1 h 25 min game with usless 90 mm units

[Warhawks97]

3 vs 3

Me (armor)
Coolstantin (inf)
John Matrix (RE)

vs

Royal Companion (TS)
Dzhulai (BK)
Tokamiszi (def)




1. 90 mm Tanks SUCK. They fail to hit everytime, they dont do enough damage and get killed in return and they eat all your ressources. I had all supply yard upgrades and when i started with 90 mm tanks i was quickly out of fuel. The Pershings never won a 1 vs 1 engagment. Not even vs damaged Panthers!

2. Panther Bunkers that keep shooting regardless whether its crewed or not. You get a Priest for flame shots and these things still kill your units. Every emplacment can be taken over, but not silly bunkers with Nazi concrete loyal to the Führer. Even without crew. Fucking Zombie Nazi concrete.


3. Pershings got oneshoted more often than not, even from panzer IV´s.




That games is a good example of all the shortcomings BK has with Bunkers and cost effective counters to Panther spam.


For those who dont know what is cost effective: Nashorn kills up to 3 tanks before even receiving return fire. Jacks doesnt even kill one unit close in front of it. With luck i think i got two Panthers.

[F31.58]

Thanks Kwok

[MarKr]

35:31 - first 90mm shot in this game. Shot taken by M36 at a Panther, Panther killed with the first shot

35:37 - second Panther advances and takes a shot at the M36, shot missed; Jackson starts flank speed

35:40 - Jackson goes forward to take a shot at the Panther; shot bounced (I think AP wasn't activated); both retreat

35:55 - M36 rolls forward and takes a direct hit from arty, destroyed engine and left alive with 1 HP

36:20 - M36 destroyed after taking another 3 hits from a Maultier

39:47 - new M36 takes a shot from side from a flanking Panther; survives with about 25% HP; activates AP, takes a shot at the Panther; Panther died to the first shot

40:00 - M36 retreats for repairs (gets fully repaired at about 40:50)

44:50 - M36 driving frontally, no camo against a Panther and a Kingtiger

44:57 - Panther G (with Vet2 and Vet2 TC) which under any other circumstances "snipes" tanks in smoke, prioritizes M36, takes a shot and....misses.

45:42 - 2x 76mm Shermans and the M36 push against a Panther and a Kingtiger, KT takes a shot, kills one Sherman, M36 keeps pushing forward, there's some infantry covering it but it is a priority target for both Panther and KT.

45:55 - KT takes an aim at M36, M36 reverses, by some miracle KT doesn't take the shot, M36 survives

46:24 - M36 activated camo mode but took a shot at the repair bunker while Panther was still near; Panther moved forward, started aiming at the M36 and by some miracle again (!!!) not taking the shot and M36 escaped

46:48 - M36 activated camo, waiting to get camouflaged, PIV L70, Panther and KT coming to its location, seeing its position. Panther taking the shot, kills the M36.

49:31 - First Pershing leaves the base, TC inside.

50:00 - btw. Matrix's Firefly drove directly into JPIV L70, Firefly getting one-shot

51:00 - Pershing takes a shot at the JPIV L70, first shot, hit, JPIV destroyed

51:39 - new M36 built; Pershing continuously keeps showing its position to oponents by shooting at the repair bunker

53:03 - Pershing taking a shot at infantry, triggering reload, nearby Panther taking its chance to move against Pershing

53:10 - Panther reversing, Pershing moving forward, taking another shot at infantry, Panther taking a shot, only to miss its shot against this Pershing

53:30 - M36 taking a panzerschreck hit, taking no crit, about half HP left, reversing from them but stopping in a position where the SS squad follows it and only doesn't destroy it with another schreck thanks to Rangers that rushed against them and pushed them back.

54:02 - Panther taking a shot at infantry, Pershing moving in to use the opportunity to take a shot, Pershing fires (I don't think you activated AP), shot bounces, Panther (Vet3 + Vet3 TC) fires at Pershing, misses the Pershing. Both tanks reverse.

54:16 - Pershing takes a shot at the bunker again and keeps shooting, telling the opponent team its position

54:53 - Pershing takes another shot at the bunker, Panther comes from FoW for some reason shooting at infantry first. Then moves closer to Pershing. Pershing fires, penetrates Panther, leaving it with little less than half HP. Panther fires and misses the Pershing. Pershing gets directly hit by Grille about a second later, getting destroyed main gun and only little HP left.

55:09 - Panzerschreck shooting at the Pershing, hitting ground. Panther moves in to finish the Pershing, fires and kills Pershing.

