Make the Sturmtiger more than a meme unit

[Warhawks97]

ehm, in order to fire you need to get relatively close. It actually had just a slightly higher range than a stuh had. I have not the actual data for corsix at hand.


But aside of that you can use its sturmtiger armor, drive up close to trigger AT guns and then blast them. Thats what many do and thats what i also do. But the fact alone that you have a KT armor on the field for relatively little ressources is already a huge gain. No fancy infantry reinforcment nearby. Also infantry automatically gain cover bonuses when being near tanks. So you can move this unit up with your inf and immediately fire from a short distance your bad ass rocket against whatever opposition pisses you off.

So it does its job already without adding more fancy stuff. I did not say it must be a backline unit. Its just good enough in assaulting without becoming Dota 2.

[Redgaarden]

Making it reinforce units on the frontline actually makes it pretty fun/viable. But if it costs 100 munitions with only 90 sec cooldown I would say it's to strong if it one shots tanks. I would say to keep it as a anti emplacement unit.
So It's a beefed up stupa? While still costing less than a Stupa?

[Consti255]

Maybe 125 ammo ?
so the cd and other buffs gets hold back by the ammo costs.
I mean even 100 is a big word compared to the no ammo costs for StuH and StuPa

[tarakancheg]

"Assault" ability for volks?
Fear aura that debuffs enemy infantry?
Mark target?

[Consti255]

i dont like the assault ability tbh. It buggs and also isnt as impactful as a satchel or anything else.

[Warhawks97]

I think when its cooldown gets lowered and cost per shot reduced to 125 per shot as well as having a stun effect on infantry and everything caught in blast but not killed, things will be pretty good.

If it would be possible to add a reload ability it would be even cooler. But pls, not inf reinforcments or anything alike. Just let this unit do what it is designed to. Not more.

Also perhaps reduce its weapon range to like 100 but in return can fire even into fog of war.

[Consti255]

i like the idea of reinforce Inf.
Makes it a creaping assault tank with a high prio to take out.

[Warhawks97]

This unit is not a "creeping assault unit". It comes forward, faces his big ass rocket mortar at whatever it wishes to be dead while soaking up and kind of fire that comes for it, fires the big ass rocket and goes back to reload. Its not a "creeping assault infantry support unit" like a churchill was meant to do. What you are looking for are so called infantry tanks based on the idea of ww1 trenchwarefare where tanks slowly creep over barbed wire etc and supporting the infantry. The Sturmtiger is far away from any kind of such concept. It comes in, makes a big boom and gets back to reload. The armor is needed so that it can face any gunfire coming from the enemies defensive positions.

Having "Sturm" in its name (meaning basically Sturm or a "Storm like aassault") is very much the opposite of "lets creep slowly forward". Its there to punch holes quickly. And unlike stuh or stupa you dont have to worry running into hidden AT guns. You can move wherever you want, see a target, shoot it and get back. Thats why it has its armor.

So pls, just lower cooldown (which for me is basically the only thing that makes me not using it) and lower cost to perhaps 125 ammo and we will be fine.

[Krieger Blitzer]

I can't see how adding inf reinforce ability would be anything bad... All the Churchills can do that and they are moving bunkers too, plus they can fire.

ST is also on a different path from Tigers.. so i see no issues with ST combined by VolksStrum inf.

[Diablo]

@Warhawks Using alleged tactics of the unit as an argument doesn't work in a gameplay driven, highly limited game per se. And especially not since the Sturmtiger wasn't a very useful design anyways. If it were to be displayed in historical accuracy, we should increase MP price, activation cost and reload time further -- to resemble the strategic flop the Sturmtiger idea really was.
It's such an absurd construction that it can almost be considered part of the Wunderwaffe projects.

In the end, gameplay matters. CoH really is just a far cry of a WW2 simulation. The real life units with all their variants, equipment, historical names and so on are ultimately just skins for a baseline of general strategy game units.
Kettenkrad taking sectors, halftracks reinforcing infantry, some command tanks buffs, the neatly organized different classes of british commandos, the way Pumas and Ostwinds are used. You get what I'm trying to say here.
Sure, let's keep it a little gritty, not throwing colorful, magical abilities around like in WoW. Let's also keep a general sense of unit role, but not because in '42 the manual said X. Unit role is important to create an intuitive and beginner friendly game. You should have a general idea what a unit is capable of, judging by it's appearance.

