beating panthers

[Viper]

Its not like axis got better armored tanks than the panther or are stuck on the 75mm gun . Oh wait.

Allies next best gun besides the 90mm and 17pounder is the 76mm and no other.
So US is stuck with the 90mm to counter Panthers and UK with 17 pounders.

Also the SP with its long 90mm comes in. Still waiting again on that argument that allies got that one big gun. (in one doc,once a game).

Axis got the normal 75mm,the long 75mm, the Kwk36 88mm and the long 88mm and EVEN the 128mm JT gun.
Every gun except the normal L48 is guranteed to pen a pershing.
Also they got more than only one unit which carry the guns. While the US side only got 2 units.
I am not talking about the general Unit design but just over the 75 axis vs the 76 allied gun.
Compare the 75mm gun and the 76 is kinda bs.

YEEEEEEES......bravo, you finally got the source of the problem........so why are allies stuck with 76 because people like you are against adding 90mm guns to doctrines that need them........simple

[Consti255]

PE got henschels aswell?

[Consti255]

Its not like axis got better armored tanks than the panther or are stuck on the 75mm gun . Oh wait.

Allies next best gun besides the 90mm and 17pounder is the 76mm and no other.
So US is stuck with the 90mm to counter Panthers and UK with 17 pounders.

Also the SP with its long 90mm comes in. Still waiting again on that argument that allies got that one big gun. (in one doc,once a game).

Axis got the normal 75mm,the long 75mm, the Kwk36 88mm and the long 88mm and EVEN the 128mm JT gun.
Every gun except the normal L48 is guranteed to pen a pershing.
Also they got more than only one unit which carry the guns. While the US side only got 2 units.
I am not talking about the general Unit design but just over the 75 axis vs the 76 allied gun.
Compare the 75mm gun and the 76 is kinda bs.

YEEEEEEES......bravo, you finally got the source of the problem........so why are allies stuck with 76 because people like you are against adding 90mm guns to doctrines that need them........simple

You dont get the point.
Adding heavy TDs to all allied docs wouldnt just simple kill the variety of docs. It would just been a hardcore buff for allies lol.
AB with Jacksons... LoL.

I dont get the point that you guys want to sacrifice every allied doc just to let the Panther be as it is.

[Viper]

You dont get the point.
Adding heavy TDs to all allied docs wouldnt just simple kill the variety of docs. It would youst been a hardcore buff for allies lol.

yes.......thank you......i want a hardcore buff for allies.....super happy with it.
now leave panther alone.

[Consti255]

You dont get the point.
Adding heavy TDs to all allied docs wouldnt just simple kill the variety of docs. It would youst been a hardcore buff for allies lol.

yes.......thank you......i want a hardcore buff for allies.....super happy with it.
now leave panther alone.

#notbiased

[Viper]

yes.....i am very biases to allies.....i want to hardcore buff them.

it's what i hope the most.....now add jackson to ab doctrine please.

[MEFISTO]

This whole thing sounds to me like allies only have 76mm Shermans to kill panthers and tigers and that is not true.

[Warhawks97]

The philosophy of allied is mainly to stick with many 76 mm units. In vcoh only one Pershing existed. Now imagine lots of 90 mm tanks in conjuction with supply yard.


Axis have different units with different powerful guns. Adding more guns of the same type doesn't mean same tanks. But adding more 90 mm guns means lot more Jack's which means being more boring.

[MEFISTO]

The philosophy of allied is mainly to stick with many 76 mm units. In vcoh only one Pershing existed. Now imagine lots of 90 mm tanks in conjuction with supply yard.


Axis have different units with different powerful guns. Adding more guns of the same type doesn't mean same tanks. But adding more 90 mm guns means lot more Jack's which means being more boring.

Armor have 90mm
Airborne have airstrike plus a lot a ammunition coming from package drop
Infantry have artillery and Jackson 90mm (need to improve its accuracy)
And all this doctrines have 76mm plus supply yard.
Doctrines have strength and weaknesses.

[MarKr]

Question, what are the chances of a PIV to penetrate a Pershing? And 76mm vs panthers?

At max range the chance for any 75mm L48 gun to penetrate Pershing is 20% (no buffs from AP ammo or camo).

The chance for 76mm guns to penetrate a Panther at max range differs based on type of Panther and if it has skirts or not, so it is between 14-17%.

[MEFISTO]

Question, what are the chances of a PIV to penetrate a Pershing? And 76mm vs panthers?

At max range the chance for any 75mm L48 gun to penetrate Pershing is 20% (no buffs from AP ammo or camo).

The chance for 76mm guns to penetrate a Panther at max range differs based on type of Panther and if it has skirts or not, so it is between 14-17%.

that is not fair for pershings, they had better armor than tiger 1 and panthers, they were equal in a fight because they 3 had powefull gun.
they all should have 20% or 17%.

[Krieger Blitzer]

At max range the chance for any 75mm L48 gun to penetrate Pershing is 20% (no buffs from AP ammo or camo).

The chance for 76mm guns to penetrate a Panther at max range differs based on type of Panther and if it has skirts or not, so it is between 14-17%.

Yup.

Hence i said:

Not answering on behalf of MEFISTO here but i think 76 cannon chances vs Panther should be as low as 75mm L48 chances vs Pershing, which - currently - they almost are. At no point should the 76 performance become as effective as 40% or 35% at max range as some players suggest, as this in my opinion would be extremely high because 76mm guns are a standard US weapon.

