Luftwaffe tweeks

[MEFISTO]

Hello guys, I have been playing some games as Luftwaffe and I have some suggestions.
Luftwaffe lacks on artillery compared to other doctrines, in the current version Luftwaffe needs 6cp, Gebirgsjaegers on the battlefield and spend 75 ammunition just to deploy a LeIG-18 Infantry Gun, compare to Airborne doctrine that only needs the motor pool upgrade to have access to the 75mm artillery or RAF that just have to deploy a glider and make a 75mm artillery.
What I would do is keep the LeIG-18 Infantry Gun as a Gebirgsjaegers package so can be deploy any where on the map and also give luftwaffe the ability to deploy the LeIG-18 Infantry Gun from the Kampfgruppe Kompanie after Kampfgruppe Kompanie upgrade.
I was also thinking about give Luftwaffe a PIV J and make PIV F2 no CP needed since its equivalent the Sherman 75mm needs no cp and performs good vs F2.
Why PIV J? It can take the place of the F2 in the command tree (CP unlock) and will be a better support and don’t make players just rush a panther to have an armor support to push.

[Consti255]

I agree here.
Luft needs faster access to the leiG18.
Also, i would like them to drop with a crew already, this would eliminate the gun beeing bugged so often.

I gladly agree with the remove of the F1 from the CP tree.
But i would put the Wirbelwind behind CP instead, but make him haveing HE rounds directly available for costing CP.

I dont want a P4 J in this doc overall the same reason why i actually dont want a 76 in AB doc.
They were specilized Tanks that were used in tank divisions not in an Air division. Especially the 76mm Sherman.

I know, the Devs are tired of hearing it, but this basic tank units behind CP is just nonesense.
When you see a Wirbelwind which is clearly a dotrinal unit is available right away and you have to pay 1 CP for this poopy F2 to face a M4.

One reason why AB and Luft need so much CP to work and beeing viable.
Both are because of paradroped units Fun docs but 100% the least effective when it comes to CPs spend and not even close to other docs. Maybe SE, which is also a doc which is beeong discussed alot here.

I hate it

If we cant get CP free basic tanks in this docs, simply remove them from them and give them something which is more engageing and fitting to unlock with your CP.
Like for example elite Flak crews for Luft or a 506. infantry unit for AB which is a SS eqaul bit for way more CP.

[MarKr]

It is not a good thing to compare Luft to AB just because they both have planes and some paratrooper squads. These doctrines intentionally have downsides the others don't but they also have strengths that the others don't. So when you say "AB has light howitzer sooner, so Luft should have LeiG available sooner too", I can say that LeiG can also shoot directly and use camo. I could also say that Luft has Panthers but AB has no equivalent tank, and Luft also has 88mm flak for defense but AB has no such thing. We can also say that Luft infantry is stronger and more capable in dealing with enemy infantry alone and so they don't need the LeiG for arty as much as AB needs it.

Is there any other reason for earlier LeiG than "AB has it"?

Given the strength of infantry and defensive capabilities, the "CP hungry" tanks is an intentional downside for Luft. Luft used to have Hetzers but they were removed as they made most other tanks pretty much obsolete. JPIV would be the same.
So 0CP F1, addition of PIV J and JPIV is really just asking for removing the intended downside of this doctrine.

[Diablo]

[...] I can say that LeiG can also shoot directly and use camo. I could also say that Luft has Panthers but AB has no equivalent tank, and Luft also has 88mm flak for defense but AB has no such thing. We can also say that Luft infantry is stronger and more capable in dealing with enemy infantry alone [...]

Damn I know it's taken out of context but 4:0 for Luftwaffe. Airborne really doesn't look good here.

On a more serious note; so this tank downside for Luft is creating an incentive to risk attacking the enemy with infantry? Is it meant as just a classic weakness or more like a catalyst to keep the game dynamic?

[MarKr]

It is meant as a weakness. Every doctrine has some and people often ask for changes that remove these weaknesses. But if we remove the weaknesses, playstyle of every doctrine will be more or less the same and in that case, why have doctrines at all?

[Consti255]

I still would like to see the F2 CP less and the Wirbelwind take his place.
Even tho its a meant weakness i generally think, a F2 is hard to justify in terms of CP cost.
I have no problem buffing Luft in kinda form, because i think it lacks balancing overall.


When it comes to AB, yeah i totall agree here Markr, its arguebly the least attractive doc to pick overall out of all 12 in the game.
Its funny how bad AB looks compared with Luft (which also isnt a top meta pick).

