The absurdity of ambush

[Consti255]

No

+1

If you spot a TD, why would you ever approach it with a tank?
I mean it is his outspoken counter lol

[Warhawks97]

If you spot a TD, why would you ever approach it with a tank?
I mean it is his outspoken counter lol

Whats the Issue?:
You keep repeating it and i dont even know why. It will always remain a counter to it no matter if you have range/damage/pen buff. I mean in theory we could make a test. Remove range boost, drop damage/pen to like +5% instead of 25% and see what will happen when a sherman drives into an ambushed Hetzer. The Hetzer gonna win. Why you guys try to keep portraying it like TD´s would become obsolete just because they would sacrafice some ambush boosts in exchange for being cheaper than their tank counterparts.

Hetzer Example:
Lets make a quick calculation: Hetzer costs 450/50. A Sherman 76 450/55. In the open field i would argue sherman has a higher chance to win due to its turret, mobility and health advantage. From Ambush the Hetzer wins long before the sherman has come into gun range even.

Now assume Hetzer has only +5% pen and damage boost from ambush and no range buff. Its cost would be 360/50 or 380/50 instead of 450/50. The outcome would afterall be the same with the Hetzer winning the engagment. The Hetzer has the first shot with a roughly 70% pen chance. With special AP almost guranteed pen.

So the outcome would not change. But what would change is the fact that if the Hetzer gets bombed by arty in his position, replacing it would be much easier. It would also be easier to use Hetzers in pairs even further increasing the chance of destryoing enemie armor and a loss would not leave you naked on the field. And one more advantage would be that the tank could be used more actively instead of always just sitting arround.


How Range and Penetration works in BK:
Another thing is, and thats what we discussed in discord last night with erich, redgaarden and rappatix, is the way or range and penetration works.
Afterall, range brackets for tanks are shitty. Not just for tanks but all weapons in BK. Too bad you had to pick up your brother and couldnt listen. I streamed corsix till like 4 am in the morning.

The range brackets for many tanks look like this: 10/25/40/55. So literally from 55 range onwards the penetration (and everything else) does not drop further. If you add more range via ability, the range brackets do not change. So from 55 to 70 range the penetration does not drop which would actually be logical since the shell travels over a greater distance. And we have not yet entered the stage of Railguns.

What does Ambush do and why its absurd with the penetration and range system of BK in mind:
And not only does the penetration drop not continue, due to the 25% pen boost it gets the penetration at this 70 range is usually much greater than a standard shot at about 40 range would be. So a stug IV for instance without ambush has a pen chance vs Sherman 76 of 73,2% at 40 range. Now with ambush you penetrate a 76 sherman with 81,44% chance at 70 range. Just get this straight!

Perhaps someone can visualize this. The Boost you get is literally unmatched and you dont pay anything for it. No ressources, no CP, nothing and you have 0 drawbacks (even though Tiger keeps claiming ambush has drawbacks which is just not true). Ambush abilties could easily require a CP unlock or veterancy lvls or special cloaking upgrades (like Dingo has it) and it would not even be OP lmao.

The Jagdpanther and Nashorn overkill example:
Since Jagdpanther got mentioned a couple of times here. The Jagdpanther is a prime example of a unit that suffers most from the current ambush system. Why? Because it adds unnecessary overkill power and thus drives its cost to insane levels. So much so that i cant remember that i used it for the last time since the Jagdpanzer IV/70 is much cheaper while providing me with similiar capabilties as the Jagdpanther as long as i creep forward from ambush to ambush.

So to get precise here. The Jagdpanther penetrates everything with 100% chance at a range of 70 which can only be matched by Super Pershing. So you can engage EVERY allied Tank from a save distance even without ambush and has a long range dead-shot ability with vet as well as the best mobility a Tank can have so far (not looking at cromwell flank speed now). The base penetration against a Pershing at max range is 87,6% and the Pershing cant even fire back nor can it catch it. Just load APCR rounds and the penetration is 116,508% at max range to be precise. Against Jumbo its 73% and 97% with AP. The Super Pershing, the only Tank able to go 1 vs 1 against Jagdpanther, gets penetrated with a 51% chance and 68% with AP rounds. Churchills get penetrated with a 85% chance and 113% with special AP. But those are really no threat for a Jagdpanther.

