British CW Royal Artillery finishing

Talk about CoH1 or BKMOD1 in general.
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Consti255
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British CW Royal Artillery finishing

Post by Consti255 »

When you play Arty its fine in general but finishing the game without base boming is really really hard.

Your HE cromwell does no damage vs buildings, crusader AA doesnt do much damage, you got zooks on Canadians but you no satchels. In general you just lack options finishing a game gentlemen wise..

What ideas can be brought up to make it easier for them to finish or even damage building inside the Base?

Give the Sherman V from the Arty doc the ability do perma swap HE and give it the same damage model than the M4s from US.
The HE ability could be lock down behind the 1. or 2. ammo upgrade from the HQ truck to prevent an HE rush for them. This unit should just get perma HE access to finish the game not just for cheap and strong HE tanks early into the game.

Any other ideas ?
Nerf Mencius

Red
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Re: British CW Royal Artillery finishing

Post by Red »

Personally, I would be in favor of just buffing the HE gun of the Cromwell vs buildings (but not against infantry).
When it's not against def doc with MGs on the buildings, the canadian bazookas also work well in my opinion. Or, just demo charges with pioneers. :lol:

berse2212
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Re: British CW Royal Artillery finishing

Post by berse2212 »

Red wrote:
09 Jul 2021, 20:38
Personally, I would be in favor of just buffing the HE gun of the Cromwell vs buildings (but not against infantry).
Why not buffing the Cromwell's HE against infantry? In my eyes it kinda sucks right know and I am curious why it has to be this bad. I mean Sherman, PZ III and Stubby PZ IV kinda fit the same role but are far superior.
Consti255 wrote:
07 Jul 2021, 23:23
When you play Arty its fine in general but finishing the game without base boming is really really hard.

Your HE cromwell does no damage vs buildings, crusader AA doesnt do much damage, you got zooks on Canadians but you no satchels. In general you just lack options finishing a game gentlemen wise..

What ideas can be brought up to make it easier for them to finish or even damage building inside the Base?

Give the Sherman V from the Arty doc the ability do perma swap HE and give it the same damage model than the M4s from US.
The HE ability could be lock down behind the 1. or 2. ammo upgrade from the HQ truck to prevent an HE rush for them. This unit should just get perma HE access to finish the game not just for cheap and strong HE tanks early into the game.

Any other ideas ?
Honestly I don't see the problem. If you have your opponent in the base he should be out of resources very soon and it should be very simple to just destroy his buildings no matter the commander.

Consti255
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Re: British CW Royal Artillery finishing

Post by Consti255 »

Playing vs Axis is always a run against the time.
Beeing in the base as axis, does not mean at all you already lost especially playing Axis doc with MP call in units like the Panther Ace or Beutepanzers.
Buffing the Cromwell HE vs buildings and infantry is the biggest no in the whole debate.
You get cromwell really fast an their speed is unmatched. Rushing into enemy bases will be super cheesy and enemy Stugs, P4s and AT units will get kited arround inside the base. There is a big reason why they are worse than the US and Axis HE tanks. Also buffing against Infantry is a no since you just pay 15 ammo for a swap between AT and HE which means you can swap it 6 times to HE before it is at the same cost than the Sherman HE. On top if that the cromwell kites infantry even more than 20mm or 30mm AA since their same as speedy and have better pathing.


Finishing a game with HE is most a valid option when you manage to hold the majority of the map the early into the mid game and play arround your better fuel income. CW arty cannot simply use it and is often forced to get into the late game.
Nerf Mencius

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MarKr
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Re: British CW Royal Artillery finishing

Post by MarKr »

Smoke the base and use Sappers? Flamethrowers should be somewhat effective against buildings. They don't bring down axis buildings in 3 seconds but a constant attacking stacks the damage over time and can bring the building down. An alternative is the Demolition upgrade for Sappers that gives them access to the Demolition ability - this should take a building down in one use but planting the charges takes time and requires ammo, so the flamethrower upgrade would be overall cheaper way to go.
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Red
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Re: British CW Royal Artillery finishing

Post by Red »

By the way, was it a conscious decision to remove the Churchill Mk VI from the Royal Artillery doc?
The CP-unlock still states this tank, but I could not produce it in a test run (only the MK IV, which is more an AT tank)

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MarKr
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Re: British CW Royal Artillery finishing

Post by MarKr »

It's a wrong text. Churchill was added in 5.2.0 and it was the Mk IV. Mk VI was never in RA.
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Red
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Re: British CW Royal Artillery finishing

Post by Red »

So would it be overly powerful to include the MK VI to RA?
Or put differently: Is the MK VI more heavily armored than the MK IV?

I mostly play RE, and there I did not get that impression, but I mostly use MK VII whenever possible...

/edit: typo corrected where I had the MK VI instead of the MK IV
Last edited by Red on 15 Jul 2021, 05:50, edited 1 time in total.

