BK doc storms unlock tree.

[Consti255]

so a question, would it be if max upgraded a 2x Kar98 and 4x G43s ? Or 2x STGs and 4x G43s ?

[Krieger Blitzer]

Their default load-out is 1xSTG, and 5xKars... With 4x G43 upgrades replacing 4 Kars, the remaining Kar could be replaced by the Shreck upgrade (so the Shreck upgrade would be purchasable at all times).
I know Walder said that G43 upgrade would lock Shreck upgrade but that's unnecessary.

[Walderschmidt]

Default Loadout: Regular Storm Trooper Squad

A:
1x STG, 5x K98k, upgrades to 4x G43 (1x STG, 4x G43, 1x K98k)

B:
1x G43, 5x K98, upgrades to 4x G43 (1x K98k, 5x G43)

Either work for me. The Panzershreck disappearing was a concession I was willing to make. Maybe we could trade the Panzershrek for an LMG34?

But really I just want to focus on a longer ranges storm squad and tweak as needed.

Wald

[Consti255]

Default Loadout: Regular Storm Trooper Squad

A:
1x STG, 5x K98k, upgrades to 4x G43 (1x STG, 4x G43, 1x K98k)

B:
1x G43, 5x K98, upgrades to 4x G43 (1x K98k, 5x G43)

Either work for me. The Panzershreck disappearing was a concession I was willing to make. Maybe we could trade the Panzershrek for an LMG34?

But really I just want to focus on a longer ranges storm squad and tweak as needed.

Wald

i would go for B + the MG34 as a shrek replacement.

Beta it, and tweak if needed.

[Walderschmidt]

Default Loadout: Regular Storm Trooper Squad

A:
1x STG, 5x K98k, upgrades to 4x G43 (1x STG, 4x G43, 1x K98k)

B:
1x G43, 5x K98, upgrades to 4x G43 (1x K98k, 5x G43)

Either work for me. The Panzershreck disappearing was a concession I was willing to make. Maybe we could trade the Panzershrek for an LMG34?

But really I just want to focus on a longer ranges storm squad and tweak as needed.

Wald

i would go for B + the MG34 as a shrek replacement.

Beta it, and tweak if needed.

I could live with that.

Wald

[F31.58]

1x STG 5x kars - is already powerful early game combination, making the infantry capable doing of everything considering its HP

[Consti255]

how about making them only dropable from the storm HT ? Like the infiltration ranger sqaud? But just as a long range unit?

[Warhawks97]

When we look at this doc, do we really need longe stormtrooper squads? Isnt the suppression squad enough?

That doc has all sorts of long range anti inf stuff like Pumas, HE tanks, Tanks with top mounted MG´s and so on.

So i just want to remind you what this means: A 95 HP squad with buffs, potent leader squad, able to crawl and to ambush equiped with G43 (simply the best Rifle out there, esspecially at mid Range) and even an LMG34. Like for real: Why? I mean when there is such a big need for a long range Storm squad, i would rather go with a cost decrease for the suppression squad to 425 MP or so. But i really dont see a big need for this addition to this doc. So far i am doing fine with the UAS and their loadout as well as with the suppression squad and its default loadout.

[Consti255]

We can Beta it, i suppose. And also i would lock this sqaud behind the Stormtroop HT.

What could also work, is a decision. Same like the PS doc Tank or TH route, between the suppression sqaud (more firepower, less HP and sqaud members) and the Long range Storm sqaud (better range, less firepower but more men).
So what this means is that if you got one fielded, the other one is unable to spawn from buildings or the HT.

Maybe even make it a reward unit.

[tarakancheg]

When we look at this doc, do we really need longe stormtrooper squads? Isnt the suppression squad enough?

That doc has all sorts of long range anti inf stuff like Pumas, HE tanks, Tanks with top mounted MG´s and so on.

So i just want to remind you what this means: A 95 HP squad with buffs, potent leader squad, able to crawl and to ambush equiped with G43 (simply the best Rifle out there, esspecially at mid Range) and even an LMG34. Like for real: Why? I mean when there is such a big need for a long range Storm squad, i would rather go with a cost decrease for the suppression squad to 425 MP or so. But i really dont see a big need for this addition to this doc. So far i am doing fine with the UAS and their loadout as well as with the suppression squad and its default loadout.

We can make it so long range storms lose their crawl and keep camo in cover because they dont really need crawl if they are a long range squad anymore. There is just no point in getting storms over UAS in any situation because they end up as same squads when fully upgraded. So why not make it a different squad with less survivability but more long range capabilities over UAS? I think we should give it a try at least.

[Walderschmidt]

1. I agree the demo squad should have MP40s like the infiltration squad in SE.

2. Let’s BETA test the Storms where “long range squad” has 2 upgrades of 2xG43s for 50 muni per package.

Getting first G43 package blocks the Panzershreck upgrade.

