Panzer IV H

[MEFISTO]

Hello guys, I haven’t paying in a while but, I still think PIV H price (60 fuel and 55 after mass production upgrade is the same.
In my opinion 60 fuel for a PIV H is too much taking in consideration that a 76mm Sherman (45 fuel) can easily handle it or even a hellcat can bully the PIV H shooting and running back.
I would reduce their price to 55 and 50 fuel after mass production upgrade. Pardon me if the price are like I recommend, I haven’t played in a while but last time I did it I feel this PIV H overpriced.

[Consti255]

There is no Panzer IV G in the game?
Do you mean the F2 ?

[MEFISTO]

There is no Panzer IV G in the game?
Do you mean the F2 ?

OMG,I am sorry mate, I mean Panzer IV H, seems I am sick with a Panther G disease, lol, thank you.

[Consti255]

aj okay.
Yeah i would be fine with it. A general Cost drop after the mass production got unlocked seems right.
The P4 HE is eeeh.
Maybe this would make the PV4 spam more attractive over the Stug Spam.

[Warhawks97]

I think this debate fits into the overall Medium tank debate. Shermans are just insanely cheap in terms of fuel as are most medium tanks on US and axis side. On the other hand, the panzer IV H is just insanely expensive in terms of MP (as are most mediums and light tanks, but the H is just insane).

[Sukin-kot (SVT)]

Agreed, it’s expensive but worse than Sherman in every way. Some buff to stats would be great as well. It’s HP and mobility are especially frustrating.

[Redgaarden]

550mp for a tank that is slow (acceleration) and gets oneshot by 17Pounder and 90mm is quite steep for me. The mg42 and is nice, and the gun does deal with light and medium vehicles quite well.
But yeah. It's way more expensive than an E8 But I guess the price should be that high since it starts with top mg and side skirts. And you still have the J variant if you dont like the H.
The H has its uses.

[Consti255]

Worth mentioning is the better chance of bounceing zooks, which makes it to a a very versitile tank.
Still, i think its overpriced and i rather upgrade the skirts if the price drops down to 350-400MP and 50Fuel.

A other change would be a small accleration increase and overall speed buff, which i prefer.

[Krieger Blitzer]

Not sure if it's bad RNG or the 37mm AT gun is actually over-performing vs Pz4s

[Red]

For me, the Panzer IV H is also quite unattrachtive. Before cost reduction it's way too expensive, and paying an extra 3CP after paying 2CP to unlock it just does not have a good cost/reward ratio. For those 5 CP I would almost be (1 CP to go) at building Panther or alternatively have StuGs and Elite Infantry.

[Warhawks97]

The armor is good on this thing, frequently boncing zooks and you got a top mounted mg for free as well as skirts (which are just insane compared to what skirts usually give as boost). If you put it 1 vs 1 vs a 76 sherman, it feels like it wins most of the time. Still paying 550 MP makes it relatively hard to use it in combined arms with other forces which this doc is supposed to to. Its usually more appealing to get a bunch of F2´s for 0 CP along with storms or Panzer IV J which require 3 CP in total while being a hell lot cheaper or go with stug III spam.

The mobility of the Tank IV is what really hampers its usefullness. Based on pure combat performance the cost arent that bad. However from an investment point of view or tactical point of view its most of the time just a MP drain.

Thats why i said i would treat this more as a medium tank issue and not so much a Tank IV H specific issue. Dropping the cost to 400 MP as consti to 400 MP would turn this into a complete no-brainer spam tank. In fact the J costs 410 without skirts and has a slow turning turret, so....

[Consti255]

350-400 after the massproduction ofc.
Sry, i did not make it clear.

[MEFISTO]

The armor is good on this thing, frequently boncing zooks and you got a top mounted mg for free as well as skirts (which are just insane compared to what skirts usually give as boost). If you put it 1 vs 1 vs a 76 sherman, it feels like it wins most of the time. Still paying 550 MP makes it relatively hard to use it in combined arms with other forces which this doc is supposed to to. Its usually more appealing to get a bunch of F2´s for 0 CP along with storms or Panzer IV J which require 3 CP in total while being a hell lot cheaper or go with stug III spam.