[MEFISTO]

It is not a good thing to compare Luft to AB just because they both have planes and some paratrooper squads. These doctrines intentionally have downsides the others don't but they also have strengths that the others don't. So when you say "AB has light howitzer sooner, so Luft should have LeiG available sooner too", I can say that LeiG can also shoot directly and use camo. I could also say that Luft has Panthers but AB has no equivalent tank, and Luft also has 88mm flak for defense but AB has no such thing. We can also say that Luft infantry is stronger and more capable in dealing with enemy infantry alone and so they don't need the LeiG for arty as much as AB needs it.

Is there any other reason for earlier LeiG than "AB has it"?

Given the strength of infantry and defensive capabilities, the "CP hungry" tanks is an intentional downside for Luft. Luft used to have Hetzers but they were removed as they made most other tanks pretty much obsolete. JPIV would be the same.
So 0CP F1, addition of PIV J and JPIV is really just asking for removing the intended downside of this doctrine.

The main reason for this change is:
When playing as Luftwaffe and the enemy lock up the map with AA early in the game Luftwaffe doesn't have any artillery support at all untill you spend a ton of CP, also some of these CP you need for the LeiG are in different branches.
I suggest at least to make the LeiG avialable in the Kampfgruppe Kompanie after the weapon package and Kampfgruppe Kompanie Upgrade.
Talking about PIVJ, It't frustrating having only PIV F2 as medium tank support for infantry taking your doctrine CP unlock into rush a panter (to give some suppoert to the infantry). Sherman 76mm Hellcat and M10 can deal with this PIVJ, this change will make luftwaffe a bit more atractive especially in the mid game.

[MarKr]

Why not build a mortar (small 50mm or HT) and shoot smoke at the AA? The AA with smoke debuff won't hit your planes and if the opponent moves it from the smoke, it is no longer in the AA mode and so it won't shoot down your planes either. I'm not saying it is the easiest way to deal with AA, just saying that Luft has ways to deal with AA. Do we have to make every solution to every situation be "1 click her and done"?

Yes, Sherman 76, Hellcat or M10 can destroy F2 but they also require CPs to be built, 2CPs (unless you're Armor doc), so they cost more than the F2. On the other hand the non-CP tanks that allies have (Sherman 75, Cromwell) can F2 destroy rather easily. So if you invest CP into tank and opponent doesn't, you have an advantage over them in tank strength. If they invest CP to have better medium tanks, they have to invest more than you. What is wrong with that?

[Warhawks97]

Why not build a mortar (small 50mm or HT) and shoot smoke at the AA? The AA with smoke debuff won't hit your planes and if the opponent moves it from the smoke, it is no longer in the AA mode and so it won't shoot down your planes either. I'm not saying it is the easiest way to deal with AA, just saying that Luft has ways to deal with AA. Do we have to make every solution to every situation be "1 click her and done"?

Yes, Sherman 76, Hellcat or M10 can destroy F2 but they also require CPs to be built, 2CPs (unless you're Armor doc), so they cost more than the F2. On the other hand the non-CP tanks that allies have (Sherman 75, Cromwell) can F2 destroy rather easily. So if you invest CP into tank and opponent doesn't, you have an advantage over them in tank strength. If they invest CP to have better medium tanks, they have to invest more than you. What is wrong with that?

Sometimes i wonder if this is sarcasm speaking out of it. Mortars later on are rather hard to use. I dont even bother spending tons of res into a mortar HT which 80% of its time has to run/move arround due to enemie pushes/rushes/planes/arty/mortar. The inf mortar is cheap but then again you have to find enemie aa first and often, if they are smart, have at least 2-3 AA units. The games are also very fast so when you need air support, you need it now, and not in 20 seconds when the mortar finally managed to land some smoke shells.


The Tank thing must be sarcasm too. Poopy F2´s and in my opinion all medium tanks should not cost CP´s at all. The F2 can be build elsewhere for 0 CP, allis have sherman for 0 CP and most of these units are very vulnerable to the most basic AT stuff. So having always that CP´s wasted for something like this shit is annoying as fuck and just makes many docs having to spend CP´s in always the same stuff. So get the fuck rid of all basic stuff in the CP trees. Why is only BK so stubborn and narrow minded in this regard?

[tarakancheg]

Small reminder:mortar smoke is 2x range of barrage so you don't have to get close.

[MarKr]

Yes, so spending some MP in base on a mortar team is too much but spend more MP in base on LeiG18 is OK. They both have to move to some location which takes time and LeiG is slower than the mortar team. With both you need to find the AA and both take time to deliver their shells to the target. I don't know what the fire rate is from the top of my head but even if LeiG fired faster, you will save like what? 5 seconds? So when you need air support NOW, you will still get the AA barraged in 15 seconds instead of 20. 15 isn't NOW. Not to mention that one well placed smoke shell makes any AA useless for the duration of the smoke while one hit from LeiG18 might decrew an AA emplacement but most often won't do much against AA vehicles. You would probably need to hit directly with at least 3 shells from the salvo. How often do you manage to do that?