Wald

Let’s keep with this original suggestion that a lot of people liked.

Wald

[Consti255]

to be honest, i really wanna see how a crawling long range sqaud wouldve impact the game.

[Warhawks97]

When we look at this doc, do we really need longe stormtrooper squads? Isnt the suppression squad enough?

That doc has all sorts of long range anti inf stuff like Pumas, HE tanks, Tanks with top mounted MG´s and so on.

So i just want to remind you what this means: A 95 HP squad with buffs, potent leader squad, able to crawl and to ambush equiped with G43 (simply the best Rifle out there, esspecially at mid Range) and even an LMG34. Like for real: Why? I mean when there is such a big need for a long range Storm squad, i would rather go with a cost decrease for the suppression squad to 425 MP or so. But i really dont see a big need for this addition to this doc. So far i am doing fine with the UAS and their loadout as well as with the suppression squad and its default loadout.

We can make it so long range storms lose their crawl and keep camo in cover because they dont really need crawl if they are a long range squad anymore. There is just no point in getting storms over UAS in any situation because they end up as same squads when fully upgraded. So why not make it a different squad with less survivability but more long range capabilities over UAS? I think we should give it a try at least.

Originally there was the idea that storms will simply get the current UAS loadout since, as you said, the current situation makes no sense. People didnt want to lose the LMG34 option on the regular storms. But since it got removed there is no reason to keep two different squads. As for the long range option the suppression squad got 5 men and a bit cheaper now to compensate the loss of the lmg34 and to make this squad viable. Now people want G43 and LMG34 and thus making the suppression squad quite useless as long as you got the ammo to upgrade them.

to be honest, i really wanna see how a crawling long range sqaud wouldve impact the game.

it does makes sense. I even use crawl on the leader and suppression squad when they have just rifles and LMG´s. In fact i used to crawl with them more often that i used it with stg equiped units. Usually i used to assault with stg squads which i also upgraded with schrecks for maximum effect against emplacments (esspecially in combo with assault ability that turns schreck into a fast shooting weapon). Meanwhile bringing the leader and lmg equiped units (without schrecks) into position and pop up to shoot at anything that is left or to destroy the enemies infantry counter attack. I used crawl most of the time only for the squads with rifles and lmgs and less often on stg squads.

[Walderschmidt]

Let’s all calm down and see what Storm Trooper Squad with G43s and nothing else (no shrek or LMG34) does in a beta.

Wald

[tarakancheg]

Let’s all calm down and see what Storm Trooper Squad with G43s and nothing else (no shrek or LMG34) does in a beta.

Wald

Agreed

[tarakancheg]

When we look at this doc, do we really need longe stormtrooper squads? Isnt the suppression squad enough?

That doc has all sorts of long range anti inf stuff like Pumas, HE tanks, Tanks with top mounted MG´s and so on.

So i just want to remind you what this means: A 95 HP squad with buffs, potent leader squad, able to crawl and to ambush equiped with G43 (simply the best Rifle out there, esspecially at mid Range) and even an LMG34. Like for real: Why? I mean when there is such a big need for a long range Storm squad, i would rather go with a cost decrease for the suppression squad to 425 MP or so. But i really dont see a big need for this addition to this doc. So far i am doing fine with the UAS and their loadout as well as with the suppression squad and its default loadout.

We can make it so long range storms lose their crawl and keep camo in cover because they dont really need crawl if they are a long range squad anymore. There is just no point in getting storms over UAS in any situation because they end up as same squads when fully upgraded. So why not make it a different squad with less survivability but more long range capabilities over UAS? I think we should give it a try at least.

Originally there was the idea that storms will simply get the current UAS loadout since, as you said, the current situation makes no sense. People didnt want to lose the LMG34 option on the regular storms. But since it got removed there is no reason to keep two different squads. As for the long range option the suppression squad got 5 men and a bit cheaper now to compensate the loss of the lmg34 and to make this squad viable. Now people want G43 and LMG34 and thus making the suppression squad quite useless as long as you got the ammo to upgrade them.

to be honest, i really wanna see how a crawling long range sqaud wouldve impact the game.

it does makes sense. I even use crawl on the leader and suppression squad when they have just rifles and LMG´s. In fact i used to crawl with them more often that i used it with stg equiped units. Usually i used to assault with stg squads which i also upgraded with schrecks for maximum effect against emplacments (esspecially in combo with assault ability that turns schreck into a fast shooting weapon). Meanwhile bringing the leader and lmg equiped units (without schrecks) into position and pop up to shoot at anything that is left or to destroy the enemies infantry counter attack. I used crawl most of the time only for the squads with rifles and lmgs and less often on stg squads.

