75 mm leig AoE

[tarakancheg]

Agree with Hawks on everything, especially arty topic.

[Krieger Blitzer]

Unique in which way? That it has crazy AoE while also having the advantage of being: Extremely mobile, able to camo that also boosts damage and thus its AoE even further and can also be used as artillery unit?

Only the def doc 88 is perhaps more fersatile but it cant camo and cant move. So having a unit this tiny and cheap but still so flexible that it is a powerfull defensive asset as well as an powerfull defensive asset makes it super unique already. It doesnt have to outclass specialized arty units like pack howitzer (which it clearly does let alone its far superior mobility) and doesnt need to outclass assault infantry guns such as the RAF field gun.

One thing for sure is that it does not outclass the 75mm pack howitzers at all.. the arty barrage on the Lieg18 is clearly much weaker, specifically vs fortifications & houses... The barrage ability on the Lieg18 tickles the enemy and barely does any damage compared to the 75mm pack howitzers.. just one 75mm pack Howitzer can single handedly take out or completely demolish a Flak 88 emplacement in 1 salvo, go try it if u find this hard to believe.

One more thing; the Lieg18 will be revealed right away once its arty barrage scores a hit.. whereas, the 75mm pack howitzers location will not be revealed except after scoring 3 hits in the row.

Lieg18 isn't as deadly as u describe.. it can be easily flanked & destroyed.
Moreover, the RAF field gun has insane range and super wide cone of fire... Lieg18 cone of fire doesn't even come close.

The camo damage boost u speak about is 1 shot, then it's revealed.. so it's not like it keeps getting the damage boost all the time, simply use the spotter scope ability to reveal the LieG before u attack it.

So, throwing away almost all your starting units in a brainless manner in order to get the CP to get a big ass arty unit to start bombing your opponent right after 4 mins into the game is ok for you? Srsly, i had a couple of games now where essentially only one real engagment took place in the early game and the howitzer was up already. Thats just broken.

No, it's not broken because rushing for arty can also be a significant reason for defeat.. remember Def doc player doesn't have any infilteration tools (CQB for example which can spawn to kill the 105 howitzers) or crawling inf (such as Rangers) that can sneak up & camo, or any potent multi-role tanks for assault.. and no such close combat ready inf units with Thompsons installed for Free, since all Def doc inf require loads of ammo upgrades to be combat ready at last.

Def doc used to have an unlock that enabled them to throw some artillery on a capture point in order to defend that one. That would be some sort usefull off map arty to start with rather than being able to get this artillery unit instantly which grants you artillery superiority for quite some time.

This unlock is still there btw, but currently it's only obtainable together with the 155mm off-map after 8 CPs.
However, even if this was available earlier.. it can only be used on friendly territories being neutralized by enemy troops... So, still nothing like the inf doc 105mm off-map which can be used to destroy these Def doc 2 CP 105 howitzers anywhere on the map.

Also, now this is very important.. did u know that the 75mm HT is actually such a super powerful counter to Def doc 105mm howitzers?? i bet u didn't.
it's a mobile 75mm Pack Howitzer that has HE & very capable arty barrage vs fortifications, AT guns & Mortars as well as any howitzers. The range is also very high... Lest u had known.
This useful 75mm HT can also counter the LieG so easily.
So, does Def doc have an equivelant to that?? Nope.. it's a lot harder for Def doc players to find & kill US 105 howitzers due to lack of infilteration tools, early mobile arty or off-maps that can target them anywhere.

As said, 105 for such a low price is insane, regardless of faction or doctrine. It should always require more tec and CP´s.
As for the 105 arty and heavier arty in general as you asking about it:

Minimum should be:
1. 3-4 CP
2. 400 MP/40-50 fuel build cost
3. Panzer Factory, Panzer Support building or Motorpool upgrade or supply yard being up.
4. Range: 275 in order to make it less easy to counter with random rocket artillery salvos since many rockets fly well beyond the max range and target area.
4. Fuel upkeep of 2.