The mobility of the Tank IV is what really hampers its usefullness. Based on pure combat performance the cost arent that bad. However from an investment point of view or tactical point of view its most of the time just a MP drain.

Thats why i said i would treat this more as a medium tank issue and not so much a Tank IV H specific issue. Dropping the cost to 400 MP as consti to 400 MP would turn this into a complete no-brainer spam tank. In fact the J costs 410 without skirts and has a slow turning turret, so....

Same way armor can spam Sherman 76mm after 3 CP, the difference is this cost 5CP. I agree this PIV H must cost more than a sherman 76 after mass production because it comes with the Mg and the skirts, I would reduce its price to 450mp and 50 fuel or 45 fuel, I am not sure about the HP of a sherman 76 and if the skirts increase the HP of the PIV H, Devs may can give us the hp number in both cases. I also think mass production is a the wrong spot in the CP unlock tree ( I have to get deep on this and check it out)

[idliketoplaybetter]

Not sure if it's bad RNG or the 37mm AT gun is actually over-performing vs Pz4s

Actually, I had the same situation, but rather 37mm ATg vs Stug4 +armor upgrade (I'd assume they are technically speaking identical with pz4 + skirts).

ATgun was capable of killing my first Stug in like 3shots from long distance, every shot pen. And it basically almost happened twice, as my 2nd Stug was crippled as well, by the same unit. Unsure if AP rounds were used though. But long distance, huh..


As for the topic, PZ4 is very capable unit, with all the flaws listed. The biggest flaw is the CP cost and practical usability of it in the current gameplay, not necessarily FUEL price ratio. However, there is no spare fuel for it, as you might end up needing faster tiering. So you almost never want this unit.

I'd suggest making better offmap call group that includes Pz4 H Varient. We used to have those long ago, it were spammed/either came out too early, /overused, but we may be able to find solution now?

[Warhawks97]

The armor is good on this thing, frequently boncing zooks and you got a top mounted mg for free as well as skirts (which are just insane compared to what skirts usually give as boost). If you put it 1 vs 1 vs a 76 sherman, it feels like it wins most of the time. Still paying 550 MP makes it relatively hard to use it in combined arms with other forces which this doc is supposed to to. Its usually more appealing to get a bunch of F2´s for 0 CP along with storms or Panzer IV J which require 3 CP in total while being a hell lot cheaper or go with stug III spam.

The mobility of the Tank IV is what really hampers its usefullness. Based on pure combat performance the cost arent that bad. However from an investment point of view or tactical point of view its most of the time just a MP drain.

Thats why i said i would treat this more as a medium tank issue and not so much a Tank IV H specific issue. Dropping the cost to 400 MP as consti to 400 MP would turn this into a complete no-brainer spam tank. In fact the J costs 410 without skirts and has a slow turning turret, so....

Same way armor can spam Sherman 76mm after 3 CP, the difference is this cost 5CP. I agree this PIV H must cost more than a sherman 76 after mass production because it comes with the Mg and the skirts, I would reduce its price to 450mp and 50 fuel or 45 fuel, I am not sure about the HP of a sherman 76 and if the skirts increase the HP of the PIV H, Devs may can give us the hp number in both cases. I also think mass production is a the wrong spot in the CP unlock tree ( I have to get deep on this and check it out)

as i said, i am against another dump braindead tank spam that doesnt require fuel basically.

I'd suggest making better offmap call group that includes Pz4 H Varient. We used to have those long ago, it were spammed/either came out too early, /overused, but we may be able to find solution now?

The ultimate goal would be to get rid of all fuel free tanks. It always ends up being unfair since one side has to make sure to controle fuel points while the other side can literally skip the fuel points and spam tanks anyways.

