95 mm artillery Churchil

[MEFISTO]

This unit must be limited to 1.
Why? Heavy armor, and rapid indirect fire ( very accurate) plus can be used as artillery.
It is like having 2 Stupas, with heavy accuracy and artillery.

[MEFISTO]

My Panthers, LOL. expensive garbage.

[Krieger Blitzer]

I'd argue 95mm Churchill should be more expensive, currently it's very cheap.

[Redgaarden]

I agree it over performing. I dont know how to counter them except for heavy TD or heavy tanks. Due to emplacements, TD and infantry doesn't work most of the time.

[MEFISTO]

I agree it over performing. I dont know how to counter them except for heavy TD or heavy tanks. Due to emplacements, TD and infantry doesn't work most of the time.

I use everything I had, Panthers, elite infantry with bazucas, I barely had chance with those guys since this 95mm snipe them and everything bounced. Even panthers with AP barely penetrate 1 or two ace everything else bounced.

[Warhawks97]

Generally speaking when i compare BK mod to pretty much other ww2 strat game that has such howitzer tanks, i noticed that the fired shots have a very high speed and reaching targets nearly instantly. Stupa is a very powerfull example for "teleporting" shells.

In vcoh, as well as eruope at war mod and even games like gates of hell or men of war, howitzer tanks have a pretty slow flying shell, half the speed or less of a normal tank gun. Thus, after the shot is fired, there is a chance of units to move and dodge the rounds.

I wonder why BK is the only game that has howitzer tanks being working so "wrong" with fast flying projectiles and no trajectory.

The only changes we make here are accuracy stat chances to reduce hit probability (like we did in the past with scott etc).


Personally i would be glad to have howitzer tanks having different modes of operations. Direct fire and indirect fire modes over short distances. However, even direct firing shells would fly quite slowly and with a high trajectory so that targeted units would have time to move away and make the shots fail. So, when fighting these units you can effectively screw off their accuracy after the shot has been fired already.

[Krieger Blitzer]

Generally speaking when i compare BK mod to pretty much other ww2 strat game that has such howitzer tanks, i noticed that the fired shots have a very high speed and reaching targets nearly instantly. Stupa is a very powerfull example for "teleporting" shells.

In vcoh, as well as eruope at war mod and even games like gates of hell or men of war, howitzer tanks have a pretty slow flying shell, half the speed or less of a normal tank gun. Thus, after the shot is fired, there is a chance of units to move and dodge the rounds.

I wonder why BK is the only game that has howitzer tanks being working so "wrong" with fast flying projectiles and no trajectory.

The only changes we make here are accuracy stat chances to reduce hit probability (like we did in the past with scott etc).


Personally i would be glad to have howitzer tanks having different modes of operations. Direct fire and indirect fire modes over short distances. However, even direct firing shells would fly quite slowly and with a high trajectory so that targeted units would have time to move away and make the shots fail. So, when fighting these units you can effectively screw off their accuracy after the shot has been fired already.

Agreed with this.
They should work more like PIATS, or the AVRE, and the projectile tracers should be visible for their shells.

Referring to Stupa, StuH, Scott, 95 Churchill, & 105 Sherman.

[MEFISTO]

Generally speaking when i compare BK mod to pretty much other ww2 strat game that has such howitzer tanks, i noticed that the fired shots have a very high speed and reaching targets nearly instantly. Stupa is a very powerfull example for "teleporting" shells.

In vcoh, as well as eruope at war mod and even games like gates of hell or men of war, howitzer tanks have a pretty slow flying shell, half the speed or less of a normal tank gun. Thus, after the shot is fired, there is a chance of units to move and dodge the rounds.

I wonder why BK is the only game that has howitzer tanks being working so "wrong" with fast flying projectiles and no trajectory.

The only changes we make here are accuracy stat chances to reduce hit probability (like we did in the past with scott etc).