Disagreed.. 105 howitzers are fine as is, they already cost loads of ammo upkeep.

As for the Grille:
It is still one of those "old school BK logic": Make it super expensive and super bad ass. Its like the king on a chessboard that you have to beat. Or the Queen that completely destroys you when you dont take care of it. We have managed to give units roles to fit into a wider set of units rather than "single army units". We did this with every unit so far, including units like Tigers and so on.

I just want the Grille to be not just a "Hummel+" but a unit in its very own sense with its own purpose that you get for certain situations. Right now it is: "Get it, its always the right decision." So if you are unsure what you may need or what your enemie comes up with: Get Grille.

Grille costs 6 CP, and it's in a different path from 105mm howitzers.. meaning at least 8 CPs if the Def player rushes for 105 howitzers... So, i am not sure how the solution is "always rush for Grille" as this statement sounds extremely unrealistic, not to mention that with this logic, "always rushing for Priest" would be a lot more compelling to tell... 1 Grille can't do shit vs 2 Priest sniping it with aimed salvo, neither would Hummels be able to counter the Priests for the exact same reason, but also in addition to much higher ammo upkeep & late availability.

That said, the only thing i could agree with; is how Grille barrage cool-down should be longer.. but nothing else.

SE:
Sorry, but EVERY game i played was vs SE, usually double SE with firestorms and sector arty instantly and nonstop. 2 Off maps for 3 CP in total, one defensive, one offensive, is plain stupid.

Firestorm is actually a joke compared to much cheaper & much more powerful RA doc spotters off-map.
Sector Arty is a pure defensive arty that can be easily avoided as it's used only in friendly territories.
I dare to say SE doc is one of the easiest Axis docs to deter.. since the removal of Wespe from this doc, and every single arty piece SE doc can provide is super hungry in terms of ammo upkeep.. starting from 210mm Nebels, 120mm Mortars, & all the way up to Hotchkiss & Hummels.. each of these consume nothing less than 10 ammo upkeep for most of them.

I am honestly getting a lot bothered by these recent complaints.. it makes me feel that every match u play, there is always something to complain about or lead to a request for complete overhaul on something... Can u tell when was the last time i had this attitude or any other player here? I haven't posted any such topics for quite a long time myself.. that's because i think the game currently is super balanced & fun. So i only stick to bug reports or representing ideas every now & then (such as ALRS for Pershing ACE as an example) but really i don't get how everytime u play, things will be broken to you! No matter what changes would take place...

[Warhawks97]

One thing for sure is that it does not outclass the 75mm pack howitzers at all.. the arty barrage on the Lieg18 is clearly much weaker, specifically vs fortifications & houses... The barrage ability on the Lieg18 tickles the enemy and barely does any damage compared to the 75mm pack howitzers.. just one 75mm pack Howitzer can single handedly take out or completely demolish a Flak 88 emplacement in 1 salvo, go try it if u find this hard to believe.

Yes, the pack howitzer is has a 1.8 damage boost right at the spot where it lands compared to i think 1.5 for leig. Emplacments are huge and super easy targets. So far i have never built a 88 or artillery emplacment. Its not worth the cost since its so huge that every counter artillery always makes a full hit. I only use naked howitzers and 88, they will survive counter artillery a lot easier. Idk why people still go for the emplaced versions of them. Not my fault. But in a similiar way every emplacment except for machine gun nests ( and except perhaps those of RE) die quickly to mortars/light medium arty. This is not an argument for the pack howitzer.

One more thing; the Lieg18 will be revealed right away once its arty barrage scores a hit.. whereas, the 75mm pack howitzers location will not be revealed except after scoring 3 hits in the row.

Lieg18 isn't as deadly as u describe.. it can be easily flanked & destroyed.
Moreover, the RAF field gun has insane range and super wide cone of fire... Lieg18 cone of fire doesn't even come close.

The camo damage boost u speak about is 1 shot, then it's revealed.. so it's not like it keeps getting the damage boost all the time, simply use the spotter scope ability to reveal the LieG before u attack it.