[MEFISTO]

The armor is good on this thing, frequently boncing zooks and you got a top mounted mg for free as well as skirts (which are just insane compared to what skirts usually give as boost). If you put it 1 vs 1 vs a 76 sherman, it feels like it wins most of the time. Still paying 550 MP makes it relatively hard to use it in combined arms with other forces which this doc is supposed to to. Its usually more appealing to get a bunch of F2´s for 0 CP along with storms or Panzer IV J which require 3 CP in total while being a hell lot cheaper or go with stug III spam.

The mobility of the Tank IV is what really hampers its usefullness. Based on pure combat performance the cost arent that bad. However from an investment point of view or tactical point of view its most of the time just a MP drain.

Thats why i said i would treat this more as a medium tank issue and not so much a Tank IV H specific issue. Dropping the cost to 400 MP as consti to 400 MP would turn this into a complete no-brainer spam tank. In fact the J costs 410 without skirts and has a slow turning turret, so....

Same way armor can spam Sherman 76mm after 3 CP, the difference is this cost 5CP. I agree this PIV H must cost more than a sherman 76 after mass production because it comes with the Mg and the skirts, I would reduce its price to 450mp and 50 fuel or 45 fuel, I am not sure about the HP of a sherman 76 and if the skirts increase the HP of the PIV H, Devs may can give us the hp number in both cases. I also think mass production is a the wrong spot in the CP unlock tree ( I have to get deep on this and check it out)

as i said, i am against another dump braindead tank spam that doesnt require fuel basically.

I'd suggest making better offmap call group that includes Pz4 H Varient. We used to have those long ago, it were spammed/either came out too early, /overused, but we may be able to find solution now?

The ultimate goal would be to get rid of all fuel free tanks. It always ends up being unfair since one side has to make sure to controle fuel points while the other side can literally skip the fuel points and spam tanks anyways.

Then the game will be every body in a trench bombing each other with no tank to break through, specially in this mode where artillery abuse is not a problem. Also, Allies supply yard will dominate the mid late game in a tie match.

[Warhawks97]

Same way armor can spam Sherman 76mm after 3 CP, the difference is this cost 5CP. I agree this PIV H must cost more than a sherman 76 after mass production because it comes with the Mg and the skirts, I would reduce its price to 450mp and 50 fuel or 45 fuel, I am not sure about the HP of a sherman 76 and if the skirts increase the HP of the PIV H, Devs may can give us the hp number in both cases. I also think mass production is a the wrong spot in the CP unlock tree ( I have to get deep on this and check it out)

as i said, i am against another dump braindead tank spam that doesnt require fuel basically.

I'd suggest making better offmap call group that includes Pz4 H Varient. We used to have those long ago, it were spammed/either came out too early, /overused, but we may be able to find solution now?

The ultimate goal would be to get rid of all fuel free tanks. It always ends up being unfair since one side has to make sure to controle fuel points while the other side can literally skip the fuel points and spam tanks anyways.

Then the game will be every body in a trench bombing each other with no tank to break through, specially in this mode where artillery abuse is not a problem. Also, Allies supply yard will dominate the mid late game in a tie match.

1. The so called breakthrough tanks are not affected since their fuel cost are most of the time nicely in line.
2. The medium tanks we talk about are more often just contributing to a stalemate. How often do you see literally a wall of like 2-3 shermans/Panzer IV + stug and M10? VERY OFTEN i suppose. So unless you come with big ass tanks by your own or massive artillery barrages these tanks are some sort of unpenetrationable wall.
3. Very cheap medium tanks killing infantry gameplay quite often entirely and making light tanks obsolete since they cost often just as much.
4. I didnt say we should increase Panzer IV cost. All i said is that we should not orientate downwards (Panzer IV J, Stugs, Shermans wit their 40-45 fuel cost). Instead we should take units like Panzer IV H and sherman firefly as reference point where medium tanks should be in terms of fuel cost.

[MEFISTO]

If you have less medium tanks in the game, the game will become in a hell trench game where artillery will dominate.
To defend a position you don’t necessary need a medium tank, you can use 76mm At or pak40. To push and give good infantry support you need a medium tank capable to take at least 1 zooka shot.