56:01 - M36 (still not fully repaired), activates flank speed, rushes from side to destroy the damaged Panther. Takes a shot, misses (the first miss of 90mm gun in this game btw).

56:26 - new Pershing built

58:28 - Panther advanced too much, camoed M36 took a shot. It was a hit but the zooka team fired at the same time and the zooka hit destroyed the Panther (nice baiting btw).

58:38 - M36 takes a shot at Bergetiger, kills it with its first shot.

59:38 - Nashorn getting camoed.

59:50 - Camoed nashorn died to something. Didn't see what, probably a direct arty hit.

01:01:20 - KT immobilized by arty.

01:01:41 - Pershing got engine damage from an arty hit.

01:02:19 - KT getting another arty crit, this time engine damage, gets further shot at by Calliope

01:02:23 - main gun destroyed by Calliope, a second later another Calli hit, KT destroyed

01:03:28 - just noticed Pershing Ace in the game, nice!

01:04:45 - Panther immobilized by stickes is getting shot at by Pershing Ace, shot missed. Panther takes a shot at Pershing Ace, hits Ace alive with about 60% HP, no crit taken. Panther keeps getting hammered by arty, destroyed after a few hits.

01:08:11 - Not sure if the Pershig took a shot at infantry and missed or at the Panther and missed.

01:08:20 - Pershing HE shot Storms, killed several of them.

01:08:31 - Pesrshing pushing alone dangerously close to Pantherturm range, trying to kill Panther. Took a shot and the shot bounced (AP was not active).

01:08:31 - Pershing keeps pursuing Panther, takes a shot from Pantherturm, shot deflected. No activates AP ammo. Panther takes another shot at Pershing, the shot misses.

01:09:21 - Pershing takes a shot on the move against PIV J, misses the shot. PIV returns fire, shot bounced off.

01:09:29 - Pershing takes another shot against PIV J, misses the shot again.

01:09:38 - Pershing takes a shot against JPIV L70, hits but bounces off.

01:10:34 - PIV J kills Pershing. Not sure what happened here it looks like rear hit crit but hard to say. Matrix had 2 76mm Shermans right there and could have destroyed the PIV J which was already damaged.

01:12:21 - Pershing Ace activates AP, fires at Panther G, penetrates, damages engine and Panther has about 40% HP left. Panther shoots back at Pershing ace, shot deflected. Pershing ace takes another shot, hits, Panther dead.

01:14:52 - Pershing ace takes a shot at Tiger, hits, Tiger has about 50% HP left. Tiger returns fire, killing Pershing ace which bursts into pink parts.

01:15:15ish - Nashorn getting serious damage from 95mm howitzer hits.

01:15:57 - Nashorn killing Croc churchill from side, then one Sherman, second Sherman managed to retreat but for some reason these three wanted to attack head-on a Tiger supported by Nashorn.

01:18:25 - Matrix sends his Shermans again into the place where the Nashorn was last placed. Nashorn is still there, killing Shermans (one directly, other took damage from AT gun and was finished off by Nashorn). Then you send your Shermans there, one takes a hit from Nashorn and survives (didn't expect that), Sherman returns fire, one-shotting Nashorn.

01:19:00 - chat rage from base campers about base bombing

All in all, I didn't see there anything that would support your claim that "90mm guns fail to hit every time". They actually hit more often than Panthers (about which you claim they "snipe everything even in smoke"). There were cases where Jacksons/Pershings one-shot Panthers and other units. Also not true that "Pershings got one shotted more often than not" - though there was the case where PIV did so. Although that was just one occasion and Shermans can do the same to Panthers so it is not some downside of Pershings specifically.

The pain of final base push and the whole basebombing chat "debate" could have been avoided if you guys played VPs. In general I get the feeling that the final base push is where many people get really annoyed because the pushing side knows they already won and it is just an unnecessary delay to victory, they start using units more recklessly, every lost unit only prolongs the game even further...really guys, VPs prevent this whole mess and also help preventing games from dragging too long, leaving less chance for desyncs.

[Warhawks97]

I was in Discord with coolstantin. So we always had to coordinate efforts. Without that we would have lost a couple of times.

Also note pls that we were lucky to somewhat dominate the game being in the offense when axis suddenly appeared with 2 or 3 Panthers at once. At that point i thought its lost. Only one Jacks was between us and the Panthers steamroling us.

The Pershing missed many shots. Idk how often i told consti in discord "omg, it missed again". But it was often. Target priorisation is another thing. Apparently bunkers are more important to be shot than panthers.