Yes, the combined power of the better AoE brackets and the 25% damage boost will kill most units with a single shot. Thats what we keep talking about: There is a lot of one shot killer HE weapons right in the early game like the 37 mm, 81 mm mortars and this thing.

I use pak 36 and this thing usually in conjunction with bikes and halftracks that will provide some nice cover at the flanks and enable me to keep reinforcing/recrewing these weapons.

No, it's not broken because rushing for arty can also be a significant reason for defeat.. remember Def doc player doesn't have any infilteration tools (CQB for example which can spawn to kill the 105 howitzers) or crawling inf (such as Rangers) that can sneak up & camo, or any potent multi-role tanks for assault.. and no such close combat ready inf units with Thompsons installed for Free, since all Def doc inf require loads of ammo upgrades to be combat ready at last.

yes, i know, like the last 4 vs 4 i had when our enemie with double SE and def doc overused artillery. They had an overkill of artillery on the field but never actually attacked. So we couldnt lose despite the fact that we were out of units many times over. We won because i just mass produced rifle squads to make them expand all their ressources. If only they had one 20 mm car on the field they had won. But they only got artillery.

And if you keep your arty away from houses or put units into them or turn them into HQ there is no way to "simply sneak up" on them. And even if, you lost 450 MP minimum. Your enemie will just recrew the gun and lost perhaps 50 MP. All that "crawling" and "sneaky house spawn" maybe works once but its risky and expands all the ressources of your enemie.

So one way or another, rushing the 105 always pays off. Even if it doesnt whipe whole units, it will still prevent your enemie of planning attacks in the early-mid stage by constantly throwing barrages. And if your enemie decides to counter them, they will always need to spend a lot more CP´s while also taking higher risks. Why does he take higher risks:

1. Trying to sneak on them requires lot of skill, ressources (they cost a lot) and research. And still they take the risk to fail that which results in a huge harm to their war economy. Meanwhile, Def player didnt take any risk. 2 CP´s is not hard to get (build base, OP ammo points and tada, its there) and can tec other branches while the enemie is trying to figure out how to counter it (sneak, counter arty, planes). So the pressure you can put up on your enemie to react to this threat is huge while you didn risk much at all to get it.

2. Trying to get superior arty to counter it takes massive ressources and CP´s away that makes you vulnerable to other threats such as tanks (eg you dont get a M10 for 0 CP).

In short: Getting the 2 CP howitzer always brings you in a favourable position, even if you dont kill a single target with it. Its pure existence so early into the game.
So i would prefer to increase Tec and cost requirments to field such artillery but at the same time giving them more range. So going for them will always be a deep strategic decision. If i remember correctly, this is what devs wanted after the doc reworks. Longer term base strategic decisions on where to spend CP´s on.

This unlock is still there btw, but currently it's only obtainable together with the 155mm off-map after 8 CPs.
However, even if this was available earlier.. it can only be used on friendly territories being neutralized by enemy troops... So, still nothing like the inf doc 105mm off-map which can be used to destroy these Def doc 2 CP 105 howitzers anywhere on the map.

Dont you see the irony? Def doc is supposed to hold ground in the first place with stiff resistannce. Instead you can bomb the shit of out of your enemie with so much artillery so early into the game, but you have to tec a lot longer to get actuall stuff that helps you to defend your ground. This is irony at its best. Btw, you need vision on it before you can drop arty on it.

Also, now this is very important.. did u know that the 75mm HT is actually such a super powerful counter to Def doc 105mm howitzers?? i bet u didn't.
it's a mobile 75mm Pack Howitzer that has HE & very capable arty barrage vs fortifications, AT guns & Mortars as well as any howitzers. The range is also very high... Lest u had known.
This useful 75mm HT can also counter the LieG so easily.
So, does Def doc have an equivelant to that?? Nope.. it's a lot harder for Def doc players to find & kill US 105 howitzers due to lack of infilteration tools, early mobile arty or off-maps that can target them anywhere.

