I think it is safe to say that people often just don't use jeeps or scwhimms at all after light vehicles are fully unlocked, and especially after tanks hit the field. Sure, they have decent detection range, but they also die extremely quickly.
With the prevalence of 50 cals on light vehicles and tanks which can often kill schwimms in a single burst, I almost never see people build them late game. They cannot stay in engagements nearly as long as inf or other vehicles. Both alternatives are cheap enough to build that there is little reason to bother building a schwimm in their place when a player is need of a combat unit. They are also generally worse than dedicated scouting units since they don't have binoculars or manual spotting.
The same applies for US jeeps, particularly the 2 unarmored MG variants (30cal and 50cal). There is no sense in buying either when you can spend a little fuel to get a M20 car. The M20 is better armored, armed with a 50cal, and it has a mark target ability with respectable range.
With that in mind, I think it would be worth looking into how to make these units a bit more attractive to build late game. Doing so might even passively assist in addressing the issues with crawling units. Here are some of my ideas:
1. Better Scouting Capabilities
- Give schwimms and jeeps the manual camo detection ability that spotters currently have by default.
- Unlike spotters, these vehicles are armed. While they might not do much damage, they can at least force crawling squads to stand up, slowly cutting said inf down if they dont.
2. "Combat Recon Training" Global Upgrade
- Unlocks a fire mode button on Jeeps and Schwimms, allowing them to function as mobile MG teams. The 'damage' mode would do similar damage to what they can achieve currently, while the suppression mode would provide suppresion capabilities similar to that of their faction's MG teams.
- Wehr Schwimm upgrade: Available in HQ after Panzer Factory is built.
- PE Schwimm upgrade: Available in kampfkraft centre after either tank building is built.
- Jeep upgrade in WSC, available after tank depot is built
3. "Combat Recon Training" Global Upgrade (Alternatives)
- Same as the previous suggestion, but with a longer range mark target button. No prerequisite for the upgrade
- Same as the previous suggestion, but replace the toggle with an active ability functioning similar to the suppression abilities on tanks. 15 second active duration, 105 second cooldown. Same unlock prerequisites as initial suggestion. 0 muni cost since these units dont have the firepower to quickly wipe late game inf the same way that tanks or inf with suppresion abilities can, so they aren't self sufficient.
Suggestion 1 could work with one of the other two, but all 3 suggestions would probably be sufficient on their own in fulfilling the goal of giving players reason to build these units.
Any thoughts, or other suggestions?
Revitalizing Jeeps and Schwimms
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Redgaarden
- Posts: 588
- Joined: 16 Jan 2015, 03:58
Re: Revitalizing Jeeps and Schwimms
Think just increasing their detectin radius could be better.
I kinda dont want to add more upgrades to this game and definitely not some that are niche as this. You already get 20mm puma and m20 so you dont need to add more combat buffs to the jeeps/motorcycle.
And I'm kinda against adding more suppression into the game
I kinda dont want to add more upgrades to this game and definitely not some that are niche as this. You already get 20mm puma and m20 so you dont need to add more combat buffs to the jeeps/motorcycle.
And I'm kinda against adding more suppression into the game
Rifles are not for fighting. They are for building!
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Warhawks97
- Posts: 5395
- Joined: 23 Nov 2014, 21:45
- Location: Germany
Re: Revitalizing Jeeps and Schwimms
Sounds good, but let me add some more ideas:
1. Reduce MP cost and add fuel. That would help to stop some early game spam of these units. Also, if you watched some games, you can abuse Schwimmwagen a lot when combining it with a cheap TD or jagdpanther. Like an Drone swarm that shreds any inf trying to close in and which also repair.
The current cost basically makes it hard to use them as single recon units in late games. But the lack of fuel cost allows for some really absured abuses of these units.
2. These units get an ability called "recon element" that allows either to detect hidden units like the recons can do or increasing the sight range a bit as long as they stand still.
3. US jeeps could be upgraded once WSC is build with cal 50 or RL rifle for 35 and 50 ammo respectively. The cal 50 jeep would then get the ability to suppress infantry or using AP ammo. Recon element ability would be removed ofc.