In the Majority of the games, when you are in only a slightly worse position than we were at that stage of the game, the game is lost when panther rolls out bc you know you cant kill it before the next one comes.

The Jacks had been really lucky several times.

And no, i dont use AP against full HP Panther because even if i pen, the damage is too low and the Panther oneshots me in return. So its better to keep AP rounds deactivated for a max damage shot hoping to oneshot the target. If its not dead right away, it might carry away a crit and its better to spend the ammo into arty rather than AP rounds. Artillery was simply more effective in taking out tanks than the 90 mm guns. Later, yes, with res advantage you can try to engage Panthers more aggressively. But unless you have this super res advantage there is no way you can battle Panthers in a cost effective way directly and win the match.
Panthers are either better armored and armed than the enemie is or simply more mobile. It outdanced my pershing in a few instances.

Note also pls that we actually required the ressources gained from the entire map with all points OPed just to stand the Panthers. I think you should take this into consideration as well since we talk about cost effectivness. Panthers do not need the ressources of the entire map to be effective. If the situations were reversed and Panthers had the income available from the entire map with all points OPed, we would not have survived for a minute. So consider this as well when talking about cost effectivness of 90 mm tanks.



I later told consti to just spam emplacments to draw enemie fire. Else the KT/Panther combo would have steamroled us sooner or later. Idk how many times i told him to spam emplacments in order to keep my fragile 90 mm tanks save from tank shots and unwanted schreck surprises.

And in terms of cost effectivness: A Nashorn can handle three tanks at once with ease mostly. A Jacks wont stand a chance agaist two usually.

At the end i was just happy that we didnt have to face Jagdpanthers from TS doc.

[MarKr]

You completely changed your original point from "90mm guns suck, they never hit anything and deal too little damage + Pershings get one-shot too often" into...well, I don't even know... several points.

How well people coordinate efforts is not something we can balance. Anyone can jump to discord and coordinate in their games. If people do it or not or to what extend they do so is not really balancable.

Only one Jacks was between us and the Panthers steamroling us.

Again, original point was that 90mm guns suck, here you say they saved the game for you.

The Pershing missed many shots. Idk how often i told consti in discord "omg, it missed again". But it was often.

What I wrote in the previous post lists every shot that Pershings took against enemy tanks. Your 90mm guns (Jacks and Pershings) took 17 shots against tanks, 4 missed (from that Pershings took 11 shots and 3 missed). The guns have (iirc) 75% accuracy at max range and these numbers show roughly 23% of shots missed. Doesn't seem be bugged or anything.

Target priorisation is another thing. Apparently bunkers are more important to be shot than panthers.

They are not, but when the Panthers revert behind bunkers and are no longer in range of the 90mm gun, then the highest priority was on the bunker because there was no other target in range.

The Jacks had been really lucky several times.

Yeah those times when Panther and KT started aiming and you managed to drive away just in time + all the missed shots against them. Might be luck, or perhaps just typical situation. Post some replays where the Jacksons get significantly less lucky through out the entire game, then we can rule out luck and butter bread theorem.

And no, i dont use AP against full HP Panther because even if i pen, the damage is too low and the Panther oneshots me in return. So its better to keep AP rounds deactivated for a max damage shot hoping to oneshot the target.

Two points:
1) Why did you upgrade the AP ammo on all your Pershings and Jacksons then? AP ammo gives you guaranteed penetration against Panthers and Tigers, it doesn't do all that much against kingtigers and bigger stuff so if you didn't intend to use it against Panthers, why waste the ammo on the upgrade at all?

2) The chance to one-shot Panther without AP active is on average 5%, the chance to one-shot Panther with AP active is on average 5%. The chance for Panther to one-shot a Pershing is on average 5%. Saying that if you don't one-shot Panther, it will one-shot you, is exaggeration.

Note also pls that we actually required the ressources gained from the entire map with all points OPed just to stand the Panthers. I think you should take this into consideration as well since we talk about cost effectivness.

Or you could have built a few of those 17 pounders you asked for several times. That, combined with VP mode would allow you to hold the points with a lot less need to hold the whole map for resources.

And in terms of cost effectivness: A Nashorn can handle three tanks at once with ease mostly. A Jacks wont stand a chance agaist two usually.