1. It requires a lot more tec than leig 18
2. Costs more fuel than the 105 does.
3. Is most expensive to use for each barrage in its artillery class. I do use it extensively but it also eats up a lot of my ammo. Most of the time i am forced to get it even when i dont want to go arty heavy in the first place. But unless you somehow soften the multitude of "HE defenses" you aint get far with your squishy starting infantry, even when you try to drop smoke on every HE shooting weapon.
3. Its direct fire HE is timed and also requires ammo in each use and sets your arty ability on cooldown and vise versa. Have you ever seen a leig 18 being on cooldown once it was in direct fire mode or artillery mode? Despite its direct fire HE has shorter range and is being less deadly. Charging inf always forced my HT to retreat. Cant say the same about the leig 18. The HT is also not invisible ttw, so you dont run into it by mistake.
4. The range of that thing is 150 compared to 225 of the howitzer, so you got to get quite close to it in order to give counter barrage.
5. BK has the maultier for 0 CP with a higher degree of destructive power. So idk why you compare infantry field artillery with mechanized artillery stuff.

Grille costs 6 CP, and it's in a different path from 105mm howitzers.. meaning at least 8 CPs if the Def player rushes for 105 howitzers... So, i am not sure how the solution is "always rush for Grille" as this statement sounds extremely unrealistic, not to mention that with this logic, "always rushing for Priest" would be a lot more compelling to tell... 1 Grille can't do shit vs 2 Priest sniping it with aimed salvo, neither would Hummels be able to counter the Priests for the exact same reason, but also in addition to much higher ammo upkeep & late availability.

That said, the only thing i could agree with; is how Grille barrage cool-down should be longer.. but nothing else.

Depends on the handling. Ive seen many quite capable players being able to literally counter snipe all arty with their grille. Its shoot and scoot ability is unmatched. I also saw the Hummel as a quite decent counter to priests.
So you need two priests+ spotter + mark target+ accurate barrage+ super long cooldown to actually match the Grille that doesnt need any of that.

Firestorm is actually a joke compared to much cheaper & much more powerful RA doc spotters off-map.
Sector Arty is a pure defensive arty that can be easily avoided as it's used only in friendly territories.
I dare to say SE doc is one of the easiest Axis docs to deter.. since the removal of Wespe from this doc, and every single arty piece SE doc can provide is super hungry in terms of ammo upkeep.. starting from 210mm Nebels, 120mm Mortars, & all the way up to Hotchkiss & Hummels.. each of these consume nothing less than 10 ammo upkeep for most of them.

I am honestly getting a lot bothered by these recent complaints.. it makes me feel that every match u play, there is always something to complain about or lead to a request for complete overhaul on something... Can u tell when was the last time i had this attitude or any other player here? I haven't posted any such topics for quite a long time myself.. that's because i think the game currently is super balanced & fun. So i only stick to bug reports or representing ideas every now & then (such as ALRS for Pershing ACE as an example) but really i don't get how everytime u play, things will be broken to you! No matter what changes would take place...

It is not a joke. Its an offmap that absoloutely forces a retreat and leaves a burning ground for quite some time. Nice against forward HQ´s. In that 4 vs 4 they revealed the forward CW HQ and dropped firestorm on all the inf there. The player just so run away from it just to be hit by the second firestorm from the second player. And from then onward only hotchkiss bombardments.
Also you need to get spotter unlock and the artillery unlock and bring your spotter into position. Firestorm is an off map artillery strike. WH officers offmap is the best counterpart to CW spotter arty,

So far, SE currently is: Get the off maps-> get hotchkiss-> Use cheap Hummel.

To your last question: Yes, i come back to BK, play several games a day for a few days, just to see all the repetetive shit happening again. Less so against new players but those who have an idea of the game and the abusive stuff and cost efficency of their units know how to abuse literally the same shit over and over and its one repetetive game after another. I host Rosmalen for a reason so often with standard res trying to get arround these metas but damn, i sit there for hours because every idiot likes to play HR games, bunch up a pile of super deadly HE firing weapons and get arty asap to ruin all fun in every game.
Perhaps this is why i come back after like every third game i play.