Personally i would be glad to have howitzer tanks having different modes of operations. Direct fire and indirect fire modes over short distances. However, even direct firing shells would fly quite slowly and with a high trajectory so that targeted units would have time to move away and make the shots fail. So, when fighting these units you can effectively screw off their accuracy after the shot has been fired already.

Agreed with this.
They should work more like PIATS, or the AVRE, and the projectile tracers should be visible for their shells.

Referring to Stupa, StuH, Scott, 95 Churchill, & 105 Sherman.

StuH and stupa are nothing compare to this Churchill only Stupa can match its armor, but regarding indirect fire reload time price and accuracy bro this Churchill is nuts , plus can be also used as artillery not only vs emplacements but also vs any other unit or ground on the map, this unit is nuts.

[Red]

I never considered the 95mm Churchill to be so heavily armored, and I play CW RE most often when playing Allied troups. But maybe I just got lucky...
Overall I consider CW RE quite strong, so I would be fine with nerfing the 95mm Churchill a bit (preferably in terms of armor or cooldown), although I find that it hits signicantly less hard than other dedicte artillery.
Not sure about the other units mentioned, though.

[Krieger Blitzer]

95mm Churchill armor is fine, just the price is too low.

And maybe all of these "howitzer" tanks could have a tweaked projectile, as Hawks suggested.

[Consti255]

95mm Churchill armor is fine, just the price is too low.

And maybe all of these "howitzer" tanks could have a tweaked projectile, as Hawks suggested.

The price is not too low.
Its a high CP costing unit. With high MP costs aswell.
RE is limited by MP and not fuel, due to the sector lockdown CP unlock your numbers go to the roof and IMO beyond broken income.
Mencius had just from one high fuel plus 36 or 40 fuel or some shit.
Price is fine.

I agree here with Hawks. The projectiles should be tweaked. An maybe the ammo and fuel upkeep.
So you stop chilling with 2-3 units of this type with 24/7 600 ammo in the bank.
But i explained it in another thread already, RE relys HEAVY on this unit when it comes to indirect fire. So a nerf to that, would be a super hit for RE.
If the 95mm gets nerfed too hard, you have just tulips (which got nerfed also) and they are everything but not reliabel.

[MarKr]

I really doubt that changing projectile speed will change anything. When these tanks shoot at something, they target a specific entity (one soldier, vehicle or tank). The game does its usual accuracy calculation and if it rolls a hit, the shot acts like a "guided" projectile that will hit even if the target moves.
There was a post saying that a projectile that rolled a hit can be dodged if the unit moves fast enough, but that was for projectiles from hand-held AT weapons that are muc slower than projectiles from howitzers. No tanks or infantry move fast enough to dodge a howitzer projectile even if we cut the projectile speed in half. In the end it would be just a visual change with no practical impact on gameplay (at least I think there would be none).
I admit that my knowledge of projectile behavior is limited, so there is a chance that it might change something but in that case we'll have people complaining about artillery shots that visibly "chase" their targets.

[Krieger Blitzer]

iirc, projectile speed & target speed both play a significant role in overall accuracy, & i think this is something hardcoded in the Essence Engine of CoH.

For instance, take a look at PIATs (which is a handheld AT weapon but still) clearly proves that u can not only avoid it, but u can also drive accross a missed shot & get hit.

Let's not get too far, the best example would be the StuH in vanilla CoH.. it shoots like a PIAT, if u stay.. u take damage, if u go away.. u escape.

Slower Projectiles (with visible tracers) for these tanks would help a lot & they would also make more sense.

The ability to target emplacements can be untouched.. no need to apply slower projectiles on that one, i guess.