Can you send me some replay(s) where this is demonstrated plentifully? In this replay the first Nashorn died to an arty shell before it even managed to kill anything. The second Nashorn was built when you were already in their base. But the CW player used Croc Churchill and 2 Shermans to attack the Tiger and ignored the Nashorn shooting them from the side until Croc and one Sherman were dead, the other Sherman retreated. Then it got shelled from 95mm Churchill and retreated too. When the CW player returned with 2 Shermans, he knew the PE player still had the Nashorn somewhere. He split the Shermans and drove one directly into the camoed Nashorn - the Sherman obviously died to the shot from camo. The second Sherman was sent to destroy the Nashorn but it tried to maneuver between buildings or some rubble or whatever, took one shot from 75mm AT gun and then shot from Nashorn, Sherman quite rightfully destroyed. Then you sent your single Sherman to kill the Nashorn, your Sherman survived the first hit (that was quite surprise) and the Nashorn didn't survive the first hit from Sherman. So it seems you needed one tank to destroy the Nashorn. If you had 3 Shermans, and ordered them to attack the Nashorn directly (no Tiger around or anything), the Nashorn would not destroy all three of them. Even two would be quite lucky.

So the fact that the Nashorn destroyed the tanks was because it wasn't just Nashorn but "Nashorn + Tiger" and also because the CW player didn't focus the Nashorn. On the other hand when there was a situation where your opponent had a Panther and KT and you were attacking with a few Shermans and a Jackson joined in, they immediately focused the Jackson. So yes, Nashorn can handle 3 tanks if the tanks are ignoring Nashorn, but if Jackson isn't being targetted, it can take out 3 tanks too.

[Warhawks97]

You completely changed your original point from "90mm guns suck, they never hit anything and deal too little damage + Pershings get one-shot too often" into...well, I don't even know... several points.

They still suck because in their most cruical moments they tend to fail. Either by missing or bouncing or doing not enough damage. I havent seen a Nashorn getting overruned by a single tank unless its an SP. But generally it hits+pens. I cant say that about Jacks which is always a huge gamble to use. Yes, sometimes it does save you, but the cost and the ammount you luck needed is out of any relation. Basically whenever i sit with other guys in discord and hearing what is happening there they get crazy with the jacksons but its all you got. I havent really heard anyone saying "OMG that Nashorn betrayed me again". If i have a Nashorn up and see a tank approaching, i am relaxed and confident. Jacks is a whole different story.

Again, original point was that 90mm guns suck, here you say they saved the game for you.

because i was quite lucky to pull that oneshot and that the other panther backed off after that. But once i started producing 90 mm tanks i ran out of fuel real quick and i had no tank to fight inf or to tank stuff. So my army literally consisted of one unit being actually capable while mates had to cover me up.

I dont think thats the point of an TD.

But thats a general TD problem of many TD. Jagdpanzer IV´s in particluar generally suffer the same problems.

What I wrote in the previous post lists every shot that Pershings took against enemy tanks. Your 90mm guns (Jacks and Pershings) took 17 shots against tanks, 4 missed (from that Pershings took 11 shots and 3 missed). The guns have (iirc) 75% accuracy at max range and these numbers show roughly 23% of shots missed. Doesn't seem be bugged or anything.

which is a bad value given the fact that it takes long to reload. Panthers and Tigers have 90% using a gun with similiar stats and trajectory. The Nashorn even has 100% accuracy. Thats what i call a reliable hard hitting unit. TbH KT etc suffer the same accuracy issues.

They are not, but when the Panthers revert behind bunkers and are no longer in range of the 90mm gun, then the highest priority was on the bunker because there was no other target in range.

I would check it though. I am pretty sure it basically always aimed them first unless i gave them a different order because i complained about it several times during the game. AT squads also shoot at buildings rather than tanks.

Yeah those times when Panther and KT started aiming and you managed to drive away just in time + all the missed shots against them. Might be luck, or perhaps just typical situation. Post some replays where the Jacksons get significantly less lucky through out the entire game, then we can rule out luck and butter bread theorem.

As said, i think KT and so on have the same accuracy as pershings. So a Jacks is generally saver as when fighting with Panthers.

Two points:
1) Why did you upgrade the AP ammo on all your Pershings and Jacksons then? AP ammo gives you guaranteed penetration against Panthers and Tigers, it doesn't do all that much against kingtigers and bigger stuff so if you didn't intend to use it against Panthers, why waste the ammo on the upgrade at all?

2) The chance to one-shot Panther without AP active is on average 5%, the chance to one-shot Panther with AP active is on average 5%. The chance for Panther to one-shot a Pershing is on average 5%. Saying that if you don't one-shot Panther, it will one-shot you, is exaggeration.

