v5.3.0 (Tiger vs Kwok)

[Krieger Blitzer]

Me as AB doc vs Kwok as Blitz doc on a big 1v1 map.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uP1TJU-MCZg

Haven't had such a very good game since a while.

[Warhawks97]

Not bad. But why kwok never switched its tank production towards panzer IV J? Costing arround as much as an F2 but a lot more ressistant to zooks.
And you have had easier times using M10´s sometimes.

[Krieger Blitzer]

Not bad. But why kwok never switched its tank production towards panzer IV J? Costing arround as much as an F2 but a lot more ressistant to zooks.
And you have had easier times using M10´s sometimes.

AB was and still the most flexible doctrine in 1v1 games, before & after the re-works.. in my opinion.

Before the re-work AB was better than Luft in 1v1 due to snipers + Quad + flame nades & finally an HE Sherman + airstrikes here and there.

And after the re-work, it's still the most flexible, if not more than ever... Thompsons everywhere

[MEFISTO]

Not bad. But why kwok never switched its tank production towards panzer IV J? Costing arround as much as an F2 but a lot more ressistant to zooks.
And you have had easier times using M10´s sometimes.

AB was and still the most flexible doctrine in 1v1 games, before & after the re-works.. in my opinion.

Before the re-work AB was better than Luft in 1v1 due to snipers + Quad + flame nades & finally an HE Sherman + airstrikes here and there.

And after the re-work, it's still the most flexible, if not more than ever... Thompsons everywhere

You forget the 75mm artillery that only require motor pool upgrade vs luftwaffe LeIG-18 Infantry Gun that require 6 CP plus Gebirgsjager and 75 ammunition to be deploy.

[Sukin-kot (SVT)]

Good game indeed. It was nice to see that Kwok used rather unusual tactics, heavy mid-game investments without typical Panther rush. As for AB... actually, it is another perfect example of how mediocre the doctrine is. The god mighty strafe run caused Kwok to bleed hard on MP, how many squads and vehicles did it wipe? Must be over 3k MP. Then Shermans finished the job. There are no doubts that it's an effective strategy, especially in 1v1, but the power of the doc is essentially in that one ability and a couple of other basic units (e.g. M20). AB infantry struggled to cut even through the weakest axis units - pz4 F2, volks and sometimes even pioneers with MP40.

[Krieger Blitzer]

Good game indeed. It was nice to see that Kwok used rather unusual tactics, heavy mid-game investments without typical Panther rush. As for AB... actually, it is another perfect example of how mediocre the doctrine is. The god mighty strafe run caused Kwok to bleed hard on MP, how many squads and vehicles did it wipe? Must be over 3k MP. Then Shermans finished the job. There are no doubts that it's an effective strategy, especially in 1v1, but the power of the doc is essentially in that one ability and a couple of other basic units (e.g. M20). AB infantry struggled to cut even through the weakest axis units - pz4 F2, volks and sometimes even pioneers with MP40.

AB inf aren't meant to be stronger than this.. it's the downside.
And i think the number of AB units on the field - at once - is always higher, and they can maintain their ground better thanks to air reinforce. And gosh, ever since the Thompsons were buffed some patches ago, now they deal enough damage even in mid range. I think giving 101st Thompsons was actually a bit too much... They should have Grease instead.

[Warhawks97]

Good game indeed. It was nice to see that Kwok used rather unusual tactics, heavy mid-game investments without typical Panther rush. As for AB... actually, it is another perfect example of how mediocre the doctrine is. The god mighty strafe run caused Kwok to bleed hard on MP, how many squads and vehicles did it wipe? Must be over 3k MP. Then Shermans finished the job. There are no doubts that it's an effective strategy, especially in 1v1, but the power of the doc is essentially in that one ability and a couple of other basic units (e.g. M20). AB infantry struggled to cut even through the weakest axis units - pz4 F2, volks and sometimes even pioneers with MP40.

AB inf aren't meant to be stronger than this.. it's the downside.
And i think the number of AB units on the field - at once - is always higher, and they can maintain their ground better thanks to air reinforce. And gosh, ever since the Thompsons were buffed some patches ago, now they deal enough damage even in mid range. I think giving 101st Thompsons was actually a bit too much... They should have Grease instead.

Weak side? That confuses me now. First people complain about air power being too strong/AA too weak and that the focus of this doc should be infantry. Now you say inf should be their downside? I burst in laughing now.


