in your army and provide mutliple capabilities as effectively as Shermans or Panzer IV H/J do.


3. TS. Same as sukin said. I never went for the TD line because i never felt its usefull unless you except to counter RE doc and have to do a job in a team. But so far i spend first 4-6 CP into that Gren/vehicle combo to finish the game asap. The other option is either Panzer IV J spam for 3 CP or F2 spam to end games fast. So far i never had to fight longer than 30 mins. But if that early rush/toy arround unlocks fail, you will struggle against enemie tank spam untill you got your own (However less than AB does). I was only once in this situation and it felt awkward not to have any means untill i caught up with tank unlocks.




Generally i find CW hard to play. They are so suseptible to artillery which cause huge MP drains, esspecially when the map gets turned upside down with barrages hitting you nonstop. However, they do have solid means to counter threats effectively and comeback stuff.
Build more AA Walderschmidt

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Sukin-kot (SVT)
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Re: What are the top 3 doctrines that are hardest to play?

Post by Sukin-kot (SVT) »

Several players have mentioned Def doc to be among the hardest to play. I would like to add that it is indeed extremely hard to play, in the sense of fun. It is an extremely boring straightforward doctrine that has zero dynamic or creativity in its concept. However, from the gameplay perspective, I would actually say that it's one of the easiest docs to play, especially in 3v3 and 4v4s. It doesn't require strategical thinking or decent micro, just dig in with everything you got: mgs, bunkers, hidden TDs, inf and casually bomb the enemy with arty, whilst investing the free MP into building extra defences for your teammates.

Back in the days when we used to play mostly 3v3 and 4v4 as SVT clan, we would always ask the weakest player to pick def.

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Re: What are the top 3 doctrines that are hardest to play?

Post by Red »

Adding to my prevous comment:
Of the Docs I believe I have some kind of clue on how to play, I find Def Doc quite difficult if it is a game with popcap. For some reason I always run into popcap issues with Def Doc.

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Redgaarden
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Re: What are the top 3 doctrines that are hardest to play?

Post by Redgaarden »

Man I want to write about def doc now. But I think I can refrain from doing it in this topic.
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CGarr
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Re: What are the top 3 doctrines that are hardest to play?

Post by CGarr »

Surprised to see a lot of people voting Def doc. Def is my go-to doctrine when playing with vets, especially these days since I no longer play everyday. I would consider it an easy doc to play at all skill levels, at least relative to a lot of other docs.

It is very easy to contribute something to a team as def doc, just blanket the map with AT guns and get a leig. You don't need to overpower the enemy, just hold ground while your team reacts (which is easy since volks and pios are dirt cheap to reinforce). If they go for arty to counter, your team will have the advantage in terms of armor unlocks (assuming you communicate with your team). In 1v1, it is versatile enough to handle all docs, you just have to be patient and know the limits of your units. However, without teammates, you are in for a LONG ass game in most cases, so be ready for a 1+ hour game unless your opponent doesn't know what they're doing.

It is great for keeping the game going until your team can get their strong units out and holding the line if they lose said units, so it pairs quite well with PS, Prop, and Blitz. You also generally have the MP to get a lot of team weapons out to support your teammates, and the leig is particularly helpful, especially at slowing CW's early game down. Your standard inf (volks, grens, pios) aren't strong enough to really push, but with good use of cover, they can always hold ground long enough for you to bring out a proper response force.

Something I see a lot which might explain peoples votes is people building 88mm flak emplacements and pantherturms. The only emplacements really worth building are the various PAK emplacements that come with the 28mm HT since those are cheap and effectively halt most allied armor, anything bigger is usually overkill. You don't need to spam them either, just use them in spots where the enemy likes to push a lot.

The focus should be on having a mobile response force that can come support your AT guns and inf, as this takes advantage of your cheap units by allowing you to cover a massive frontline with more static units while still being able to respond to rushes. The long barrel P4s are excellent for this in early-mid game, they're not the best against enemy armor but they pair extremely well with your AT guns since they are threatening enough to deter flanks or inf pushes. Late game, the JPZIV/70s pair well with stubby P4s in filling this role. Vision and intuition are key for this, you need to know where the enemies units are concentrated at all times so you can match their numbers wherever they try to push.

