Vision of spotter units and vehicles.

[Stug Life]

Spotter units that don't have a large vision field around them, precisely when using binoculars. (with kettle u see half of small/medium map) (with spotter, u can crawl behind enemy lines and see most of the movements)

I would propose to make spotter units use "observe the area" special ability instead of binoculars, but increase field diameter (a lot) and duration for "observe the area" ability. Maybe that way 2 or 3 spotters wont see most of the map all the time, making more elements of surprise instead of spotter anti spotter warfare, that then degrades into arty spam.

Would require more micro I imagine as there wouldn't be a constant huge vision field.
Would actually make more use of fog of war, since as things are now, often you see unit composition and their placements with forward spotters and little fog of war.
Also units like motorcycle, cars and scout cars might need adjusting, but maybe not, if they cant camoflage.

I'm quite used to it as it is, but many games (mostly 2v2) always turn into anti spotter missions, just like the spotter post in 2015 that fast degraded into anti arty debate viewtopic.php?f=15&t=454

This way even crawling behind enemy lines, you wouldn't be able to see most of enemy movements, even if you're using the ability.
Id just like more fog of war.

What do you think, do you even care?

[Krieger Blitzer]

More fog of war sounds good to me.. but i don't think jeeps\bikes or detection units would need any adjustments at all.. because spotters\Kettens\Dingo would be still able to crawl\hide in cover while providing basic vision range in their surroundings. So, the idea of bigger "observe area" ability instead of binos actually sounds good to me. However, what might need a change is the RA spotter.. perhaps a crawl ability would be sufficient.

[Warhawks97]

I was thinking about spotters and recons as well. Generally i would say that it would be nice to have a 2-3 men recon squad that moves together with your forces or can be stationed at the flanks. These guys would not crawl arround like ninjas and hide somewhere near the enemie base completely unarmed. Instead they would be a perhaps a 3 men squad and simply called recon squad. They would usually carry either normal Rifles or Carabines and perhaps able to upgrade some better weapons.
As they go into cover they would soon automatically hide and pull out a binocular, however with less vision range than they have now.

Additonally other recon type units would have options to either upgrade certain observation tools.
Officers would automatically have some sort of observing mode.
Likewise recon vehicles such as Pumas, Chaffe light tanks etc would have abilities and upgrades to enhance their reconassaince capabilities.

So, recon units in general would not just be single Ninja like men that can crawl undetected over open plain fields. Instead they would be a support element that would move with your forces.

If you would want to have better view of what happens behind enemie lines you either have to pick docs that can drop pathfinder like squads behind enemie lines that have a larger vision range than normal units, or call in recon planes.
Also recon units would be equiped with improved radios instead of better self defense weapons that would allow them to call in stuff, based on doctrine, such as Artillery flares at a certain location, recon flights, small artillery strikes or smoke drops etc etc etc.

So in summary:
1. 2-3 Men recon squads that dont crawl but go into camo mode automatically and automatically go into observation mode that gives them more vision range than other units.
2. Can either get improved self defense equipment to their otherwise very basic equipment or improved radio kits to call in all sorts of stuff: Flares, Recon flights, arty strikes, smoke drops and so on.
3. Can get improved observation equipment to further improve vision range.
4. Not only Recon squads would be recon units, but also vehicles like Pumas, M20, Greyhounds, M5 Recce, chaffe light tank and so on.
5. Jeeps, bikes and schwimmwagens would start without weapons and cost just 180 MP. They can then get upgraded to fullfill different tasks, ranging from weapons based on doctrine to observation gear and idk what else. So they are at first utility vehicles rather than just combat vehicles with higher spotting and detection range.
6. If you want to see whats going on deeper in enemie territory, use special forces doctrines like commandos etc which would have special elite pathfinder like squads that are 3 or 4 men strong and recon airplanes.


Recon units become then an essential part of your combat forces and act as support units rather than unarmed Ninja guys that crawl accross streets unseen just to hide near enemie bases and observe the half map.

[Consti255]

Keep in mind, that lower vision espically against defensive players will mean, WAY more ambushes by TDs and paks against your forces, which will drag games out pretty significantly.
Paired with the current costs of mediums and medium tds, this can go out of hands pretty easy and end up in a stalement game.

[Stug Life]

4. Not only Recon squads would be recon units, but also vehicles like Pumas, M20, Greyhounds, M5 Recce, chaffe light tank and so on.
5. Jeeps, bikes and schwimmwagens would start without weapons and cost just 180 MP. They can then get upgraded to fullfill different tasks, ranging from weapons based on doctrine to observation gear and idk what else. So they are at first utility vehicles rather than just combat vehicles with higher spotting and detection range.