So... how is this doc going to be in your vision? Airstrike? AA got buffed to be actually usefull. In 1 vs 1 airstrikes may be potent but in teamfights one player that gets AA is enough to keep skies clear.

Armor? Well, they spend 4 CP just to unlock some basic stuff.

Inf? It should be their downside?

Maybe we should add tactial nuke rounds for the pack howitzer?

[Krieger Blitzer]

Where did u get that i said that inf should be their weak side??

The doc in my vision should be reliant on inf, however.. not as single/individual strong units.. but more in masses they would be strong together, just as they are now.. so that's what i meant by saying "AB inf aren't meant to be stronger than this" otherwise they would have to be less spammy.

[Sukin-kot (SVT)]

I don’t think they are spammy at all. Maybe in the late game with all the supply yard and CP upgrades, when they don’t die like flies and you have bigger MP income. But in the mid game…I think that in this match Kwok produced as many Storms as you did 101s and 82nd. Then he kept loosing them due to Strafe runs and it essentially made the game. Otherwise the Panther Ace would have rolled out gaining the total control of at least the half of the map.

Anyways, this way to play AB is certainly effective. However, I think that old AB doc with potent inf was way more fun for both sides then this annoying Strafe + Sherman Combo. Axis have an incredibly hard time against it as strafe can wipe out your expensive inf as well as vehicles, whilst Shermans are better than PZ4 or Stugs by a mile. Thus, oftentimes this match up is a race - rush with Strafe and Shermans before the Panther rolls out. Otherwise you are gonna have a hard time since there is no aggressive counter against Panther when the sky is locked.

[Simon]

map is .

[kwok]

map is .

Why thank you

[Consti255]

I agree on Sukin and Hawks here.
Giving 101st the Grease gun and nerf them even more?
No ty. They already dont get played that often with SMGs anymore since they loose most engagements upclose even with Thompsons.
I mostly give them just johnsons and garands and use them like volks, since they are volks without any CP.
Kepp in mind they still have the shitty M1A1 carbine, which is worse than the garand on range and worse than MPs up close. Also has terrible stats when shot on the move. Fallschirms drop with 2 FGs and 4 MP40s and a free shrek, UAS come with 2x STGs and 4x MP40s. You drop with 6 poopy M1A1s and a RL. Are this 15 MP really that much of a cost discount ? Fallschirms also has less cooldown.
I know, we dont compare docs in general, since the overall factions are so different, but damn objectively the 101st are the worst out of the air doc units costing 2 CP.

I enjoy playing AB (mostly) but when it comes to AT optiones, damn this Doc is so hard to make it work, especially in 2v2s and 3v3s (which are the majority of games played).
Since the AA buffs the rocket plane plus bomb plane does struggle alot in those games and you are forced to play with 101st AT only sqauds to kill a Panther,Tiger or any big cat.
Whichare btw insane amounts of MP and CP you have to put into.
385 for the 101st, x2 400MP for the 82. Just to have a dedicated AT only sqaud, it takes as much as a Panther ace call in.
Also, the RL is just so shitty, it bounces anyday so its a crit gun, that doesnt crit, since it doesnt pen. Even with the accuracy buffs, the thing is shitty.
I like the overall design aspect of it beeing a crit heavy gun, but when it doesnt pen its wackshit.

You cannot rely on 17pounders or Achillies like RAF (funny btw, that a M10 costs as much as a Achillies CP wise)

[Sukin-kot (SVT)]

I would add that cost alone doesn’t mean anything. It makes much more sense to speak about cost/efficiency ratio. At that point 101s are the worst inf unit in the game. Like I said many times, their performance at best worth 315 MP, a bit more than rifles for the air reinforcement possibility.

I’d rather see stupidly OP Strafe run being nerfed and 76mm Shermans kicked out in return for the proper buff to HQ team, 101s, recoiless, and bomb run. Removal of the thunderbolt patrol makes zero sense given the state of current AA. Even 2 20mm trucks would have shut down that patrol on a 2v2 map.

[Consti255]

i agree, the 76 makes 0 sense in this doc. I never go for it, when i can have Hellcats and M10s for 2 CP.
I was going to make a sugesstion anyway about the air patrol comeback.

What i would like to see maybe:

a call in unit possible by the HQ sqaud so they stay as a command unit.

6 men paradroped called the 506. Easy Company (the boys from BandofBrotehers)

Limited by 1 at a time.