[Warhawks97]

I really doubt that changing projectile speed will change anything. When these tanks shoot at something, they target a specific entity (one soldier, vehicle or tank). The game does its usual accuracy calculation and if it rolls a hit, the shot acts like a "guided" projectile that will hit even if the target moves.
There was a post saying that a projectile that rolled a hit can be dodged if the unit moves fast enough, but that was for projectiles from hand-held AT weapons that are muc slower than projectiles from howitzers. No tanks or infantry move fast enough to dodge a howitzer projectile even if we cut the projectile speed in half. In the end it would be just a visual change with no practical impact on gameplay (at least I think there would be none).
I admit that my knowledge of projectile behavior is limited, so there is a chance that it might change something but in that case we'll have people complaining about artillery shots that visibly "chase" their targets.

I might be also wrong here, but i got the feeling that in europe at war mod the scott does have a quite indirect, slow flying projectile (and i think every howitzer tank as well) that can be dodged. The shell is less than half the speed of a tank shot. Maybe just a fourth of it. However, its the trajectory that makes the shell flying more than twice as long as a gun shot in the end.

Idk if speed and trajectory are somehow linked to each other. I think any weapon can be made behaving like PIATs.



Another, perhaps less related issue, is the AoE setting in BK. AoE weapons in general seem to have either very large AoE´s or being often times super deadly even at their furthest reaching point or both, resulting usually always in a full "mission" or "combat" kill of a unit. So even if the targeted squad unit survived, it has to retreat and thus being effectively a "combat" kill as it takes a unit out of the fight.

[MarKr]

For instance, take a look at PIATs (which is a handheld AT weapon but still) clearly proves that u can not only avoid it, but u can also drive accross a missed shot & get hit.

Aaaand of course you took the only example I can think of that uses a different settings for projectiles

Yes, PIATs are not "homing" and that is also the reason why they are so notoriously unreliable and inaccurate. We could set the howitzers in a same way but then the direct shooting will have trouble hitting anything. If you ask people what is the worst hand-held AT in the game, everyone will say PIATs (except for Sukin, he'll bitch about Recoilless rifles forever ). So with this change you'll put the howitzer tanks into the same position. That on its own is counter-productive because as far as I can remember people begged for the tanks to have the direct-shooting option so that they could be used for something else than literally just destroying static emplacements. If we change the projectile settings, they will technically be able to shoot at other stuff too, but with pretty much 0 effectivity and so people will complain again that the tanks are only good for destroying emplacements and nothing else.

You either keep the current projectile settings and then "hit is a hit", or you change the settings to what PIATs have and then they will be utterly inaccurate - in that case why have the direct-shooting at all?

[MEFISTO]

iirc, projectile speed & target speed both play a significant role in overall accuracy, & i think this is something hardcoded in the Essence Engine of CoH.

For instance, take a look at PIATs (which is a handheld AT weapon but still) clearly proves that u can not only avoid it, but u can also drive accross a missed shot & get hit.

Let's not get too far, the best example would be the StuH in vanilla CoH.. it shoots like a PIAT, if u stay.. u take damage, if u go away.. u escape.

Slower Projectiles (with visible tracers) for these tanks would help a lot & they would also make more sense.

The ability to target emplacements can be untouched.. no need to apply slower projectiles on that one, i guess.

Bro I didn’t like the idea to see a projectile coming like in vanilla, that looks horrible, accuracy can be changed, that is what we did in the past with Stupa and Stuh and it works, I would also nerf the indirect fire reload time from this Churchill 95 vs infantry, it is insane accurate and it’s rare of fire is crazy, it basically snipe infantry.

[Redgaarden]

Dont piats have much higher dps and still high crit chance compared to RR? They both suck against light vehicles.

As it stands now 95mm is your go to anti tank, anti infantry, Anti building. There isn't much blitz can do except Panthers. Pretty sure stroms with shrecks and pz4 can't handle 95mm.

I haven't done much(Any) testing. So I dont know how players usually deal with 95mm but I use them for literally everything. I think we should give them the same treatment stupa and stuh got.

EDIT: I think Stuh from vcoh also use same projectiles as piats.

EDIT2: I believe it would be weird that 95mm is the only tank with a projectile.

[MarKr]

Just to clarify: I'm not against some nerfs to the churchill. I'm just saying that fiddling with the projectile settings either won't change much or will make the direct-shooting totally useless.