The F2 can be build elsewhere for 0 CP, allis have sherman for 0 CP

We've already explained several times why some units cost different CPs in different docs. You keep ignoring that so I won't be bothered explaining it again.

Poopy F2´s and in my opinion all medium tanks should not cost CP´s at all.
(...)
So having always that CP´s wasted for something like this shit is annoying as fuck and just makes many docs having to spend CP´s in always the same stuff. So get the fuck rid of all basic stuff in the CP trees. Why is only BK so stubborn and narrow minded in this regard?

Yes, we know what your opinion on this is, due to no small part because you don't forget to repeat it every time you get the chance. As I said - we explained this decision but you ignore the reasons given and keep repeating "I believe that..." so literally no OBJECTIVE reason or rebuttal, just your personal preference. On top of that, when things don't go your way, you start swearing around.

So, you keep repeating the same stuff over and over, then get pissed off when it doesn't go your way and this happens every time. Then you come up with something like "will my post be ignored again just because it's me who suggests it?" (I would have to look for the post to quote exactly what you said but you posted something like that some time ago). Do you still wonder why I tend not to reply to your posts?

[Consti255]

It is not a good thing to compare Luft to AB just because they both have planes and some paratrooper squads. These doctrines intentionally have downsides the others don't but they also have strengths that the others don't. So when you say "AB has light howitzer sooner, so Luft should have LeiG available sooner too", I can say that LeiG can also shoot directly and use camo. I could also say that Luft has Panthers but AB has no equivalent tank, and Luft also has 88mm flak for defense but AB has no such thing. We can also say that Luft infantry is stronger and more capable in dealing with enemy infantry alone and so they don't need the LeiG for arty as much as AB needs it.

Is there any other reason for earlier LeiG than "AB has it"?

Given the strength of infantry and defensive capabilities, the "CP hungry" tanks is an intentional downside for Luft. Luft used to have Hetzers but they were removed as they made most other tanks pretty much obsolete. JPIV would be the same.
So 0CP F1, addition of PIV J and JPIV is really just asking for removing the intended downside of this doctrine.

The main reason for this change is:
When playing as Luftwaffe and the enemy lock up the map with AA early in the game Luftwaffe doesn't have any artillery support at all untill you spend a ton of CP, also some of these CP you need for the LeiG are in different branches.
I suggest at least to make the LeiG avialable in the Kampfgruppe Kompanie after the weapon package and Kampfgruppe Kompanie Upgrade.
Talking about PIVJ, It't frustrating having only PIV F2 as medium tank support for infantry taking your doctrine CP unlock into rush a panter (to give some suppoert to the infantry). Sherman 76mm Hellcat and M10 can deal with this PIVJ, this change will make luftwaffe a bit more atractive especially in the mid game.

i would go even further, and remove the 76 from the AB doc and let Luft their F2 CP less and put the Wirbelwind behind CP with free HE.

[MEFISTO]

It is not a good thing to compare Luft to AB just because they both have planes and some paratrooper squads. These doctrines intentionally have downsides the others don't but they also have strengths that the others don't. So when you say "AB has light howitzer sooner, so Luft should have LeiG available sooner too", I can say that LeiG can also shoot directly and use camo. I could also say that Luft has Panthers but AB has no equivalent tank, and Luft also has 88mm flak for defense but AB has no such thing. We can also say that Luft infantry is stronger and more capable in dealing with enemy infantry alone and so they don't need the LeiG for arty as much as AB needs it.

Is there any other reason for earlier LeiG than "AB has it"?

Given the strength of infantry and defensive capabilities, the "CP hungry" tanks is an intentional downside for Luft. Luft used to have Hetzers but they were removed as they made most other tanks pretty much obsolete. JPIV would be the same.
So 0CP F1, addition of PIV J and JPIV is really just asking for removing the intended downside of this doctrine.

The main reason for this change is:
When playing as Luftwaffe and the enemy lock up the map with AA early in the game Luftwaffe doesn't have any artillery support at all untill you spend a ton of CP, also some of these CP you need for the LeiG are in different branches.
I suggest at least to make the LeiG avialable in the Kampfgruppe Kompanie after the weapon package and Kampfgruppe Kompanie Upgrade.
Talking about PIVJ, It't frustrating having only PIV F2 as medium tank support for infantry taking your doctrine CP unlock into rush a panter (to give some suppoert to the infantry). Sherman 76mm Hellcat and M10 can deal with this PIVJ, this change will make luftwaffe a bit more atractive especially in the mid game.

i would go even further, and remove the 76 from the AB doc and let Luft their F2 CP less and put the Wirbelwind behind CP with free HE.