[Redgaarden]

I am not sure about the HP of a sherman 76 and if the skirts increase the HP of the PIV H, Devs may can give us the hp number in both cases.

HP difference is small enough that it makes little to no difference between them. EDIT: is what I think. Someone can prove me wrong.

I you have less medium tanks in the game, the game will become in a hell trench game where artillery will dominate.
To defend a position you don’t necessary need a medium tank, you can use 76mm At or pak40. To push and give good infantry support you need a medium tank capable to take at least 1 zooka shot.

Pz4 can survive anything other than a 17P/90mm gun though?


But yeah, it's the base cost I think the problem is. The manpower is almost closer to Panthers/heavy tanks than other medium tanks. I dont even know what the price of the H is after production cost is lowered.
But the thing is you dont really need to boost it's armor or firepower since you're just paying for the mg42, and if you just need anti tank you can just get F2.
So the H fills in the niche where you need a jack of all trades tank. cost inefficient vs both tanks and infantry but can do both. So I just think the price should be lowered to 480-500 manpower OR increase it's acceleration so it can run away pershings and zooks.

[idliketoplaybetter]

The ultimate goal would be to get rid of all fuel free tanks. It always ends up being unfair since one side has to make sure to controle fuel points while the other side can literally skip the fuel points and spam tanks anyways.

Let's see what we have now and what it might lead to though..

Now, there is cheaper pz4 F2 that is normally used alike hellcat without camo.
It is kind of cheap to get, easy to use (speed and so on).
Most games I was, it comes out at minute, say 15-20 and exactly in order to hopefully defend against first tanks/last motorpool units.

What are alternatives? There are options actually, but all cost more fuel, if I'm not wrong. Which is not an option by itself, since f2 is rarely an attacker, so no potential income be prognosed.

What you end up? People get shreks + pak + f2. In some occasions they even have manpower for tank commander.
Everything is used very defensively. As everything is meant to defend.

This is exactly the core phase of the match where all the potential trenching is born. You end up having around 1k manpower with almost no fuel for anything significant. Same applies to US, somehow. Stage of the game, when you Already either too late if not rushed for 1lucky squish sherman.
You call it problem of middle tanks, I dunno, I see 3-4 recon units in queue with rally point "somewhere on the map" just to get it.
Alle map is visible, but no action. Just waiting.

Can you or can't go for the t4 unit.

The same situation is with jumbo75. Not worth the fuel, better hold the game and get persh.
Jumbo was fun offmap unit though.

[MarKr]

Shermans have 700HP, PIVs 636 - it can sometimes allow the Sherman to survive one extra hit but sometimes not. It depends on the gun shooting and RNG.

Arguments of many people here come down to "PIV H is too expensive and so it is useless, make it cheaper". One thing that people seem to leave out is the general impact on unit costs. PIV H costs 550MP 65F (525MP 55F - after upgrade), J costs 410MP 45F, F2 costs 390MP 40F (360MP 35F), StuG III 350MP 40F, StuG IV 400MP 40F.

The higher the (basic) cost, the better unit you should get. Especially the PIV series shows well that F2 < J < H and especially the only reason why a player would go for J over H is the lower cost. If you make the H cost too low, then there will be literally no reason to ever build J, and we're back at the original argument "PIV J is too expensive because I can pay a bit more and get the H - and so it is useless, make it cheaper". So it would make one underused unit more viable while another unit would become even less viable than now. Unless we drop the cost of J too but then we'll get to the same problem with F2 vs J and F2 is already tackling costs with StuGs and after the unlock even the costs of light vehicles. If we go any lower from there, light vehicles will be more expensive than medium tanks (or just as expensive). I can already guess what the reaction to that would be...

The costs of H remained the same even after Panther changes so the situation now is different than before, when the cost difference between H and Panthers was more significant. However, finding the right cost might be tricky as too little drop will change nothing and people will still complain that the tank is too expensive and too big drop will start a cascade effect across vehicles. Another thing to consider are other abilities that BK doc has at disposal - the resource trades which can solve any contemporary lack of MP.