The direct fire has 40% accuracy at max range and it already has 40% accuracy nerf against infantry that is moving (so cca 24% chance to hit a moving infantry squad). If it still hits too often, then it most likely means that the scatter is set too low and so even if the game rolls a miss, the shot lands so close that some soldiers get caught in the AoE and so it still hits/kills. If that is the case, we should increase the scatter - that way missed shots will have a bigger area to land in and so there will be a higher chance that missed shots truly miss with their whole AoE.

The damage vs tanks is dropped by 75% (85% vs heavies), so it deals 65 damage to medium tanks that generally have around 600HP and 39 damage to heavies that usually have around 1000HP. That shouldn't be too problematic. I will check the criticals, it is quite likely that it has the same crits as arty weapons, so it crits tracks and engines a lot.

[Warhawks97]

For instance, take a look at PIATs (which is a handheld AT weapon but still) clearly proves that u can not only avoid it, but u can also drive accross a missed shot & get hit.

Aaaand of course you took the only example I can think of that uses a different settings for projectiles

Yes, PIATs are not "homing" and that is also the reason why they are so notoriously unreliable and inaccurate. We could set the howitzers in a same way but then the direct shooting will have trouble hitting anything. If you ask people what is the worst hand-held AT in the game, everyone will say PIATs (except for Sukin, he'll bitch about Recoilless rifles forever ). So with this change you'll put the howitzer tanks into the same position. That on its own is counter-productive because as far as I can remember people begged for the tanks to have the direct-shooting option so that they could be used for something else than literally just destroying static emplacements. If we change the projectile settings, they will technically be able to shoot at other stuff too, but with pretty much 0 effectivity and so people will complain again that the tanks are only good for destroying emplacements and nothing else.

You either keep the current projectile settings and then "hit is a hit", or you change the settings to what PIATs have and then they will be utterly inaccurate - in that case why have the direct-shooting at all?

PIATS have issues hitting mobile targets but hit sitting targets quite nicely actually. The Howitzer tanks got the treatment and have no pretty bad accuracy vs moving targets but not vs standing targets. So in the end it doesnt matter of they only roll misses vs moving targets or simply have a PIAT like trajectory that makes hitting moving targets hard to achieve.

So their intended role would not change except that shots can be dodged after the shot was done. The shorter the firing range, the less time the shells spends in the air, the less time to move away.


I think having howitzer tanks shooting in a higher trajectory would be beneficial in some ways. You can lob shells over some smaller bushes, depending how large they are and where they are placed, the shell would land in the targets area and the balance between hitting non-moving and moving targets would be better and more dependent on distance rather than "hit always or never ever" kind of style. Even if the the 95 mm in a way stupa and others have been, it would still mean that the only effective chance not to get hit and whiped is to keep constantly moving because you never know when the tank will shoot. If it shoots in the second you dont move you are fucked.
We could also set them in a way that they have less accuracy penalties vs cover, trenches etc and also a higher chance to kill weapon crews within emplacments as the shots will hit from above.


I think having howitzer tanks fire like PIATS (which does not necessarily mean we see the shots fly) with slower speed, higher trajectory and a chance to dodge them would be quite a cool feature as it would make these units quite special, unique with their own pros and cons instead of being simply " different sort of HE tank" with usually "bigger HE that cant hit moving targets".
on Top of that these units would also have a short HE barrage of 2-4 shots available acting as quick reacting frontline indirect fire artillery units to quickly overcome some lighter pockets of resistance.

So i think the 95 mm churchill is already going in the right direction with its dual use feature. It just needs more PIAT style shooting/trajectory but with a somewhat higher speed than PIATs (otherwise the shell will literally stuck in the air when shooting over the full 60 range they have)


Edit: Above all else these units rely on the ammount of HE they carry. So even if the shots fly and land like PIAT´s, their HE would still cause damage in the area. The advantage, however, would be that these shots will not always land right in the middle of the targeted troops or so close that they still get whiped more often than not.