Upgrades are Weapon packages:

AT package: 2x M6AC3 zooks 1x RL 3x Thompsons
Abilitys: Trackbreacker, stickys, smoke grenade, Fire up.

Sabotage (available after special training upgrade): 6x Thompsons
Abilitys: Boobytraps, stategic point disable, stun grenade, satchel charge

Line Infantry package: 2x Browing M1919 4x Garand (2 Bars would fit also, but they have to get buffed before introduced here)
Abilitys: grenade, button down, supression ability

Unlocked for 2 CP after the HQ sqaud as a standalone option.


This sqaud could fit thematicly, buff the AT options while also give AB a little bit more unique playstyle with boobys or the ability to hold ground with the line infantry package.

[MarKr]

This is the same thing over and over again. Someone says that they have no problem playing AB, to which you basically say "OK, but I want to play it differently". So what now? Should we change every doc whenever someone complains that they want to play it differently? If it is so unplayable/unfun for you to use, you still have the other two US docs.

The cherry on top is how people keep comparing the 101st to Fallshirms and pretty much keep saying that 101st should perform like Fallshirms. When we added the 50mm mortar to PE, people complained that we make "mirror units" (so similar/same = bad) and here suddenly "similar/same = good".

And it keeps coming to "101st sucks" either with weapons, where people say stuff like "the shitty M1A1 carbine, which is worse than the garand on range and worse than MPs up close" but somehow keep forgetting that for most Axis units MP40s are payed upgrade, at least the lower-tier units. Some higher-tier units come with MP40 but there you compare different tiers. People also keep omiting the fact that you can swap your least useful resources (fuel) for your most useful resource (ammo). You can use your AB engineers to scavenge ammo and fuel from wrecks for even more resources. You can get MP upkeep upgrades that increase your MP income and so practically pushing the costs of your units lower. You can paradrop manned MGs and Mortars, so you don't need to go through the whole "drop weapon for ammo - crew it with infantry - pay MP to reinforce the infantry again" loop, yet the MG alone can solve many of those "weaker infantry" problems you keep mentioning because what does it matter if your opponent has MP40s when you suppress them before they get close? Luft has none of these things yet people seem to keep coming up only with suggestions that will make the AB infantry a lot more self-sufficient and in general will make a lot of the the rest of the unlock tree pointless in comparison and so that infantry will be an "always rush first" unlock (doesn't it sound like the previous SAS problem?...anyone?)

I get it, all of this takes a lot of micro to pull off, but is it really bad just because micro-heavy playstyle isn't your style? Or because you would like to play it differently?

EDIT:
"one at a time Rambo unit" with bazookas and possible double MGs and what not is a big no from me, same as the return of patrols.
And wait for Hawks to read about giving any unit the Treadbreaker

[Consti255]

I mean what is "differently" and what is a "different tier"

And of course it is funny if people compare them, but Markr, both are paradroped, both are 2 CP and both cost arround the same.
So saying people should not compare them is pretty senseless because they will.

Why would it be a rambo unit?
The SS sqaud can get 2 MG42s aswell. Sections and Rifle commandos can get 2 Brens.
The Supression Sqaud have 2 MG42s by default.
No one of these are Rambo units.

And you said it by yourself.
Axis MGs are flat out better.

Rushing this unit?
They cost 8 CP after what i thought could maybbe work an satisfy you and the players that were big fans of the old HQ sqaud.
Its a big difference if you can get a 7 men sqaud for 2 CP or 6 men sqaud for a total if 8.
Rushing those, would be a big commitment and limit you ability to unlock planes and other stuff.

[MarKr]

And of course it is funny if people compare them, but Markr, both are paradroped, both are 2 CP and both cost arround the same.
So saying people should not compare them is pretty senseless because they will.