So in short, I'd love the Sturmtiger to be both a bit more viable (competitiveness; how often is it used?) and more gameplay integrated (fun; what novel or interesting mechanic does it offer?).

Cheers and sorry for the tl;dr

[Warhawks97]

I can't see how adding inf reinforce ability would be anything bad... All the Churchills can do that and they are moving bunkers too, plus they can fire.

ST is also on a different path from Tigers.. so i see no issues with ST combined by VolksStrum inf.

I dont like the general idea of tanks that can also reinforce inf nearby. I mean i am fine when inf boost friendly units by buffing their combat power (morel boost) or lowering those of enemies similiar as the Tiger does. Or when they provide suppression resistance etc. But reinforcing inf is clearly not the point of a tank. There are FHQ´s, medic HT´s normal HTs etc that do the job and every self proclaiming Terror pro player has at least one Halftrack an officer somewhere to reinforce troops. Driving arround with literally an Battleship like armored Infantry supply ship is just absurd.
Its not rare that the appearance of certain units provided a moral boost or penalty to friends/foes. So we have a lot of stuff we can grab on. This unit would for sure boost the moral of friendly troops (esspecially greenhorns) while making all enemies that look at it shaking in fear. Its afterall called Propaganda doctrine and not zombie doctrine.

And this thing is basically already Tank and artillery in one piece. Thats enough.

Churchills are also a bad comparission. They cost more in general and have a lot more threats to fear than a sturmtiger and often sacrafice firepower. But even there i would prefer that these tanks, when working together with inf, would boost each other and become more combat effective rather than being infantry reinforce units. Infantry reinforcing should only be the task of logistical/supply/medical vehicles that basically only exist to perform this task. There is no need having tanks filling the role of a logistical support asset.



The only reason that keeps me from using it is the long reload essentially. Like 5 minutes or what? thats a bad joke.


@Diablo: You dont need to tell me stuff about what makes sense in a game and reality. To me its just a bad for the gameplay when we have some sort of Land Battleship that reinforces units nearby. There are special vehicles like halftrack which ever sane infantry player should have on the field perhaps even following the tanks to have fresh infantry supplies at the front.

And even tactical fail units can be usefull in games even without adding magic to it. Moral boost for friendly units or penalties for enemies that change their combat performance, stunning effect on enemie units caught by the blast, widespread suppression of enemie units etc.

Essentially this unit could provide less suppression to all nearby inf which in my opinion would be more usefull than reinforce units when those are suppressed anyways, buffing combat stats of friendly inf and demoralize enemie infantry and weapon crews while suppressing units in a wide area arround the blast and stunning them. THIS would actually make this unit a "sturm unit". Otherwise inf may get reinforced but the unsppressed enemie MG will pn them all anways... so...



I dont get why people always come up with the most unfitting ideas for a unit while there could be a ton of stuff added that would be more fitting and unique. Its that typical "lets add random shit to a unit so that people use it" syndrom that seems to spread further and further. TbH i wouldnt use it more often than i already do just because it can reinforce units. The cooldown is the biggest reason i stay away from it.

[H.Drescher]

I dont get why people always come up with the most unfitting ideas for a unit while there could be a ton of stuff added that would be more fitting and unique. Its that typical "lets add random shit to a unit so that people use it" syndrom that seems to spread further and further. TbH i wouldnt use it more often than i already do just because it can reinforce units. The cooldown is the biggest reason i stay away from it.

It's a mixing bowl thread to see what ideas are there, refine, process, refine, ETC, and see what makes the cut.

The current state of the Sturmtiger is underwhelming and fills no niche for propaganda/terror doctrine that isn't already filled. People clearly don't find this unit fun or interesting.

As a result, this is an incredibly underpicked unit compared to the walking stuka halftrack. A vehicle that does the Sturmtiger's job cheaper and more effectively in everyway. The economic changes proposed (time of ability and cost to fire) will let this vehicle see more light too without changing the status quo.

A lot of the proposed changes from mark target and auras though may address the weakness that propaganda doctrine's volks has in the mid and late game. Fighting enemies at medium and long range. A reason why people may transition to armored vehicle preferences in the mid and late game.