For a long range squad crawl is just an "instant disengage" tool to crawl out of vision and retreat

[crazyace96]

what if the regular long range storm squad also gets access to rifle grenades as an upgrade option replacing the panzerschrak?

[Walderschmidt]

what if the regular long range storm squad also gets access to rifle grenades as an upgrade option replacing the panzerschrak?

Let's do one thing at a time.

Otherwise the devs will be unsure how to continue and may do nothing.

Wald

[MEFISTO]

Let’s all calm down and see what Storm Trooper Squad with G43s and nothing else (no Shrek or LMG34) does in a beta.

Wald

Against to reduce BK doctrine AT capabilities, after the panther got NERF bk doctrine needs all Shrek their elite infantry can upgrade.

[MarKr]

My take on this is that if you want to keep them "long range" you're really better off sticking with their Kar98 as it has far superior accuracy at long ranges when compared to G43. G43 starts getting better than Kar98 somewhere around mid-range where it gets solid accuracy and beats Kar98 thanks to higher RoF, but then again, at mid-range you're better off with StG44 because it is not as accurate as G43 but has much better RoF. The original idea behind the same upgrades for urban and "long range" squads was that StG for Urban squad is improvement in firepower in general, while for the "long range" squad it is more of a role shift from "long range fire squad" to an "assault squad" in case you no longer need the long range squad or if your urban squad gets wiped and you need to quickly get a replacement to keep fighting. Just because a squad has some weapon upgrades, it doesn't mean you just absolutely MUST get them every time.

Well anyway, since people want to try it out and it is a quick change we'll try swapping the StG44 for G43 for the beta.
LMG for the "long range" squad is an absolute no-go as it would just once more make the suppression squad obsolete.

[Consti255]

My take on this is that if you want to keep them "long range" you're really better off sticking with their Kar98 as it has far superior accuracy at long ranges when compared to G43. G43 starts getting better than Kar98 somewhere around mid-range where it gets solid accuracy and beats Kar98 thanks to higher RoF, but then again, at mid-range you're better off with StG44 because it is not as accurate as G43 but has much better RoF. The original idea behind the same upgrades for urban and "long range" squads was that StG for Urban squad is improvement in firepower in general, while for the "long range" squad it is more of a role shift from "long range fire squad" to an "assault squad" in case you no longer need the long range squad or if your urban squad gets wiped and you need to quickly get a replacement to keep fighting. Just because a squad has some weapon upgrades, it doesn't mean you just absolutely MUST get them every time.

Well anyway, since people want to try it out and it is a quick change we'll try swapping the StG44 for G43 for the beta.
LMG for the "long range" squad is an absolute no-go as it would just once more make the suppression squad obsolete.

True yes, but most of the time allies want to get in close. They want as close as possible when its a garand vs Kar98 fight a Thompson vs anything and so on. So you most likely get one volley out of the Kar 98s where they are better and than the better RoF of the G43 is most of the times better.

I can see why you dont want to give them the Mg34s and why it does make them obsolete, thats why i went with my unpopular opinion of even remove the suppression sqaud or make them a reward unit. (Supression or long range sqaud) both out of the HT.
But right now, the Storms as they are just wired compared to the UAS and most of the times not worth to get, that why people want to try out the change i suppose.

[MarKr]

Having every storms squad running around with a LMG has a good potential to get out of hand when you realize how many buffs you can stack on Storms from Vet, commander squad, StuG buff, Blitz buff and I think some other sources that forgot to mention. So one squad with double LMG is more balanced than several squads each with their own LMG.
And before anyone starts with "allies often have LMGs in squads" - yes, but axis LMGs are superior to allies ones. Not an opinion/feeling, pure fact.

[Krieger Blitzer]

Well anyway, since people want to try it out and it is a quick change we'll try swapping the StG44 for G43 for the beta.
LMG for the "long range" squad is an absolute no-go as it would just once more make the suppression squad obsolete.

Down for the G43 swapping STG on Regular Storms.. & Shreck upgrade stays.
Good start...

Could we have the Demo Storm squad default load-out changed to MP40s as well ??

[Walderschmidt]

Could we have the Demo Storm squad default load-out changed to MP40s as well ??

Yes, this too.

Wald

[Consti255]

Having every storms squad running around with a LMG has a good potential to get out of hand when you realize how many buffs you can stack on Storms from Vet, commander squad, StuG buff, Blitz buff and I think some other sources that forgot to mention. So one squad with double LMG is more balanced than several squads each with their own LMG.
And before anyone starts with "allies often have LMGs in squads" - yes, but axis LMGs are superior to allies ones. Not an opinion/feeling, pure fact.

You can limited them to 1- 2 sqauds at a time.
So you still have the same MG count.