[Redgaarden]

The damage vs tanks is dropped by 75% (85% vs heavies), so it deals 65 damage to medium tanks that generally have around 600HP and 39 damage to heavies that usually have around 1000HP. That shouldn't be too problematic. I will check the criticals, it is quite likely that it has the same crits as arty weapons, so it crits tracks and engines a lot.

It feels like it does twice the amount of dmg you write down here. Like 5-6 hit kill for medium tank and 8 hit kill or something for heavies. Was it just changed to this this path or was it like that last patch?

[MarKr]

It feels like it does twice the amount of dmg you write down here. Like 5-6 hit kill for medium tank and 8 hit kill or something for heavies. Was it just changed to this this path or was it like that last patch?

I think last time we touched this was one patch after the churchill got direct fire. In one patch it got direct fire, and because I forgot to adjust some values, it was OP as heck so the update after that it got the values it has now. That was several months ago, I think.

[MEFISTO]

It feels like it does twice the amount of dmg you write down here. Like 5-6 hit kill for medium tank and 8 hit kill or something for heavies. Was it just changed to this this path or was it like that last patch?

I think last time we touched this was one patch after the churchill got direct fire. In one patch it got direct fire, and because I forgot to adjust some values, it was OP as heck so the update after that it got the values it has now. That was several months ago, I think.

Why not to give this unit a similar ROF and accuracy as Stuh? I think Stuh is in the right spot, we’re is not that deadly to infantry using direct fire and good vs emplacements.
Also this Churchill has strong armor, can easy survive an AT squad better than Stuh does. I don’t know if you watched the replay but even my panthers Ace and infantry couldn’t do anything to stop that 95mm Churchill.

[MarKr]

Why not to give this unit a similar ROF and accuracy as Stuh? I think Stuh is in the right spot, we’re is not that deadly to infantry using direct fire and good vs emplacements.

95mm Churchill reloads in 15 seconds, StuH 25 seconds. So that is one difference. We made it this way because the 95mm shot is weaker than 105mm but if it overperforms, we can increase it to 25 or something. They already have the same accuracy, however, StuH has bigger scatter - just as I said:

If it still hits too often, then it most likely means that the scatter is set too low and so even if the game rolls a miss, the shot lands so close that some soldiers get caught in the AoE and so it still hits/kills. If that is the case, we should increase the scatter - that way missed shots will have a bigger area to land in and so there will be a higher chance that missed shots truly miss with their whole AoE.

[Krieger Blitzer]

Personally, my aim wouldn't be to nerf the 95 Churchill in particular, but to add tracers & adjust the projectile speed for 95 Churchill, Stupa, StuH & 105 Sherman (perhaps excluding the Scott) they will not be useless.. the direct fire will be still useful against towed AT guns, trenches & immobilized tanks, we can increase the crits eventually as well.

The ability that targets emplacements at long range can remain untouched.

[MEFISTO]

Personally, my aim wouldn't be to nerf the 95 Churchill in particular, but to add tracers & adjust the projectile speed for 95 Churchill, Stupa, StuH & 105 Sherman (perhaps excluding the Scott) they will not be useless.. the direct fire will be still useful against towed AT guns, trenches & immobilized tanks, we can increase the crits eventually as well.

The ability that targets emplacements at long range can remain untouched.

I am against any buff to any of this units, they can melt or delete infantry, actually 95mm Churchill do it extremely good and yes it needs a nerf ( heavy armor, almost everything bounced on it) snipe infantry, low reloading time to be a 95mm, and can counter almost everything. Check the replay, my Panthers were struggling to penetrate any of this Churchill in general, MKVII etc… and got melt by this unit. I actually have another game were my Tiger late version wasn’t able to penetrate this MKVII at all and some how this unit penetrate the Tiger 2 times lol, and of course, an Achilles came from nowhere and 1 shoot the damage Tiger.