The 28mm HT is VITAL for def doc in the late game (unless you are 1v1ing RAF, RA, or AB). Being able to shit out heavy AT guns anywhere on the map for low cost is extremely helpful. Against churchills, the 88mm PAKs from the 28mm HT are amazing, I can't even count the amount of times I've stopped churchills from steamrolling straight to our bases with those things. It can also be used on the offensive, as if you or your team is able to push the enemy off a front for a bit, you can quickly get an AT gun deployed and camo'd, which usually means at least 1 free tank kill.

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CGarr
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Re: What are the top 3 doctrines that are hardest to play?

Post by CGarr »

As for my votes:

1. AB doc: high micro, mediocre early game, abysmal late game if your opponent knows what they're doing. It's fun to mess around with, but so easy to counter (assuming equal skill level). You need to be substantially better than your enemy to win with it in 1v1 unless they're playing PS or Prop doc, and you are useless in team games aside from AT inf spam, killing overextended heavies, and applying pressure with inf once the enemy frontline is broken. Other docs can do all of the above tasks with less micro, so its not even unique in that role.

2. PS doc: As mentioned by others, this doc just takes too long to get the ball rolling, and the high CP costs make it pretty easy to predict what they are working towards and invest in counters. That being said, if PS doc manages to get to late game, they are fucking scary in good hands. They have everything they need to both push and counter enemy pushes, no matter what the enemy uses. They can handle both spam and high value units from the enemy, as they have solid counters to all threats. PS doc requires an excruciating amount of patience to play though, and is very reliant on your team in team games to support you, as everything strong on your doctrine costs a lot of resources relative to other docs, even your cheaper units.

3. RA doc: Not much to say, they have a lot of firepower but your frontline units are joke in the mid/late game, so you are helpless without good teammates. 1v1 is pretty impossible without a massive skill advantage (unless you are able to take full advantage of CW's absurdly strong early game), and even if you are better than your opponent, you are often reliant on getting good RNG with AT guns and arty in the late game. I put them in third place because they are quite good in team games if you can coordinate with your team. While waiting for your artillery to be online, you can spam AT guns, light vehicles, and inf sections. Once you have arty, you can apply an ungodly amount of pressure on whichever enemy player is giving your team the most trouble, as well as getting cheeky picks on enemy heavies.

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Re: What are the top 3 doctrines that are hardest to play?

Post by Warhawks97 »

Sukin-kot (SVT) wrote:
21 Jul 2022, 19:21
Several players have mentioned Def doc to be among the hardest to play. I would like to add that it is indeed extremely hard to play, in the sense of fun. It is an extremely boring straightforward doctrine that has zero dynamic or creativity in its concept. However, from the gameplay perspective, I would actually say that it's one of the easiest docs to play, especially in 3v3 and 4v4s. It doesn't require strategical thinking or decent micro, just dig in with everything you got: mgs, bunkers, hidden TDs, inf and casually bomb the enemy with arty, whilst investing the free MP into building extra defences for your teammates.

Back in the days when we used to play mostly 3v3 and 4v4 as SVT clan, we would always ask the weakest player to pick def.


Thats true, even today i suggest the weakest player to pick def doc, get some aa+ arty and you are decent support.
However, whenever i played it i got into teams with players that had no idea about the game or lets say macro (tec and unit decisions). So i always ended up having to carry and keep us alive but i could never really attack and gain more ground or only after hours. If i have teammates that have at least some clues about the game and get out a few medium tanks, then everything is fine and i can support them with AA, TDs and arty easily, cheap and early. So yeah, its easy to be usefull and easy to play, but hard when you have to hold the entire line for ours while your mates get nothing done in at all. So the weakest should always pick def doc. Skills are needed elsewhere. I think thats why def doc is always so nasty.
Build more AA Walderschmidt

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