4. Schwwimmwagen will also receive some possible upgrades like mine laying or repair ability. Their MG damage stats would get tweaked to that of a normal top mounted MG Tanks have and an suppressive ability.
So the units would become better in terms of scouting, stay viable in late game due to low MP cost and can not be abused so easily in games (esspecially HR games). And on top of that they have upgrades that makes them better in specific roles.
1. Reduce MP cost and add fuel. That would help to stop some early game spam of these units. Also, if you watched some games, you can abuse Schwimmwagen a lot when combining it with a cheap TD or jagdpanther. Like an Drone swarm that shreds any inf trying to close in and which also repair.
The current cost basically makes it hard to use them as single recon units in late games. But the lack of fuel cost allows for some really absured abuses of these units.
2. These units get an ability called "recon element" that allows either to detect hidden units like the recons can do or increasing the sight range a bit as long as they stand still.
3. US jeeps could be upgraded once WSC is build with cal 50 or RL rifle for 35 and 50 ammo respectively. The cal 50 jeep would then get the ability to suppress infantry or using AP ammo. Recon element ability would be removed ofc.
4. Schwwimmwagen will also receive some possible upgrades like mine laying or repair ability. Their MG damage stats would get tweaked to that of a normal top mounted MG Tanks have and an suppressive ability.
So the units would become better in terms of scouting, stay viable in late game due to low MP cost and can not be abused so easily in games (esspecially HR games). And on top of that they have upgrades that makes them better in specific roles.
Build more AA Walderschmidt
Re: Revitalizing Jeeps and Schwimms
I like the idea.
Its especially bad, if you compare the WH options against US or CW.
They have the M20 or recce while Axis is stuck with such squishy units.
Its especially bad, if you compare the WH options against US or CW.
They have the M20 or recce while Axis is stuck with such squishy units.
Nerf Mencius
Re: Revitalizing Jeeps and Schwimms
Agreed. WH's light vehicles are way overpriced for what they can achieve though. There are plenty of threads regarding the issues with light vehicles without much pushback (if any), particularly on WH. I made this thread specifically to discuss buffs on jeeps and schwimms, but I agree that light vehicles in general could use some changes, especially after all the recent changes to tanks and inf.
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=4063
WH 20mm puma is decent for early game ,but I often find myself refraining from building them since they just get melted by 50 cals. The shitty pathing doesn't help, especially with how slow it turns on point compared to the PE cars.
50mm puma costs way too much considering it's basically just a TD that can't cloak and rarely one shots anything which takes forever to get on target due to the glacial turret rotation speed. I'd like to see it get ambush or maybe a treadbreaker shot similar to the 37mm HT, but I doubt that will happen (sadly).
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=4265
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=4385
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=3957
The MGs on german HTs should be buffed to similar levels of performance to that currently found on the Schwimm IMO, or they should be way cheaper.
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=4216
Ambush being available on more light vehicles in general would be nice, as they're just way too risky late game when there are tanks all over the map.
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=4060
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Warhawks97
- Posts: 5395
- Joined: 23 Nov 2014, 21:45
- Location: Germany
Re: Revitalizing Jeeps and Schwimms
I remember the dingo going from totally useless to very good. It is one example of how a reconnaissance vehicle can be changed.
I would like to get the base recon vehicles for a low cost providing only the very basic unit. But later you can upgrade them depending on unit, faction and doctrine. They could become literally everything. Upgrade improved recon equipment to observe a larger area, detect hidden units, upgrade camo nets to go ambush, upgrade the weapon into something like a cal 50, upgrade radio to call in light arty strikes or planes, upgrade medical supply so a jeeo can become a healing unit..... Gosh, we just need to be creative here.
I mean srsly, the options we basically have are endless because these units fullfilled many many roles on the battlefield.
When it comes to recon and scout vehicles its the same thing. We can start off with a base unit and then further upgrade them into whatever.
Its also funny that a Puma with the 20 mm gun is able to perform AA duties (something it wasnt suited for due to lack of elevation and turret rotation speed) but cant do a single reconassaince duty.