[Consti255]

I agree with Hawks on the Arty topic.
For SE and Def doc.

I gladly repeat myself aswell as Hawks, 2 CP arty is a absolutely no brainer for such price and low tiering cost. No matter what, if you face def doc, you face early 105mm, thats a fact.
And please, dont come along with the same old argument, PLAY BIGGER MAPs.
First, we lack big maps which are balanced out well ( i dont wanna play rosmalen or lafiere 2v2 over and oaver again), second the majority of players are unwilling to change their map pool. I think ignoring that is a mistake in such a small community, where it is not normal to find games.

I think we went the wrong path with SE overall, since now it is just a copy paste Def straight arty doc, with powerful offmaps and devastating 150mm barages but without emplacements.
In my head, when i am thinking about SE its general purpose should be a mobile and guerilla like defense, with a concentration with ambushes, mines fire and traps.
SE lacks to be SE in general. Its just a PE doc with PE base units and big dick guns, which needs a fuck ton of CP and ammo to even enter the game.
Arty is just way to effective in this game not to go for, so i think just limiting it among ALL docs would be a welcome change. Arty just destroys the shine off many docs and overshadow their fun and unique gameplay styles and units.
Who even uses mines as SE or even goes for the sabotage unit? Noone since you need all the CP for arty or ammo for their salvos.

there is actually nothing in this game what 75mm howitzer cannot take care of speaking of emplacemnts, except bunkers. But bunkers are a whole new topic on their own, because even 105 and even 150mm struggle to put them down. So approaching them is a different story anyway.

What i dont agree with, is the straight nerf to the Leig18. I like it as it is, a mobile 75mm howitzer to give decent fire support to your units.
Heck make it more expensive and add a ammo price on top as the US 75mm , but please dont touch its general numbers and stuff.

[Walderschmidt]

Jesus. I'm gone for a day or so and this place blows up.

First of all - this thread is about the LeiG. Not defense doc arty or SE arty. Or the 37mm PaK.

Here's a thread for 2 CP Arty in Defense Doctrine (1) and here's a thread about SE arty (2) or 37mm PaK.

1) viewtopic.php?f=15&t=4747
2) viewtopic.php?f=15&t=4749
3) viewtopic.php?f=15&t=4748&p=42742#p42742

Second of all - the LeiG has already been nerfed. I think it is fine where it is. I don't think it's OP and unless I see at least ONE or TWO replays showcasing it overperforming, I remain unconvinced that there's any gameplay reason to look at it further.

I have trouble with RAF sometimes because it seems like after they get a certain amount of vet, they just don't die to HE or anything. And no I can only have one sniper so it's harder to hard counter them. That said, it was only one or two games. And I think they were good because of the other team playing better/having a better strategy than them just being straight up OP. So I haven't posted any threads about them since their monster AT infantry squad got appropriately nerfed.

Lastly - again my complaint with suggestions Warhawks is not just that you think one thing is a problem where I don't, but rather your solution is to revamp the whole game rather than tune up or down unit in question slightly, which is way more complicated to implement and test.

If you had just said, "I think we ought to make the AoE brackets a little smaller" or some other detail (remove camo bonus damage on 1st shot?) and focused on that you would have gotten way less pushback on this thread. That is part of why your last LeiG suggestion was actually considered by the devs and I even agreed with you even though my Wehraboo side didn't want to see it nerfed. The other thing is that you start bringing up all other doctrines and arty and make the conversation way bigger than it needs to be. The core thesis of this thread is the question of whether not the LeiG has a problem that ought to be fixed.

My answer is no. Furthermore, I would say that it is the way you argue your ideas that has a problem that ought to be fixed.

Wald

Edit: Previous LeiG thread for reference

[Walderschmidt]

I agree with Hawks on the Arty topic.
For SE and Def doc.