Red suggested 480-500MP, the production unlock drops that by 25MP and 10F so we'd get to 455-475MP 55F per H while J is 410MP 45F - is that difference big enough to make people still consider getting the J over the H version?

[Sukin-kot (SVT)]

I think that a little acceleration boost + HP equal to 76mm sherman could do the job really well. Shermans would still have more with the sandbags upgrade.

[Warhawks97]

I think that a little acceleration boost + HP equal to 76mm sherman could do the job really well. Shermans would still have more with the sandbags upgrade.

the HP difference was set this way by purpose to make up for the WET storage they had. Normal shermans have 636 HP. The second reason was that US cant really tec beyond shermans except for armor doc. So thats all they got. Germans can always go "one class higher".

I dont have issues with Panzer Iv´s in general. The J is doing awesome due to the spam capabilties, bazooka resistance and free top mount. In TS doc the mix of F2 and J spam can be extremely lethal. I dont need them to really compete with 76 shermans that cost more fuel to build and to maintain while comming later.

The only issue i have with the H is its MP cost even when you had spend 5 CP in total for mass-production etc. Boosting HP of panzer Iv accross the board would cause imbalances while making any attempt to take them out by zooks a fairly pointless endevour.

Red suggested 480-500MP, the production unlock drops that by 25MP and 10F so we'd get to 455-475MP 55F per H while J is 410MP 45F - is that difference big enough to make people still consider getting the J over the H version?

It would i guess, esspecially since in Bk doc the J requires 3 CP, the H with mass production 5 CP.
Cant speak for the TS doc though.

Perhaps the J could go up to 50 fuel but MP drops to like 380 MP. So there would in terms of MP a big incentive to get it.

Also perhaps docs like luft could unlock the J variant rather than F2. TS doc would in return stick with H variant with the new proposed cost.

[MEFISTO]

Red suggested 480-500MP, the production unlock drops that by 25MP and 10F so we'd get to 455-475MP 55F per H while J is 410MP 45F - is that difference big enough to make people still consider getting the J over the H version?

I think Red suggestion goes in the right direction, Any ways this mass production unlock cost 3 more CP to get and they are in a different CP unlock branch, making players don’t go for it and just keep rushing panthers, so it will up to the player to play a cheaper medium tank H mid game or, keep its higher PIV H price and just keep rushing panthers, that will lead to more use of the PIV J and stugs in general.
Also after seeing the HP it would be nice to have similar HP as Sherman, any ways PIV H still will cost more and can be bully by any faster tank because its mobility.

[Warhawks97]

Red suggested 480-500MP, the production unlock drops that by 25MP and 10F so we'd get to 455-475MP 55F per H while J is 410MP 45F - is that difference big enough to make people still consider getting the J over the H version?

I think Red suggestion goes in the right direction, Any ways this mass production unlock cost 3 more CP to get and they are in a different CP unlock branch, making players don’t go for it and just keep rushing panthers, so it will up to the player to play a cheaper medium tank H mid game or, keep its higher PIV H price and just keep rushing panthers, that will lead to more use of the PIV J and stugs in general.
Also after seeing the HP it would be nice to have similar HP as Sherman, any ways PIV H still will cost more and can be bully by any faster tank because its mobility.

the HP increase to the shermans were done so that it operates between the Panzer Iv and Panthers. As i said, shemans facing way more potential threats to which it dies quickly than Panzer Iv´s usually do+ shermans is most of the time the best tank allied can get. Panzer IV´s do not need to match shermans in every aspect. Thats not what they are supposed to. The only issue people had are the high cost of over 500 MP even after mass-production upgrade. In terms of Tankiness they are doing very well. More HP will just add more frustration to the bazooka use and forcing M10 rushes even more. The HP difference mainly has an impact on how well they can surivive handheld AT weapons. And despite the slightly higher sherman HP pool, the Panzer IV afterall has an edge when it comes to handheld AT resistance.
The TS tank IV H and J version also have 650 instead of 636 HP. So the HP difference is small and both require too shots to kill each other since their gun damage is max 600 anyways.