They shouldn't because it is one unit whose only common feature is that they get to the battlefield on a parachute and can reinforce anywhere. That's like comparing Rangers to Storms because "they both come from a light offmap vehicles with an MG on top". When was the last time you saw someone requesting Rangers to get "more HP as Storms because they both get spawned form a vehicle"? Furthermore, a unit doesn't fight on its own - it part of a doctrine with all of the doc's abilities and other units. As I said:

And it keeps coming to "101st sucks" either with weapons, where people say stuff like "the shitty M1A1 carbine, which is worse than the garand on range and worse than MPs up close" but somehow keep forgetting that for most Axis units MP40s are paid upgrade, at least the lower-tier units. Some higher-tier units come with MP40 but there you compare different tiers. People also keep omiting the fact that you can swap your least useful resources (fuel) for your most useful resource (ammo). You can use your AB engineers to scavenge ammo and fuel from wrecks for even more resources. You can get MP upkeep upgrades that increase your MP income and so practically pushing the costs of your units lower. You can paradrop manned MGs and Mortars, so you don't need to go through the whole "drop weapon for ammo - crew it with infantry - pay MP to reinforce the infantry again" loop, yet the MG alone can solve many of those "weaker infantry" problems you keep mentioning because what does it matter if your opponent has MP40s when you suppress them before they get close? Luft has none of these things

Why would it be a rambo unit?
The SS sqaud can get 2 MG42s aswell. Sections and Rifle commandos can get 2 Brens.
The Supression Sqaud have 2 MG42s by default.
No one of these are Rambo units.

OK, maybe not a Rambo unit, but it will be overall just better than anything else you have because the AT package will make 82nd pointless, the "frontline" package will make 101st and the para MMG teams pointless. I highly doubt you would ask this squad to have same "defensive" stats as 101st, not even as 82nd so, as I said, it will only lead to the same problem that former SAS had - extremely versatile squad that is so good that it will overshadow pretty much everything else you have.

However, there is still the thing that you're asking to change something that works only to make the doc work more along your prefered playstyle. Which leads back to:

Should we change every doc whenever someone complains that they want to play it differently?

[Consti255]

Thats why it should be limited by 1 at the time. So you have to choose what you want. They are versitile, but just one sqaud.
And given to the packages, you cannot build them as versitile as the SS sqaud for example.
SAS were limited by 3. So yo could have 1 AT, 1 LMG and one SMG sqaud with 7 men each and also rust for 2 CP.

And no, it wouldnt make 82. useless. I mean you get 2 bazookas for free unit choices, which is really dope. Same goes for the 101st.
82. have passive camo, the suggested 506. sqaud not (unless with the sabotage package).
Also, the dropable MG would never get obsolete, even when you have such a sqaud i suggested. 300MP for a infantry deny unit which can be reinforced by air ? While also costing just 1CP!! The new one would cost 8CP in total.

Also, the cost of this unit would justify how versitile they are. i think 500MP would be a good call. Same as the SS but 50MP on top for the para reinforce. Speakling about unit costs, MP as US is not comparable with Axis or CW overall since they have the supply yard which kicks in pretty hard when you play AB.

Okay with the storms, but doesnt have the 101st even the same stats as the FsR5 when both have no CP upgrades? Or am i wrong, i am not quite sure.
And were is the overall difference from the 101st to the FsR5 ? Both can get shot range weapons and long range once.Both drop with a free AT weapon. Both have grenades and abilitys to clear emplacements (assault and satchel charge). Both costing the same CP and roughly the same MP.

If you look at rangers and storms, i completely agree with you, the are ALOT different and it is fine as it is like this. Ability wise and also weapon wise.
But 101st and Fallschirms....eeehhh. They are pretty similar when it comes to overall purpose.

[Krieger Blitzer]

101st were used in masses, like the Normandy landing... They are not elite inf.
Whereas the FJR were elite troops. You are still comparing units individually, but you need to see the bigger picture... AB doctrine - as a whole - is very flexible, more than any other doc in my opinion.

I think the things we need to focus on for the next beta update, are as follows:

# Balance:
- improving regular Storms, and giving Demo Storm squad MP40 by default.
- Tweaking SAS (i think the best idea is 1 para squad with Bars & Shotgun, and 1 sabotage unit crawling by default).

# Bugs:
- Nashorn silent gun.
- SATCHEL & BUNDLE grenades movement glitch.

# Others:
- Command vehicles should share/gain xp at bigger range.
- Crusader, B1 jackson, Wirblewind, Ostwind, Mobelwagen should not be affected by vision/sight reduction...
& M5 Stuart should be affected imo.

Lastly, maybe ST buff? (I would be for adding tank shock & nearby inf reinforce while making it 1,000 MP call-in)

We shouldn't focus on changing any docs anymore.

[Consti255]

I agree on your suggestions.

[Consti255]

lol saying they werent elite troops is super dumb.
They were one of the most trained US forces till D-Day.