I don’t think removing Sherman 76mm from Airborne is a good idea bro, this is a game and needs to be balanced be attractive for players to play, feel like you have some tools in any stage of the game to respond enemies action (of course depending on your skills, CP unlock, and situation understanding), Sherman 76mm is a good complement for infantry giving support vs enemies HE units o medium tanks.
That is why I don’t understand F2 behind CP when allies have Sherman 75 capable to deal with it, no mention 76mm or hellcat, That is why I am asking for PIV J taking F2 in CP unlock and leave F2 no unlock.

[Consti255]

The main reason for this change is:
When playing as Luftwaffe and the enemy lock up the map with AA early in the game Luftwaffe doesn't have any artillery support at all untill you spend a ton of CP, also some of these CP you need for the LeiG are in different branches.
I suggest at least to make the LeiG avialable in the Kampfgruppe Kompanie after the weapon package and Kampfgruppe Kompanie Upgrade.
Talking about PIVJ, It't frustrating having only PIV F2 as medium tank support for infantry taking your doctrine CP unlock into rush a panter (to give some suppoert to the infantry). Sherman 76mm Hellcat and M10 can deal with this PIVJ, this change will make luftwaffe a bit more atractive especially in the mid game.

i would go even further, and remove the 76 from the AB doc and let Luft their F2 CP less and put the Wirbelwind behind CP with free HE.

I don’t think removing Sherman 76mm from Airborne is a good idea bro, this is a game and needs to be balanced be attractive for players to play, feel like you have some tools in any stage of the game to respond enemies action (of course depending on your skills, CP unlock, and situation understanding), Sherman 76mm is a good complement for infantry giving support vs enemies HE units o medium tanks.
That is why I don’t understand F2 behind CP when allies have Sherman 75 capable to deal with it, no mention 76mm or hellcat, That is why I am asking for PIV J taking F2 in CP unlock and leave F2 no unlock.

I get your point. But in general you have enough tools to support ur units playing AB.
I would rather see it removed in exchange of something more fitting or usefull playing as AB.

I do agree with the CP less F2 aswell.

[MarKr]

I don’t think removing Sherman 76mm from Airborne is a good idea bro, this is a game and needs to be balanced be attractive for players to play, feel like you have some tools in any stage of the game to respond enemies action

Don't worry, he forgot to mention that the Sherman unlock would get replaced by some paradropped AT squad armed to teeth with bazookas...I don't know how effective that would be if they got hit by an HE shot from stubby PIVs, stubby HT, stubby Puma, got kited forever with 37mm HE HT or Wirblewind with pre-installed HE ammo, all of which outranges bazokas. But I don't play so I don't understand...

Anyway, saying that "allies have Sherman 75 capable to deal with F2", it is largely is largely subjective when it comes to what you consider "capable of dealing with". Practically, a 37mm AT is capable of dealing with Kingtigers but the chances are really low.
When it comes to F2 vs 75mm Sherman:
75mm Sherman gun has at max range a little bit under 50% chance to penetrate the F2 and deals 250-450 damage (so 350 on average).
75mm F2 gun has at max range 73% chance to penetrate the Sherman and deals 400-600 damage (so 500 on average - with the higher roll towards 600 you get a better chance to one-shot it).
Both have 636 HP.
F2 can activate AP ammo to get penetration to 97%, Sherman cannot do that.
So if you put these two tanks in 1v1, the F2 has the upper hand.

[MEFISTO]

I don’t think removing Sherman 76mm from Airborne is a good idea bro, this is a game and needs to be balanced be attractive for players to play, feel like you have some tools in any stage of the game to respond enemies action

Don't worry, he forgot to mention that the Sherman unlock would get replaced by some paradropped AT squad armed to teeth with bazookas...I don't know how effective that would be if they got hit by an HE shot from stubby PIVs, stubby HT, stubby Puma, got kited forever with 37mm HE HT or Wirblewind with pre-installed HE ammo, all of which outranges bazokas. But I don't play so I don't understand...