Basically BK has two main issues:
1. The buildings are often filled with a shitload of units which are often pretty specialized and expensive. And every new weapon system you need requires you to build a new 300-400 MP unit which is super expensive considering how squishy they are. That ends up in rather staying passive and not risking too much.
2. Vehicles are often times extremely expensive. Sometimes in terms of MP, sometimes fuel (just look at def doc) and sometimes both.
So i would go ahead and change two things:
1. Reduce the ammount of buildable units. Instead try to use a set of basic units which can later be upgraded on the field to whatever is needed.
An example could be a PE scout car coming out with an MG by default and costing just 240 MP. Then it can either be upgraded with a 28 mm gun or a radion equipment to secure points or an artillery/spotter like unit which removes the MG and adds radios/bionos whatever.
Second example could be the WH halftrack. Instead of building a new unit for a wurfrahmen or flamethrower they could just be upgrades.
M20 is just another example.
2. By doing point 1, point 2 gets solved as the pure base unit would be always cheap. 180 for jeep/schwimm and like 220-280 MP and 15-25 fuel for a vehicle on average instead of whooping 350-400 and like 35 fuel.
I mean, just as a side note, germans called their changes on vehicles "Field modification". Most of them got added later by the frontline engineers. Only a few of these mods were adopted into the production lines.
The hotchkiss is actually an example of how things could be. Coming out cheap but can be upgraded with stuff. Either right away, or after doc pics or after doc unlocks or tec stages.
I would like to get the base recon vehicles for a low cost providing only the very basic unit. But later you can upgrade them depending on unit, faction and doctrine. They could become literally everything. Upgrade improved recon equipment to observe a larger area, detect hidden units, upgrade camo nets to go ambush, upgrade the weapon into something like a cal 50, upgrade radio to call in light arty strikes or planes, upgrade medical supply so a jeeo can become a healing unit..... Gosh, we just need to be creative here.
I mean srsly, the options we basically have are endless because these units fullfilled many many roles on the battlefield.
When it comes to recon and scout vehicles its the same thing. We can start off with a base unit and then further upgrade them into whatever.
Its also funny that a Puma with the 20 mm gun is able to perform AA duties (something it wasnt suited for due to lack of elevation and turret rotation speed) but cant do a single reconassaince duty.
Basically BK has two main issues:
1. The buildings are often filled with a shitload of units which are often pretty specialized and expensive. And every new weapon system you need requires you to build a new 300-400 MP unit which is super expensive considering how squishy they are. That ends up in rather staying passive and not risking too much.
2. Vehicles are often times extremely expensive. Sometimes in terms of MP, sometimes fuel (just look at def doc) and sometimes both.
So i would go ahead and change two things:
1. Reduce the ammount of buildable units. Instead try to use a set of basic units which can later be upgraded on the field to whatever is needed.
An example could be a PE scout car coming out with an MG by default and costing just 240 MP. Then it can either be upgraded with a 28 mm gun or a radion equipment to secure points or an artillery/spotter like unit which removes the MG and adds radios/bionos whatever.
Second example could be the WH halftrack. Instead of building a new unit for a wurfrahmen or flamethrower they could just be upgrades.
M20 is just another example.
2. By doing point 1, point 2 gets solved as the pure base unit would be always cheap. 180 for jeep/schwimm and like 220-280 MP and 15-25 fuel for a vehicle on average instead of whooping 350-400 and like 35 fuel.
I mean, just as a side note, germans called their changes on vehicles "Field modification". Most of them got added later by the frontline engineers. Only a few of these mods were adopted into the production lines.
The hotchkiss is actually an example of how things could be. Coming out cheap but can be upgraded with stuff. Either right away, or after doc pics or after doc unlocks or tec stages.
Build more AA Walderschmidt
Re: Revitalizing Jeeps and Schwimms
I always just start laughing if you compare a vehicle price to a medium tank price.
because they are the same...
Gosh 350MP and 35 Fuel for a M4 sherman after the unlock, what nonsense is this, while a def doc 28mm HT cost the SAME.
because they are the same...
Gosh 350MP and 35 Fuel for a M4 sherman after the unlock, what nonsense is this, while a def doc 28mm HT cost the SAME.
Nerf Mencius