So the claim Jagdpanther needs massive ambush boosts is the greatest lie in this topic. It penetrates everything with over 100% chance when it uses AP rounds (which it only needs vs very specific units) and outranges ALL tanks but SP. The SP however is a one time call in and pretty slow also.
The range brackets for Jagdpanther are 15/30/45/55. The Max range is 70. So from 55 to 70 range it doesnt even lose penetration. Ambush grants 80 which means from 55 to 80 range the penetration does not drop at all, in fact it gets even increased due to the ambush boosts! A SP can now be penetrated with a 85% chance with AP ammo from 80 Range! Just get this into your brains! The SP cant even fire back from this distance.
If the Jagdpanther would not have this brutal ambush boosts which are really not needed unless you want to insta whipe an SP, this unit could be as cheap as any other Panther basically. But instead we prefer to set a 850 MP/150 fuel tank into ambush waiting to get artied.... Great!

Nashorn is another example. Same gun and quite the same stats as Jagdpanther (actually even better). The Nashorn could be easily as cheap as 460 MP and 70 fuel. With its 70 base range it would be a great ambush unit even without receiving any buffs from it.


Fun Facts:

1. German TD´s in the past had not more then 65 base Range and 75 range from ambush. So Today Jagdpanther has almost the same base range as it once had from ambush which is now 80. and units like Jagdpanzer IV/70 had 60 base range and 70 from ambush. Today its 65 and 75 from ambush.

2. The Nashorn also had no ambush modifiers except accuracy. Its base range was 65 and ambush was 75. Today its 70 base range and 80 from ambush while also having received pen and damage boosts.

3. Despite the fact that todays TD have received a base range which once had been their ambush range, they still became a lot cheaper.

So to sum it up: TDs in the past used to have an ambush range which they have more or less today as base range. And units like nashorn did not receive any pen/damage boost and was still conceived to be one of the best and most deadly ambusher units. I think this one really sums up the how absurd the claim is that esspecially the heaviest TD´s need super strong ambsuh boosts.


Final fun fact:
I have been pushing pretty hard that units with big as guns receive a higher base range. Finally Jagdpanther/Nashorn/Elephant received a base range of 70 instead of 65 and Jagdpanzer IV/70 a base range of 65. I also fought for keeping the high ambush/stationary boosts at that time. Maybe i will find the old topics somewhere when it got discussed. At that time i had to argue hard why to boost the ranges for these units. Today people want to tell me how important the massive gun range boosts for ambush are when basically many of them didnt fire further from ambush than what is today their basic range.

Its really enjoying sometimes how people work and how quickly they get used to the luxury once given to them and call it "normal" or "necessary".


As a side note perhaps and what we discussed in discord last night. I would really like to get a rework on guns in BK in general. The way how range, penetration and accuracy work in BK is just one mess in my opinion.

[Sukin-kot (SVT)]

Hawks, you really have more fun writing long reads than actually playing the game, don’t you?

There is only one thing I’m sure in - the more mode changes, the more changes warhawks demands.

[Walderschmidt]

No.

Every time you push this hobby horse you make a suggestion that calls for a remake of the game.

Until the doctrine reworks/overhaul are considered complete, I say no to any other rework. Too many plates to spin at once.

Wald

[Sgtsmith501]

BTW let's not forget anti-tank guns and TD's in a fight vs a vehicle/tank and being able to pop back into ambush whilst rounds are still flying both ways. I guess sometimes the targeted vehicles gunner forgot where that dastardly AT unit went only for an AP shell to wake his brain up again

[Warhawks97]

BTW let's not forget anti-tank guns and TD's in a fight vs a vehicle/tank and being able to pop back into ambush whilst rounds are still flying both ways. I guess sometimes the targeted vehicles gunner forgot where that dastardly AT unit went only for an AP shell to wake his brain up again

yeah, as long as a unit is under fire or in combat any ambush ability should be disabled for a while.

[Walderschmidt]

BTW let's not forget anti-tank guns and TD's in a fight vs a vehicle/tank and being able to pop back into ambush whilst rounds are still flying both ways. I guess sometimes the targeted vehicles gunner forgot where that dastardly AT unit went only for an AP shell to wake his brain up again

yeah, as long as a unit is under fire or in combat any ambush ability should be disabled for a while.

I’d favor the player having to reclick the ambush button each time, to mechanically prevent that problem from happening entirely.

Wald