Consti255
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Re: British CW Royal Artillery finishing

Post by Consti255 »

MarKr wrote:
11 Jul 2021, 11:43
Smoke the base and use Sappers? Flamethrowers should be somewhat effective against buildings. They don't bring down axis buildings in 3 seconds but a constant attacking stacks the damage over time and can bring the building down. An alternative is the Demolition upgrade for Sappers that gives them access to the Demolition ability - this should take a building down in one use but planting the charges takes time and requires ammo, so the flamethrower upgrade would be overall cheaper way to go.
Yeah i know what you are up too, but paying 100ammo + 2 CP + ammo to unlock and than planting a charge ? Also planting a charge near the base AA? this does not work even with smoke. The Flame thrower works maybe vs WH but vs PE? no chance. Even elite squads like 82. with smoke struggels to get even in range for satchel when they are not Vetted and they have way more HP than normal Sappers and also if time goes really bad they can even fire up. So basicly you have to sacrifice your upgraded sappers and a fuck ton of ammo for clearing one base AA which the enemy is just gonna recrew with their pios.

All this is considered while there will be only the base AA defending and you know that this chase isnt real in like 99% of the games and other units are there aswell.
There is no good way to finish a game or to harass the enemy base in the mid game and EVERY other faction and doc can do that you are forced into late stages into the game especially in teamgames. When you fall behind or an enemy HE tank like a M4 or stubby is comeing near your base, pray to jeezus not to loose your bigger tier buildings, becaase you do loose them normally.

I am gonna upload some replays.
Nerf Mencius

Consti255
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Re: British CW Royal Artillery finishing

Post by Consti255 »

MarKr wrote:
12 Jul 2021, 13:07
It's a wrong text. Churchill was added in 5.2.0 and it was the Mk IV. Mk VI was never in RA.
Yes in general 3 CP for a poopy MK VI churchill is bullshit. It has only a 57mm gun with AP shots availabe. Why would you ever get that unit.
I think a swap with the MK6 and keeping it 3 CP would be fine imo and it would fix the bad finish factor aswell.
Nerf Mencius

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MarKr
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Re: British CW Royal Artillery finishing

Post by MarKr »

In the game Mk IV and Mk VI have the same armor. Against medium tanks, the 6 pounder is better than the 75mm gun. Why would you need a tank with perma HE when you already have Cromwells and in the new beta you'll have Shermans with that?

The Churchill is basically a damage sponge, you send it first and other tanks with stronger punch but weaker armor follow.
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Red
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Re: British CW Royal Artillery finishing

Post by Red »

The Perma-HE with the Canadian Shermans seems to be a major improvement for CA (former RA), so I agree, with this change it seems from a gameplay perspective no longer neceessary to include the Churchill MK VI in CA doc. For style reasons it still would be nice. ;)

Having said that, there seems to be a bug when the perma-HE on the CA Sherman is active, concearning the turret. It does not turn, but it shoots, meaning the turret can face in one direction, but shoots in another (so the HE round does not go straight from the barrel). Apart from looking funny, it mans that there is zero time needed to turn the turret in HE mode in the beta.

Consti255
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Re: British CW Royal Artillery finishing

Post by Consti255 »

MarKr wrote:
24 Jul 2021, 11:25
In the game Mk IV and Mk VI have the same armor. Against medium tanks, the 6 pounder is better than the 75mm gun. Why would you need a tank with perma HE when you already have Cromwells and in the new beta you'll have Shermans with that?

The Churchill is basically a damage sponge, you send it first and other tanks with stronger punch but weaker armor follow.
Yeah i know what you mean Markr, but is there a reason to use this damage sponge as a AT tank when you can have a Firefly for 4 CP or even 2 76 shermans for 2 CP? I think the churchill in this doc is obsolete since when this thing rolls out there are basicly bigger threads already fielded where the 6 pounder is more ore neither senseless. So it is basicly a AT tank which just sponges damage but nothing more. The Mark VI on the other hands has actuall value as a frontline tank with its good armor and its HE mode. While that you still have no Churchill CP upgrade, hull down or the way thiccer MK VII boy like RE does. Not to mention the comets etc.

Nothingless, the post was before the beta changes and the sherman HE addition.
Nerf Mencius

kwok
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Re: British CW Royal Artillery finishing

Post by kwok »

The original intent of the damage sponge with AT originally was exactly that. Former RA had plenty of anti inf and emplacement options. Giving it a thiccc anti inf/emplacement tank would be an over abundance of capability and make it become specialized again. Imagine what would a doctrine like Luft do against RA doc. The meta for RA would be so easy whereas Luft would be a single option: rush panthers.
What RA lacked was a way to push against camping armor, thing like stug, hetzer, JP spam. Imagine facing that as former RA doc. What would be the option? Fireflies would get one shorted by camo TD’s and get effectively traded no and fuel even if the player got lucky and killed the TD. The churchill with the 6 pdr allows you to push a position defended by tanks in a slow creep away, relying on artillery to pave the path from soft target threats. Given the name was formerly royal ARTILLERY that was the encouraged play style: to play around artillery.

This is what prompted the change in doctrine by the way. It felt too restricting to justify changes while keeping the namesake. Changing the name should open up more creative opportunities to tweak the doctrine. For now, the 6pdr is justified over the HE to ensure combined arms is the most viable strategy rather than trying to Rock Paper Scissors a unit type against defenses. There’s ways to crack a base with things other than arty now, let’s make that still a slight challenge rather than just walking an early available heavy tank in.

MenciusMoldbug
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Re: British CW Royal Artillery finishing

Post by MenciusMoldbug »

You can always give this doctrine the M2A4 Field Gun that has amazing range and very good emplacement/base killing power. Honestly, feel like that's the only thing really lacking in this doctrine, and I don't know why RAF gets to hog all the good stuff in its tetrarch glider.

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