I feel like our ideas vary a bit, but I like these 2 points as they would tie in with the original idea in the post I expressed, as I don't entirely agree on 2-3 men observation squads, but that's only if they are meant as the main spotter unit and cant crawl. I like the idea if its as a support unit that can call in bombardment or other support.

Scout car and command scout car (for us armor doc), has mark target ability and active vision field, instead have lesser vision field around them and have "observe the area" ability instead of mark target, so instead of marking a tank when it retreats in fog of war, use ability to observe a specific part of map the tank is retreating in.

Imo, only tanks with tank commanders should be the ones with "observe the area" ability, so its not oversaturated with spotter unit abilities. Especially if its to tie in with the 5th point u mention and scout cars besides the other spotter infantry.


On a side note... I'm curious thou which people actually decide and implement changes to the mod? And what motivates them. Maybe there is a post about that, which I obviously didn't search for.

[Redgaarden]

I feel like this would confuse a lot of people. My head hurts from trying to understand what you guys are typing. And I can imagine how all the people who dont frequent the forums would react to this change.
I understand you want to lessen the effect of spotter war or something?

I can't see how the spotter would act different'y with your changes. Do you want tanky spotter squads like warhawks? What are spotting ranges currently? 80 radius?

only tanks with tank commanders should be the ones with "observe the area" ability, so its not oversaturated with spotter unit abilities. Especially if its to tie in with the 5th point u mention and scout cars besides the other spotter infantry.

This would be very powerful and nice to counter rocket spam. But I dont know if it would glitch the game.

[Stug Life]

I feel like this would confuse a lot of people. My head hurts from trying to understand what you guys are typing. And I can imagine how all the people who dont frequent the forums would react to this change.
I understand you want to lessen the effect of spotter war or something?

I can't see how the spotter would act different'y with your changes. Do you want tanky spotter squads like warhawks? What are spotting ranges currently? 80 radius?

only tanks with tank commanders should be the ones with "observe the area" ability, so its not oversaturated with spotter unit abilities. Especially if its to tie in with the 5th point u mention and scout cars besides the other spotter infantry.

This would be very powerful and nice to counter rocket spam. But I dont know if it would glitch the game.

My main point is, instead of huge active spotter field around the unit "binoculars", make this field smaller or get rid of it. The other spotter ability "observe the area" make this ability field bigger and a bit longer lasting. I just elaborated the Same with scout cars, that can just hide behind buildings or bushes and see a lot, because of their active spotting distance.

[Stug Life]

I understand you want to lessen the effect of spotter war or something?

let me show my very professional drawing of what i mean

In picture 1, vision with binoculars and whit out, marked by the red line (binoculars) and green line (no binoculars).
In picture 2, vision of "observe the area" ability, when not using binoculars.

So to understand what I'm saying, I want to get rid of binoculars, and increase "observe the area" field and duration. from the yellow to orange field or even bigger.

so what do you think about that? do you like the idea or not

[Consti255]

In general i like the idea, but what bothers me is, that it would require SO much more micro.
And micro is a big balance factor aswell, in my opinion.
This change will make the player skill balance even worse.

[Warhawks97]

What i tried to propse is that recon units will vary in type (inf, vehicles, planes) and become an essential part of a battlegroup rather than indivdual soldiers that are send out without weapons on a sneaky mission anywhere only equiped with huge binos.

So whenever you will launch an offensive, you bring up recon vehicles, planes or the 3 men recon squads (no crawl, but armed with light self defense weapons) that are integrated into your, lets say, battlegroup or slightly ahead. They can also be equiped with additional reconassaince tools to increase vision a bit further life once they stop moving (so less micro) or to observe a certain location for a while or additional radio/command equipment to activate perhaps various support abilities, depending on doctrine, ranging from artillery strikes, airplanes and smoke to command vehicle for nearby tanks. Like you build an M20 and upgrade it with additional scouting tools or command tools.

So basically you will have a recon element integrated into your combat force rather than having only individual spotters accross the field.

[Redgaarden]

Thanks for the clarification.

I neither like nor dislike the change. It would change the unit from a useful unit to another useful unit. nerf inactive use and buff active use.

This is in short a nerf to camo units and a buff to rocket arty and maybe tanks.

This change will make the player skill balance even worse.

camo units without bino are also good at spotting. It is certainly "abuseable" but people should get to use that ability a lot anyways even without that change. And if you wanted to assault a position it's the hidden units you should be worried about and this change would actually lessen the micro required to map out an area for hidden troops due to increased spotting range of the ability.

It would be interesting to try it out. Can't say I'm against trying a match or two with binos changed.

[idliketoplaybetter]

In overall I like this concept.

Although, for the most part I'd just go with general light vehicles like jeeps and bikes upgradable or by default obtaining observe the area ability or stationary vision providing.