Fallschirmjäger were also deployed in masses in the battle of crete. Absolute nonesense to speak about that 101st werent elites.
They are way more elites than Stormtroops for example. Historical wise atleast.

AB is just wired right now thats my point. The 76 sherman will never get unlocked when playing this doc and is overall not fitting nor necessary in this doctrine due to the fact that you got M4s and M10,Hellcats. It takes away a slot in the CP tree which could be used better.

And yes AB is kinda flexible, but damn, did you ever look at the CP costs of everything? They are tremendous compare to every other doc.
So why would you ever spend 2 CP for a 76 sherman, when you NEED your CP for everthing else.

I agree with your suggestions right there, still i think AB could be looked at.

[Krieger Blitzer]

lol saying they werent elite troops is super dumb.
They are way more elites than Stormtroops for example. Historical wise atleast.

This is not true... it's a common misconception that AB inf were elite. The truth is; unlike British Commandos, the AB troops were mediocre infantry. The most elite US inf were the Marines & Rangers.. not AB units.

On the other hand, FJR are equivalent to British Commandos.

The 76 sherman will never get unlocked when playing this doc and is overall not fitting nor necessary in this doctrine due to the fact that you got M4s and M10,Hellcats. It takes away a slot in the CP tree which could be used better.

Not really, in this game for example.. i ended the game by spamming 76 Shermans in late stage.

I agree with your suggestions right there

Glad to hear.

[Sukin-kot (SVT)]

However, there is still the thing that you're asking to change something that works only to make the doc work more along your prefered playstyle. Which leads back to:

Should we change every doc whenever someone complains that they want to play it differently?

So....why did you change cool previous AB doc to OP Strafe run, Sherman spam and Copy-Paste HQ team then? What was the reason?

[MarKr]

So....why did you change cool previous AB doc to OP Strafe run, Sherman spam and Copy-Paste HQ team then? What was the reason?

Apart from the thing that your previous "cool AB" was played around only 3 aspects of its arsenal?
1) get 101st and use the "sprint to enemy - throw flame nade - win the engagement" that left little-to-none room for counterplay
2) use bombing plane to destroy any tank, emplacement or infantry formation (a.k.a "everything")
3) usage of HQ squad which had an out of place mish-mash of very long range (sniper), very short range (SMGs) and AT weapons which people used pretty much just as a way to get their hands on another sniper to bleed opponent's MP

And thus 101st was in most situations "retreat once the flame nade is out or lose your squad" unit. At the same time using one "OP" plane ability was cool but replacing it with another was suddenly not "cool"? And squads with snipers in general lost the snipers so no reason for it to stay in the HQ squad + the whole thing that the command squads should not be the ones who do more killing than the units they command.

So...it was cool because it required using 3 things over and over and maybe occasionally some other unit on the side instead of actually using other stuff that the doc offers and combining units together? If you say "yes", then we're back at "your preffered play style".

I feel like I've explained this several times already, so I doubt it will stick this time...

[Warhawks97]

This is not true... it's a common misconception that AB inf were elite. The truth is; unlike British Commandos, the AB troops were mediocre infantry. The most elite US inf were the Marines & Rangers.. not AB units.

On the other hand, FJR are equivalent to British Commandos.

Oh, well... Marines are the regular ground forces of the Navy. They are said to be tough but they are not an elite special unit. Rangers were based on the idea of elites and commandos had been their model. But they accomplished different tasks during the war.


But no matter what, when you jump behind enemie lines at night prior to an invasion you are essentially an elite force. Just their numbers and missions and fight style had been a bit different from units like the SAS.

Fallschirmjägers essentially had the same role, just that they often didnt jump out of planes and instead got used in the defense. And if they jumped then mostly over friendly territory as some sort of quick reaction defense force. Their last mission as an offensive unit was over crete. Towards the end of war most fallschirmjägers did not even receive any training in regards to jumping out of planes and using parachutes. They were essentially just infantry units just using the name fallschirmjägers. So, from that perspective they wouldnt even jump out of planes anymore in BK. In vcoh they spawned out of houses btw.

So calling FJR Elite forces and comparing them with commandos and calling AB medicore basic inf on parachutes and complete mistake. Fallschirmjägers had "one commando moment" when rescuing Mussolini.


Essentially you cant compare them to the commandos (depending about which we speak, brits had many) or SAS. But they were extremely tough whatsover able to hold their ground on their own many times during the war and against all odds. In BK, sadly, even volkssturms and pios can just like that walk over them.