To finish off damaged tanks. The Pershing was during the last games super susceptible to any kind of weapon. That was the first time ever that i used them and not losing the game. But only because we had no other option in this match i think. But considering what i invested into these jerks and how crazy i had to babysit them all the time, always waiting for the enemie to be alone and distracted. That sucks. A Panther often feels like a solid Hammer that knocks on the door and hit you in the face. The Pershing is rather an egg that you throw into the face of the guy after other units have opened the door. In this case: The churchills were the door openers. Without them all my Tanks would have been pretty usless. But these were the right heros. I told const when the first churchills made it through to only support them.

Its sad that a Pershing costs this much but having far less "door opener" capabilties than Panthers or Tigers.
And on top of their already high fuel build cost, they also cost twice the upkeep of a Panther. Having two of them can easily ruin your income. Ive seen games with players have just 0-3 income when they got Pershings. I was glad to have my supply yard full upgraded. How is a unit cost effective when you first have to pay like 500 fuel into upgrades in order to get it and to now run dry and on top 150 to build it. I think its arround 400 fuel for tec and upgrades to maintain their upkeep to prevent running dry. The ammount of res needed to maintain your income alone his insanely high. The CP cost are, compared to that, just one more little nuisance. Panthers are like: "Unlock them, get them, spam them."

Or you could have built a few of those 17 pounders you asked for several times. That, combined with VP mode would allow you to hold the points with a lot less need to hold the whole map for resources.

How does it help with the issue that US has no real cost effective answer to this?
You could bring the same question for axis: Why didnt they got for Jagdpanther when they knew the face two armor players?

Can you send me some replay(s) where this is demonstrated plentifully? In this replay the first Nashorn died to an arty shell before it even managed to kill anything.

just like many tanks in such games who never get a kill before dying to arty. That has nothing to do with nashorn. I lost my hellcat also without any action.

The second Nashorn was built when you were already in their base. But the CW player used Croc Churchill and 2 Shermans to attack the Tiger and ignored the Nashorn shooting them from the side until Croc and one Sherman were dead, the other Sherman retreated. Then it got shelled from 95mm Churchill and retreated too. When the CW player returned with 2 Shermans, he knew the PE player still had the Nashorn somewhere. He split the Shermans and drove one directly into the camoed Nashorn - the Sherman obviously died to the shot from camo. The second Sherman was sent to destroy the Nashorn but it tried to maneuver between buildings or some rubble or whatever, took one shot from 75mm AT gun and then shot from Nashorn, Sherman quite rightfully destroyed. Then you sent your single Sherman to kill the Nashorn, your Sherman survived the first hit (that was quite surprise) and the Nashorn didn't survive the first hit from Sherman. So it seems you needed one tank to destroy the Nashorn. If you had 3 Shermans, and ordered them to attack the Nashorn directly (no Tiger around or anything), the Nashorn would not destroy all three of them. Even two would be quite lucky.

with Jackson fails? There are even YT vids where it happens. The 3 vs 3 Rappatix uploaded recently showed Jackson fails. That tank is like a Predator that gets eaten by its victims quite often.

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=3782


I think the fact alone that holding 80% of the map and its ressources and stuggle for like 45 mins with enemie armor just shows how cost-ineffective US 90 mm Tanks are. They should help YOU surviving when getting pushed back and in the defense, not saving your victory when already controling the entire map.

So the fact that the Nashorn destroyed the tanks was because it wasn't just Nashorn but "Nashorn + Tiger" and also because the CW player didn't focus the Nashorn. On the other hand when there was a situation where your opponent had a Panther and KT and you were attacking with a few Shermans and a Jackson joined in, they immediately focused the Jackson. So yes, Nashorn can handle 3 tanks if the tanks are ignoring Nashorn, but if Jackson isn't being targetted, it can take out 3 tanks too.

With the luxury that Nashorn can stay out of range for as long as it wants and can easier back up behind units covering it. A Jacks is directly in danger when its first shot was a failure.

[Consti255]

I agree with hawks.

Walder is going to make a post about the 90mm. I think he got some great ideas what should be changed on the both tanks.

To be fair. Hawks had the armor doc jacksons and they are somewhat "okay".
Compared to the B1 they are miles above them. The B1 just sucks. It misses so often it is not worth this massive costs.

[Krieger Blitzer]

in my opinion the jackson is fine, so i agree with MarKr on this.

[Walderschmidt]

I agree with hawks.

Walder is going to make a post about the 90mm. I think he got some great ideas what should be changed on the both tanks.

To be fair. Hawks had the armor doc jacksons and they are somewhat "okay".
Compared to the B1 they are miles above them. The B1 just sucks. It misses so often it is not worth this massive costs.

Here it is.

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=4210

Wald