Suggestion: TDs Come With AP Already Equipped

[Walderschmidt]

I thought this would be a good small change to help differentiate tank destroyers form normal tanks (most of whom, imo, are a waste when using their AP ammo). What do you think?

Wald

[CGarr]

It's stupid that it isn't the default ammo IMO, considering you are expected to use it in like 95% of td vs tank engagements, even against tanks of similar class.

I understand paying extra for HEAT, but paying extra for APCR is just unnecessary extra micro, it doesn't add anything to the game if you're meant to use it all the time.

[Warhawks97]

Like i talked about this stuff in two or three topics already.

This is one of them: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=4775

Generally it does make sense, yes. And in the same way it would make sense to have normal multirole tanks being equiped with HE rounds.



I think it would make it this way:
TD´s would have APCR/HVAP/APDS by default and HE rounds (and HEAT in some cases) for a decent price. Alternatively there could be a global upgrade or certain tec stage that would deliver these rounds.

Multirole tanks would have only standard AP and HE available. APCR/HVAP/APDS would only be avaialble for a high price or only via Doctrinal unlock.


I am however not sure what Comet/Firefly/Panthers main role is supposed to be. Anti inf or Anti armor fight? Should they have any round by default at all given their firepower with basic rounds?



But to your main question: Yes, i support your point.

[Consti255]

Like i talked about this stuff in two or three topics already.

This is one of them: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=4775

Generally it does make sense, yes. And in the same way it would make sense to have normal multirole tanks being equiped with HE rounds.



I think it would make it this way:
TD´s would have APCR/HVAP/APDS by default and HE rounds (and HEAT in some cases) for a decent price. Alternatively there could be a global upgrade or certain tec stage that would deliver these rounds.

Multirole tanks would have only standard AP and HE available. APCR/HVAP/APDS would only be avaialble for a high price or only via Doctrinal unlock.


I am however not sure what Comet/Firefly/Panthers main role is supposed to be. Anti inf or Anti armor fight? Should they have any round by default at all given their firepower with basic rounds?



But to your main question: Yes, i support your point.

agreed.

[CGarr]

Like i talked about this stuff in two or three topics already.

This is one of them: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=4775

Generally it does make sense, yes. And in the same way it would make sense to have normal multirole tanks being equiped with HE rounds....

I think we're on the same page, I was just too lazy too look for our old ammo threads, so threw out a simplified solution. 100% on board with your proposition

[idliketoplaybetter]

So more ammo will be available eventually in result of such changes?

[Walderschmidt]

So more ammo will be available eventually in result of such changes?

Yes, as a result of not having to pay 50 muni to equip TDs with standard AP, more muni will be available.

Wald

[MarKr]

This is literally asking for straight buff for certain units. It will also allow for saving up more ammo, which will benefit some docs more than others. What is the counter balance suggestion here?

[Warhawks97]

This is literally asking for straight buff for certain units. It will also allow for saving up more ammo, which will benefit some docs more than others. What is the counter balance suggestion here?

Tanks get HE by default, TD´s AP.

Counter balance: Start adding actual fuel cost to tanks.
If you want you can also make AP rounds for TD a global upgrade

[idliketoplaybetter]

Was exactly my thoughts, what is this ammo will be used for?

To me, it was balanced by game core design itself. Units that are called off map are all (or majorly?) equiped already, due to CP and MP price payed for it, which is normally higher a bit and locked behind specific ingame results (CP income) therefore timings (Unlock tree).

What is build within the map, factory wise, cost different by default and used within gameplay differently.

For the specific docs, munition factor is balancing by itself - you cant call armor from Inf, so u build it - spend muni - that by itself not spent on Arty or so. Same for Def doc. U have to choose to equip Tank hunter or maybe spend it for arty.

I may sense that Luft would want more muni, but what will be the result for example? more planes for just more planes?

If we apply Fuel trade off, then core gameplay Teching mechanics has to be rearranged too. What is T3 timing for just upgrade be? Since less fuel come for player in result for eq

Dunno.

[MarKr]

I have a feeling I'm getting oracle powers lol

To me, it was balanced by game core design itself. Units that are called off map are all (or majorly?) equiped already, due to CP and MP price payed for it, which is normally higher a bit and locked behind specific ingame results (CP income) therefore timings (Unlock tree).

There are still units that are built with upgrades pre-installed. E.g. PIV H and some Panthers come with skirts pre-installed, axis tanks that have top MG have it by default and there would be more examples if I thought about it more.