[Walderschmidt]

A mark target and/or suppression ability would be handy.

Wald

[Warhawks97]

A mark target and/or suppression ability would be handy.

Wald

it doesnt have have a top mounted MG. Or speaking about Tiger shock?

And Mark Target? Not for this one.

[Walderschmidt]

A mark target and/or suppression ability would be handy.

Wald

it doesnt have have a top mounted MG. Or speaking about Tiger shock?

And Mark Target? Not for this one.

Why not?

Just because you say so or don’t like it?

Wald

[Warhawks97]

A mark target and/or suppression ability would be handy.

Wald

it doesnt have have a top mounted MG. Or speaking about Tiger shock?

And Mark Target? Not for this one.

Why not?

Just because you say so or don’t like it?

Wald

Because i provided stuff that made a lot more sense for a unit like this one. Also i think what weaknesses would this unit have? Arty and planes only? I think if this unit gets too close to infantry, it should be punished. Using this unit would become a no-brainer. Its armor defeats any AT gun and its instant infantry pin down button makes any infantry attack fruitless. If someone manages to move infantry close to it or even arround it, it should be punished.

Mark target ability should only be an ability for recon and command units. How does mark target fit to this kind of tank... like for real now. Dont you guys have any sense of what role which unit plays in strategy games? Or has anyone ever played any sort of RTS games where you have to create a unit or hero unit? Or even a RPG game? Usually you would focus down on one aspect and skill one tree in order to be most effective there. You usually wont create some sort of super character/hero that can somehow do everything but isnt really good in anything due to lack of skill points to develop all trees. So you either end up to have many low developed skill trees or, in case everything is maxed out, costs you a lot (speaking about recruiting cost, mana/energy cost, ability usage cost etc).


When i was like 14 years old or so i had a strategy game that allowed me to create my own hero units. I made them so powerfull that they could blast and fight entire enemie armies with lots of completely OP abilities. The result was that they cost easily as much as 3-4 times the ammount of standard heroes and required high lvls to even unlock their abilities. I could barely field them due to the cost preventing me to get anything else. Later i changed it so that they become pretty cheap but highly specialized and it turned out that they were a lot more effective since i could use them early on hence leveling them earlier and giving me an advantage early on.

If we add a powerfull rocket mortar shot with low cost and cooldown, big as blast, the ability to mark targets (pretty much the strongest ability along with ambush in BK) and instant suppression button to it as well, what would the cost be at the end?
Other option would be to keep the main weapon as it is with high cost and long cooldown and medicore effect. Then we add abilities to it which other units can provide already (nearby infanty reinforcment for example). The unit would cost a bit less but still expensive due to its multitude of roles it can fill but isnt really the first option to fill any of these roles.

I would just add some sort of passive combat buffs to nearby inf like less received suppression etc and some sort of combat penalty to enemie infantry and other units nearby.

On top of that the cooldown per usage goes down by a bit while adding suppression, pin down and stun effects to targets caught in the blast and which are not outright dead.

I just wouldnt add too many powerfull active abilities to it like inf reinforcments and suppression buttons to this rolling land-battleship. Just improve the one active ability it has and add some slight passive elements to it.

[Krieger Blitzer]

i hope some ST improvement isn't forgotten.

[MarKr]

Coming back to this. What was the intention behind the "manual reload" idea? Why is it preffered over the standard ability cooldown? Or was a counterbalance to some other suggested change?

[Krieger Blitzer]

Coming back to this. What was the intention behind the "manual reload" idea? Why is it preffered over the standard ability cooldown? Or was a counterbalance to some other suggested change?

I don't think it's preferred.

I would go with the standard ability cool-down.. but time reduced to 90s, and price decreased to a 100 ammo.

Then maybe some abilities added such as inf reinforce, self repair, smoke & tank-shock.

Call-in price could be up to 900 MP or even a 1000 MP also.

[Warhawks97]

Coming back to this. What was the intention behind the "manual reload" idea? Why is it preffered over the standard ability cooldown? Or was a counterbalance to some other suggested change?

having perhaps a faster reload but trading that for a time of vulnerability.

Right now Sturmtiger gets used as a bait and to trigger AT guns. Reducing the reload time would make this unit super potent as sponge but also damage dealer.