I gladly repeat myself aswell as Hawks, 2 CP arty is a absolutely no brainer for such price and low tiering cost. No matter what, if you face def doc, you face early 105mm, thats a fact.
And please, dont come along with the same old argument, PLAY BIGGER MAPs.
First, we lack big maps which are balanced out well ( i dont wanna play rosmalen or lafiere 2v2 over and oaver again), second the majority of players are unwilling to change their map pool. I think ignoring that is a mistake in such a small community, where it is not normal to find games.

I think we went the wrong path with SE overall, since now it is just a copy paste Def straight arty doc, with powerful offmaps and devastating 150mm barages but without emplacements.
In my head, when i am thinking about SE its general purpose should be a mobile and guerilla like defense, with a concentration with ambushes, mines fire and traps.
SE lacks to be SE in general. Its just a PE doc with PE base units and big dick guns, which needs a fuck ton of CP and ammo to even enter the game.
Arty is just way to effective in this game not to go for, so i think just limiting it among ALL docs would be a welcome change. Arty just destroys the shine off many docs and overshadow their fun and unique gameplay styles and units.
Who even uses mines as SE or even goes for the sabotage unit? Noone since you need all the CP for arty or ammo for their salvos.

there is actually nothing in this game what 75mm howitzer cannot take care of speaking of emplacemnts, except bunkers. But bunkers are a whole new topic on their own, because even 105 and even 150mm struggle to put them down. So approaching them is a different story anyway.

What i dont agree with, is the straight nerf to the Leig18. I like it as it is, a mobile 75mm howitzer to give decent fire support to your units.
Heck make it more expensive and add a ammo price on top as the US 75mm , but please dont touch its general numbers and stuff.

I posted your thoughts here:

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=4749&p=42746#p42746

Wald

[Warhawks97]

If you had just said, "I think we ought to make the AoE brackets a little smaller" or some other detail (remove camo bonus damage on 1st shot?) and focused on that you would have gotten way less pushback on this thread. That is part of why your last LeiG suggestion was actually considered by the devs and I even agreed with you even though my Wehraboo side didn't want to see it nerfed. The other thing is that you start bringing up all other doctrines and arty and make the conversation way bigger than it needs to be. The core thesis of this thread is the question of whether not the LeiG has a problem that ought to be fixed.

Check my first points and you will find the answer to that. I gave detailed informations about my findings, impressions and suggested properly new AoE brackets.


About concerns of their effectivness vs emplacments: Not much would change since esspecially large emplacments will often be hit "directly" which means taking the maximum possible damage of this gun. I just wanted to adjust the AoE brackets which in my opinion enabled this gun esspecially in the early game to whipe the standard inf squads way too quickly which already suffer enough from the ammount of monster like AoE units such as the 81 mm mortar and 37 mm pak.

I just got accused of stuff based on pure suspicion to which i just tried to reply.

[Redgaarden]

A small thing and a bug. Leig bombardment doesn't have hotkey I would prefer it was B like other arty.

Everytime you recrew one that one doesn't count towards your leig limit of 2. If I double click it, it wont select all other leig but if I double click a non re-crewed leig it selects all leigs even the re-crewed ones.

[Warhawks97]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FaQPWtr4Ae4

11:46: Moments like these i keep observing. I mean yes, it was only one men from a weapon crew and not a super tanky heavy elite solider with trillions of received damage reducing stuff etc, but still. I saw a full mortar squad in yellow cover dying to a leig18 shot that fell pretty far away from them.

Can we just take a look at AoE effects in game pls? Not just for this weapon.

[Walderschmidt]

A small thing and a bug. Leig bombardment doesn't have hotkey I would prefer it was B like other arty.

Everytime you recrew one that one doesn't count towards your leig limit of 2. If I double click it, it wont select all other leig but if I double click a non re-crewed leig it selects all leigs even the re-crewed ones.

Yes, this should definitely be fixed.

Wald