Anyway, saying that "allies have Sherman 75 capable to deal with F2", it is largely is largely subjective when it comes to what you consider "capable of dealing with". Practically, a 37mm AT is capable of dealing with Kingtigers but the chances are really low.
When it comes to F2 vs 75mm Sherman:
75mm Sherman gun has at max range a little bit under 50% chance to penetrate the F2 and deals 250-450 damage (so 350 on average).
75mm F2 gun has at max range 73% chance to penetrate the Sherman and deals 400-600 damage (so 500 on average - with the higher roll towards 600 you get a better chance to one-shot it).
Both have 636 HP.
F2 can activate AP ammo to get penetration to 97%, Sherman cannot do that.
So if you put these two tanks in 1v1, the F2 has the upper hand.

Markr, anyways the LeIG-18 Infantry Gun doesn't worth 6CP, that is an insane amount of CP, I recommend making the LeIG-18 Infantry Gun available in the Logistik Kompanie after the weapon package is unlocked and Logistik Kompanie Upgrade.
About PIV F2 some doctrines don't need any unlock to have it, I really would take those CP and add a PIV J. This doctrine really feels empty in the mid-stage related to the medium tank support. Marder and AT Puma are defensive units that also can easily be wiped out by artillery or strafer.

[Consti255]

I don’t think removing Sherman 76mm from Airborne is a good idea bro, this is a game and needs to be balanced be attractive for players to play, feel like you have some tools in any stage of the game to respond enemies action

Don't worry, he forgot to mention that the Sherman unlock would get replaced by some paradropped AT squad armed to teeth with bazookas...I don't know how effective that would be if they got hit by an HE shot from stubby PIVs, stubby HT, stubby Puma, got kited forever with 37mm HE HT or Wirblewind with pre-installed HE ammo, all of which outranges bazokas. But I don't play so I don't understand...

Anyway, saying that "allies have Sherman 75 capable to deal with F2", it is largely is largely subjective when it comes to what you consider "capable of dealing with". Practically, a 37mm AT is capable of dealing with Kingtigers but the chances are really low.
When it comes to F2 vs 75mm Sherman:
75mm Sherman gun has at max range a little bit under 50% chance to penetrate the F2 and deals 250-450 damage (so 350 on average).
75mm F2 gun has at max range 73% chance to penetrate the Sherman and deals 400-600 damage (so 500 on average - with the higher roll towards 600 you get a better chance to one-shot it).
Both have 636 HP.
F2 can activate AP ammo to get penetration to 97%, Sherman cannot do that.
So if you put these two tanks in 1v1, the F2 has the upper hand.

You still have the M10 and Hellcat, smoke for your bazooka rushes etc.
AB doesnt need the access to more 76mm guns... There are plenty of it.
Seriously, i never see the 76 unlocked in this doc.
"armed to the teeth"? They have 2 Bazookas and 1 RL. Basicly what every 101st has once the 82. gets unlocked. They are also limited by one at a time.

Rather they become the next SAS sqaud, nor beeing less used (i supposed) than the current 76 sherman.

[Warhawks97]

Thx to our genius unlock system we have, i basically always go for 76 sherman unlock+ off maps. Its always the best way to go regardless of the doctrine i pick as US. M10 and hellcat also cost CP so....

As Luftwaffe (which i play rarely btw) i usually go just for Wirbelwind+Puma Pak vehicle+ airstrikes.

I think we should make a deal: Remove CP from F2 and leig 18 so that you can go for actual doctrinal stuff. In return Wirbelwind as being a very doctrine specific and also powerfull unit becomes a CP unlock.

[Krieger Blitzer]

Seriously, i never see the 76 unlocked in this doc.
"armed to the teeth"? They have 2 Bazookas and 1 RL. Basicly what every 101st has once the 82. gets unlocked. They are also limited by one at a time.

Rather they become the next SAS sqaud, nor beeing less used (i supposed) than the current 76 sherman.

Where do you come up with 76 Sherman never gets used in AB doc???

As a very recent example everyone can see.. in my 1vs1 with kwok, it's actually the 76 Shermans that allowed me to finish the game.. they led me to victory.
So, i am not sure how u think 76 Sherman is useless in AB doc...

And did somebody suggest a dedicated AB squad / dedicated AT team? If so, i would disagree with that.


Wirblewind isn't powerful enough to become an unlock.. that's like asking to make Crusader or Quad AA HT to become an unlock.

[Warhawks97]

Wirblewind isn't powerful enough to become an unlock.. that's like asking to make Crusader or Quad AA HT to become an unlock.

Wirbel is stronger than crusader by a mile. Instant suppression and kills a squad in seconds. But anyway, i would like to have the crusader have an AP/HE switch and being unlocked in a doctrine.

[Krieger Blitzer]

Wirble reloads very often.. which makes it semi reliable.
Also, the Allied inf are better at negating suppression.. given how most Allied inf have fire-up sprint abilities or smoke (such as Commandos) whereas Axis inf don't.