And then i also followed saying:

Generally, i don't really get annoyed when i see Panther bouncing off stuff, because i can still kill them anyway.
Although i would honestly love to see Pershing bouncing off more stuff, not saying their armor is not good enough now.. but won't hurt if it could be a bit better i guess... That's a subject for another day, though.

I would like to see Pershing also more resistant vs Axis big cannons.
And as we can see here, whenever the "Panther issue" is discussed.. they always come down to "We think Panther is OP because US docs rely on 76mm and nothing else" which is actually a problem with Allied docs, not the Panther...

Thus, it would be surely great to improve Allies instead of nerfing Panther.

[Warhawks97]

I think the pershing doesnt really need better armor. I like the fact that a well hidden IP Iv can take out Pershings.

[Krieger Blitzer]

The philosophy of allied is mainly to stick with many 76 mm units. In vcoh only one Pershing existed. Now imagine lots of 90 mm tanks in conjuction with supply yard.


Axis have different units with different powerful guns. Adding more guns of the same type doesn't mean same tanks. But adding more 90 mm guns means lot more Jack's which means being more boring.

vCoH is nothing valid to mention here.. also, i know you (Hawks) are the kind of player who loves to play with hordes of 76 Shermans all the time (you don't really like to play with heavy tanks at all) but your preference here doesn't mean that Allied should only be played that way.

Also, now Axis have big cannons in all docs.. and it's not boring. So; i don't see how adding more big cannons (90mm guns) for Allied would be boring.

I think the pershing doesnt really need better armor. I like the fact that a well hidden IP Iv can take out Pershings.

Pershing had 152mm thickness of steel on various frontal armor parts.. so yes, it actually deserves better resistance.

[Warhawks97]

I think the pershing doesnt really need better armor. I like the fact that a well hidden IP Iv can take out Pershings.

Pershing had 152mm thickness of steel on various frontal armor parts.. so yes, it actually deserves better resistance.

I think thats why pershings are overall less annoying. They have good armor but you can still beat them by placing units smart.

And all that "has this much armor" is always a theoretical debate. The Hetzer, in theory, could never take out an IS 2, yet there are records of combat during which a group of hetzer knocked out several IS2 during a retreat fight near a town.
Tank combat is a lot more than just armor thickness and gun penetration in theory. So any tank can, when placed smartly, take out a vastly superior tank. If you ambush it and have a skilled gunner, you can wait, load APCR/HVAP rounds and aim for some weak spots present on all tanks.

I think in BK one big issue is, that tanks often have completely usless armor or god-like armor. Thus positioning becomes less and less relevant. If you dont have the tools unlocked to counter it, you are doomed. Consequently people always have to rush something to counter the enemies stuff because no matter how smart you play, if you dont have that one certain tool, you get fucked.
In this regard, when a pershing is coming for you and you dont have the right tool to handle it (eg JP IV/70), you still have good chances to fuck him up when you have two Jagdpanzer IV/48 or Hetzer and perhaps a stug provided by a teammate.

Units on the other hand that "cant be outplayed" basically, are breaking most strategy games. Even when you put 3 M10 into ambush shooting from different angles, you still lose likely 1-2 of them and the Panther is perhaps still alive.
Hence, Pershings are less of a cancer unit that can be beaten by smart playing, good positioning and ambush methods.

[Consti255]

I think the pershing doesnt really need better armor. I like the fact that a well hidden IP Iv can take out Pershings.

Pershing had 152mm thickness of steel on various frontal armor parts.. so yes, it actually deserves better resistance.

I think thats why pershings are overall less annoying. They have good armor but you can still beat them by placing units smart.

And all that "has this much armor" is always a theoretical debate. The Hetzer, in theory, could never take out an IS 2, yet there are records of combat during which a group of hetzer knocked out several IS2 during a retreat fight near a town.
Tank combat is a lot more than just armor thickness and gun penetration in theory. So any tank can, when placed smartly, take out a vastly superior tank. If you ambush it and have a skilled gunner, you can wait, load APCR/HVAP rounds and aim for some weak spots present on all tanks.

I think in BK one big issue is, that tanks often have completely usless armor or god-like armor. Thus positioning becomes less and less relevant. If you dont have the tools unlocked to counter it, you are doomed. Consequently people always have to rush something to counter the enemies stuff because no matter how smart you play, if you dont have that one certain tool, you get fucked.
In this regard, when a pershing is coming for you and you dont have the right tool to handle it (eg JP IV/70), you still have good chances to fuck him up when you have two Jagdpanzer IV/48 or Hetzer and perhaps a stug provided by a teammate.

Units on the other hand that "cant be outplayed" basically, are breaking most strategy games. Even when you put 3 M10 into ambush shooting from different angles, you still lose likely 1-2 of them and the Panther is perhaps still alive.
Hence, Pershings are less of a cancer unit that can be beaten by smart playing, good positioning and ambush methods.

yup.
As it should be.
Same goes for the Panther. well hidden M10s/Hellcats/Jackson/Achillies should deal with it.
Axis got even thicker armor than the Panther to rely on.

[MEFISTO]

Panthers are too expensive, easy to beat by Pershings(I am ok with that) today another 76mm 1 shot, they are no worth for the price, Achilles easy hit, so do what ever you want with that expensive junk but reduce it’s price, it not worth, pls improve stormtroopers path, demolition and stormtroopers should come together and crawl should cost less not 7cp, the call in should come with a stug III instead a PIII, It will give better support to stormtroopers vs tanks (that will be a real infantry support).
75mm artillery should be available in the Skirmish HQ after upgrade to assault face, some times there is no any building to upgrade to a field HQ so you don’t have access to it.