So this way a player could use it as a sponge and fire a shot but after that would have to decide whether he keeps it at the frontline as sponge or retreats in order to reload. Or he can just use it as arty. Staying in the backline, fire, retreat a bit, reload, move up, fire and repeat.

But both, damage sponge and short cooldown would be too powerfull.

Also no further abilities are needed that would drive the cost up for no reason or which would make it too OP. No tank shock since flanking inf should be a weakness since it doesnt have many natural enemies anyways. And tanks should also not reinforce inf nearby at all.

[Consti255]

I really like the Idea of a manual reload and a shorter cooldown comeing with it.
Also, i would like a slight cost decrease. SInce it is insanely high in a already really ammo hungry doctrine.

[Krieger Blitzer]

Also, i would like a slight cost decrease. SInce it is insanely high in a already really ammo hungry doctrine.

It costs 700 MP at the moment, and no Ammo upkeep.
How is that insanely high?

@Hawks
No tank-shock because inf is its only weakness??
The tank doesn't have an auto cannon.. so how is inf the only weakness??

Also, there are tanks already in the game that provide inf reinforce.. while this might be "unrealistic" yet it fits the game-play just well enough. And btw; remember ST armor was nerfed, it's currently not as strong as u think...

I definitely would like to see some abilities added to this unit.

[Warhawks97]

Also, i would like a slight cost decrease. SInce it is insanely high in a already really ammo hungry doctrine.

It costs 700 MP at the moment, and no Ammo upkeep.
How is that insanely high?

@Hawks
No tank-shock because inf is its only weakness??
The tank doesn't have an auto cannon.. so how is inf the only weakness??

Also, there are tanks already in the game that provide inf reinforce.. while this might be "unrealistic" yet it fits the game-play just well enough. And btw, remember ST armor was nerfed, it's currently not as strong as u think...

I definitely would like to see some abilities added to this unit.

Its armor bounces most stuff. I mean i saw that thing trolling arround under fire of several AT guns while driving down the hedgerows in order the create flat terrain. So adding inf shock is like an "auto nope button" for this unit since it doesnt care much from what comes frontally at it. Otherwise people will just go arty/planes only to kill it since any attempt to get it with inf will fail.

Also it creates a super big no brainer moment where you just drive into the enemie lines, press "auto suppress everything arround me" button and the entire enemie frontline collapses. No, thanks, we dont need this for this unit.



Also i would like to see all inf reinforcment abilties from tanks being removed. If you want to keep your inf replenished and staying with your tanks, go get a halftrack or something. Thats how inf rides into battle with tanks. Units have their purposes and reinforcing inf nearby is clearly not a task for any tank. Not a Tiger and not even for a churchill. Even less for a nuke Tank.

Big Boom and thick armor for no fuel is already good enough.

[Krieger Blitzer]

Tank-shock wouldn't be available except at vet2, inf reifnorce could be at vet1, self repair at vet3, etc.
You can lock abilities behind veterancy.

Also, the idea of inf reinforce for tanks comes from soldiers embarking the back of the tanks.. but since this isn't possible in CoH1 (or has issues to implement) the inf reinforce for tanks was introduced instead. So, i wouldn't say that it's not a task for tanks.

[Warhawks97]

Tank-shock wouldn't be available except at vet2, inf reifnorce could be at vet1, self repair at vet3, etc.
You can lock abilities behind veterancy.

Also, the idea of inf reinforce for tanks comes from soldiers embarking the back of the tanks.. but since this isn't possible in CoH1 (or has issues to implement) the inf reinforce for tanks was introduced instead. So, i wouldn't say that it's not a task for tanks.

well, the russians literally ride into combat sitting on tanks due to lack of HT´s. But so far no other did it, at least not during an actual attack mission. There they used Halftracks.

But gameplaywise i find i very silly to have tanks with all their power having also the power to reinforce units. Like for real, a HT doesnt really cost too much, esspecially when you consider how cheap Vsturms are.


There is simply no need for more abilities, gadgets, toys and other stuff for this unit. It has one duty or job to do, everything else only drives up the cost, regardless of vet. Vet increases units combat stats and adds combat abilities or improves them. How is in reinforcment a combat trait of this unit? Having a tank shock at a certain lvl is to some degree understandable, perhaps.