The idea of having any number of invisible scouts with a cool down ability to decamo anything on the map is not stimulatng proper micro at all.
U just click and wait. At least, I'd rework or make basic scout units that we have now in either doctrinal or tiering dependable.

[Stug Life]

What i tried to propse is that recon units will vary in type (inf, vehicles, planes) and become an essential part of a battlegroup rather than indivdual soldiers that are send out without weapons on a sneaky mission anywhere only equiped with huge binos.

So whenever you will launch an offensive, you bring up recon vehicles, planes or the 3 men recon squads (no crawl, but armed with light self defense weapons) that are integrated into your, lets say, battlegroup or slightly ahead. They can also be equiped with additional reconassaince tools to increase vision a bit further life once they stop moving (so less micro) or to observe a certain location for a while or additional radio/command equipment to activate perhaps various support abilities, depending on doctrine, ranging from artillery strikes, airplanes and smoke to command vehicle for nearby tanks. Like you build an M20 and upgrade it with additional scouting tools or command tools.

So basically you will have a recon element integrated into your combat force rather than having only individual spotters accross the field.

When u put it like that, I like this version.
One concern for me is, when your getting pushed and enemy has most of the vision how do you send out your unit with scout ability, so that it doesn't get killed before it can camouflage or scout anything. (like at guns/tanks and ambush units or other scouts in camo ambush) (presuming it cant crawl)

[Stug Life]

In overall I like this concept.

Although, for the most part I'd just go with general light vehicles like jeeps and bikes upgradable or by default obtaining observe the area ability or stationary vision providing.

The idea of having any number of invisible scouts with a cool down ability to decamo anything on the map is not stimulatng proper micro at all.
U just click and wait. At least, I'd rework or make basic scout units that we have now in either doctrinal or tiering dependable.

That's a concern yes (rather I think more spotters would spot each other), but the binoculars as they are now, cover such a field, u can hardly place units in camo, whit out the spotter seeing it as you do it. So when u cant always see that field actively, imo you have more chance to place that mg and at in hiding. (the spotting cooldown could be increased so u cant just spam the spot ability.)

[Warhawks97]

That's a concern yes (rather I think more spotters would spot each other), but the binoculars as they are now, cover such a field, u can hardly place units in camo, whit out the spotter seeing it as you do it. So when u cant always see that field actively, imo you have more chance to place that mg and at in hiding. (the spotting cooldown could be increased so u cant just spam the spot ability.)

this is one of the reasons why i think mines are a waste towards late game. Early on you can set up some nice traps, but later not really unless you dominate your opponent in all areas. Funny enough, being in the defense is a nightmare when trying to use some mines anywhere.

When u put it like that, I like this version.
One concern for me is, when your getting pushed and enemy has most of the vision how do you send out your unit with scout ability, so that it doesn't get killed before it can camouflage or scout anything. (like at guns/tanks and ambush units or other scouts in camo ambush) (presuming it cant crawl)

True, but perhaps you dont need to reach so far out to make at least small gains. Also you can make them spot a place further in the distance with additional recon upgrade or let them drop smoke on a larger area with radio coms so that you can start a push with infantry to test enemies defense.

So i think its the number of different recon elemets reaching from recon squads to recon vehicles that should enable you to make some progress.


I mean ofc, an issue would still be to actually prepare for an attack as long as the game is all about artillery barrages every 10 seconds down range at the general direction of your enemie.

[Consti255]

It could also fix the more or less critisised crawling system.
A unit, that can detect crawling units, but isnt a unarmed single unit, can even resist some crawling ambushes when seen early enough.

What also could be cool, as hawks touched it.
The recon units even could be doc specific.

US
Inf doc = 3-4men recon sqaud (cheap but squishy)
AB doc = AB observation sqaud which can call in cheaper spy planes
Armor doc= M20s, jeeps and chaffees

WH
Defense doc= OP points, bunkers and other buildings (maybe even a buildable radio which camos like RAF )
BK doc = beefy infantry sqaud 3-4 men (more expensive but better weponary)
Terror doc = finally a purpose for the v-sturm ?! A small unit whith the ability to fire a faust, or simply use HTs or infantry units

CW
Canadians = well we have the spotter already ( i think is pretty unique in its role and should be kept)
RAF = Royal Commandos recon sqaud (the only crawling recon sqaud with 3 members after the camo unlock), Spy planes
RE = Dingos, Staghounds, command tank

PE
SE = Krads,Schwimms and oberserver HT
Luft = perhabs Luft specific recon unit, Maybe the only Sniper which can swap between a rifle or bino?
PS = Sdkfz. 222, scout cars and the Observation P IV.

I think one general unit that can fullfill the job in a certain extend would be necessary, but the doc specific should be better options for more bang for your buck. (Higher costs)