Also, it's not like every unit that can have AP will get it by default, it leaves out tanks so it only benefits certain units and not every doctrine has same amount of TDs and not every doctrine relies on them the same way. So I wouldn't say that e.g. AB doc uses so many M10s that the free upgrade could make a significant ammo gain for them. But still, it is a buff for certain units and it will make fighting tanks more effective. Counter balance could be e.g. increase in cost of the AP ability activation. Or the thing that was brought up some time ago - handheld AT could be more effective (or downright hard counter) to TDs. Therefore, infantry with AT would be effective at countering TDs, TDs would be effective at countering tanks and tanks would be effective at countering infantry, so that each of those unit types counters something but is also countered by something.

Just example ideas, no need to get worked up about them if you have another one.

[Krieger Blitzer]

I do not support this proposal, also.. handheld AT weapons are already effective vs TDs so the old topic to make them even more effective generally, is irrelevant & something i also never supported.

Furthermore; against any concecutive change(s) that may have to follow.. which is the main reason i am against the change.. not to mention that tanks were made to be inaccurate using AP rounds vs inf for a reason.. so giving tanks HE by default only makes inf game-play worse again.

[Walderschmidt]

Just so we’re clear.

I was only advocating TDs get AP rounds equipped by default.

That is the only change I am proposing in this thread, whether people agree with it or not. While I appreciate Warhawks’ chiming in and support, if I wanted to advocated that regular medium tanks come with HE equipped, I would have made a thread about it.

Wald

[idliketoplaybetter]

My point was to bring attention to what it will cause to the specific doctrines.

Def doc will have more munitions for arty - there is no other reliable at, aside of Jagds.
Inf doc will have more munitions for arty - here its easier to survive without TH, but ehh..
BK doc is going to be even stronger (I dunno for good or not), Stugs are very common now
Achilles? basically, no matter what counter balance messure you apply, you get free first AP shot on all the TD's.

What is the problem currenty that this is required in a first place? Differentiate units? They are, by stats, price and abilities (camo for instance).

I think there was even a talk some time ago to make "tanks being able to camo". So..tendency for differentiation is quite wage.


And apparently less tanks in use eventually by majority of players (cause why would u need it), TD's are cheaper and u can have more MG's crews to defend and camo.

Basically people ask for faster games (faster resourse banking), but propose things that will only cause longer matches. I can already see how rounds are filled with 1shot HE squishers (to supress AT inf) and TD's dealing with any kind of vehicle from the camo..back and forth 1clicking.
Ironically it will lead to what hawking been saying, rush for mid tier units.

I dont know guys..

[MarKr]

We like the idea in general but we're not sure about the impact. It might have bigger impact on some docs than others, the impact might still be low or also rather high. We will give it a try in the upcoming beta without any counter balance and we'll see what players report. Then we can either tweak it by adding a counter balance change specific to reported problems or revert it completely if we see it made medium tanks almost useless or something.

[Warhawks97]

What is actually a TD?

Is a Comet a TD or multirole? Its main role is clearly anti tank
Stugs? I wouldnt count stugs as primary TD unit but more a cheap mutlirole assault tank.

what about global upgrades costing MP, Ammo and Fuel but then all TD are equiped with AP?

[Red]

What is actually a TD?

For me, when I cast my vote, I thought of TD as any vehicle hat has a big gun (from 3,7cm upwards) and does not have HE rounds.
So for me vehicles like StuGs, Comet, Archilles, ... are not something I would see covered here. In other words, I advocate the "free" AP upgrade only for those vehicles that do not have HE rounds. (Those that have (can buy) HE rounds should still be able to buy AP, though, for Ammo.)

[Krieger Blitzer]

Stug3 certainly isn't TD, whereas Stug4 can be considered a TD but also has access to HE rounds same as Achilles, Hellcat & Marder3; which is absolutely fine. HE rounds make these tanks kind of special...
Comet is definitely multirole.

Overall, i don't think TDs need to be equipped with AP rounds by default to begin with, so idk.

[idliketoplaybetter]

"the StuG III was continually modified, and much like the later Jagdpanzer vehicles, was employed as a tank destroyer"
Comet is a tank, no? huh?

Wikipedia.

You are just trying to find work around this idea guys. That is why I literally asked - what is the problem and what means to "differentiate" TD from Tanks in a first place?

Some units do and some units dont, its just a way to excuse reasoning.

[tarakancheg]

That is why I literally asked - what is the problem and what means to "differentiate" TD from Tanks in a first place?

Gameplay vise? Definetely being able to camo for more range, not like inf doc Jackson which is basically a tank without anti-infantry capabilities (running inf over does not count here).

[idliketoplaybetter]

So they are different already by it's meaning and potential usage.

What next?

[MarKr]

It will apply to motorized units that can camouflage and are primarily intended to destroy enemy tanks.

T48 halftrack, M10, M18, M36, Achilles, "Puma" 234/4, Marder III, Geschützwagen, StuG IV, Hetzer, JPIV L48, JPIV L70, Nashorns, Elefants, Jagdpanthers