The Elephant problem

[Consti255]

I was comeing up with a better idea for SE or the general Elephant.
As the poll will tell, i am interested how many people actively play SE for the elephant and how much impact this unit in general (no matter which doc) has. I feel like there is no scenario that you gonna need this kind of unit in the game in general.
Its a heavy TD that got a big ass gun, while beeing slow and without a moveable turret. It just gets immobilized and killed by infantry.

I feel like it doesnt add anything to the game except frustration and ressource waste.I know people can do what ever with their ressources but tbis unit is actually just one example of beeing in the game "because we have the model".

What could be done:
honestly, i personally think that the elephant could just flat out removed from the game and his spot could be taken by a Jagdpanther.
So SE could get access to the Nashorn or JP as a reward unit.

How to balance:
Since the JP is a relatively strong unit with all its abilitys, he should be tuned down for SE, and also locked behind 1 CP more.
The CP could come from the boobytrap unlock which could get flatout cheaper.

As for abilitys, the JP just gets AP, ambush and smoke. So the elite JP with better crew and abilitys should be only available in PS doc.

[MEFISTO]

Elephant is a expensive unit and focus on defenses, I don’t really like to see another super expensive unit in Panzer Support doctrine. Elephant should stay in SE or go back to defensive doctrine.
If you move Elephant to Panzer Support I don’t think someone is going to use it since it’s too slow for this doctrine plus too expensive and easy to immobilize.
And no I don’t want The elephant to be removed from the mod, either make it a call in with no fuel cost and 1500mp, or reduce even more it’s price and nerf the front armor a bit vs 90mm and 17 pounder. Price then could be 1100mp and 120 fuel considering elephant is a slow tank easy to immobilize or an easy target to airstrike due to mobility speed.

[Sukin-kot (SVT)]

I think it was a good fit in def doc, never understood why it got removed. Also, it was OK as a call-in unit, but building it for 150 fuel is hilarious.

[MEFISTO]

I think it was a good fit in def doc, never understood why it got removed. Also, it was OK as a call-in unit, but building it for 150 fuel is hilarious.

100% agree, too expensive, too slow (that is ok), easy to immobilize.
No a worth unit after that price change.

[Warhawks97]

I didnt use it often at all and not in SE doc. There Nashorn is much better.

The only place i can see it is perhaps as a reward unit for the Jagdtiger in TS doc. But i cant think of any other place. Def doc maybe, but there i would also probably get Nashorn over the Elephant. So idk really.

[MEFISTO]

I didnt use it often at all and not in SE doc. There Nashorn is much better.

The only place i can see it is perhaps as a reward unit for the Jagdtiger in TS doc. But i cant think of any other place. Def doc maybe, but there i would also probably get Nashorn over the Elephant. So idk really.

That is why I never understood when Elephant got moved to SE and Nashorn to Defensive doctrine when defensive have a lot AT capabilities already and SE strangle with an expensive Elephant. That is why Elephant should come back to Defensive as a call in (no fuel cost) or as I said lower price but front armor nerf vs 90mm and 17pounder.

[Warhawks97]

Jagdpanther in SE doc is btw a big no from my side. Just saying.
Wherever Elephant goes, it should maintain fuel cost. High MP cost, esspecially in PE, is a greater burden than paying the fuel for it.

[Consti255]

I think it doesnt add anything to the whole game.
You dont need it in Def, SE nor PS doc.
Like seriously, this unit is just a meme in the game as it was in real life.
I think it could just removed from the game and replaced in SE by Nashorns/JPs
And if not, just make space for a reasonable unit in the CP tree. After the Nashorn reward addition, you not gonna see it again.

But why it is a JP which is limited to 1 a big no?
it gets penetrated by 17pounders, 90mm and also 76mm guns quite frequently.

Either you go for more nashorns, or just one tuned down JP.
Compared with def doc, SE isnt more offensive while also lacking heavy defensives like the 88 or pak43. The JP is aswell just a turretless gun which can also get immobilzed quite easy, but just with the fact it has somehow a chance to escape arty strike.

[Redgaarden]

It's the only AT gun you get in the doc. The only other at gun you get is hetzer and that is a regular 75mm. It's good to have elephant for Pershings.

[Consti255]

It's the only AT gun you get in the doc. The only other at gun you get is hetzer and that is a regular 75mm. It's good to have elephant for Pershings.

You have the Nashorn as reward unit aswell.
So i dont see any problem with it. You also have the Hetzer HEAT round.

As i my suggestion, i would also like to introduce the JP to SE as a 1 limited reward unit for the Nashron.
But with tuned down abilitys.

[MEFISTO]

Jagdpanther in SE doc is btw a big no from my side. Just saying.
Wherever Elephant goes, it should maintain fuel cost. High MP cost, esspecially in PE, is a greater burden than paying the fuel for it.

High MP and fuel makes these tank obsolete, for less you can have way better units, these tank is just a waste of res due to mobility, static turret.
It needs to cost less and have a bit of nerf.

[H.Drescher]

it's a meme unit that you get to snowball, when you are desperate, or when its a late game stalemate. Much like the Jadgtiger or King Tiger, it is a late game tank, but it is hyper specialized to be an amazing long range tank duelist in the mod.

The best buff that this tank could ever get is a massive reduction in its fuel upkeep, imo. Shifting it around is too much; lowering its current fuel price may end up as it being a rushed oppressively unit that shows up in the mid game rather than the late.

Scorched Earth has many other options to deal with tanks as does Defense Doctrine. It isn't like the doctrine is lacking on ultra tank murder capabilities.

As a personal anecdote, I often see players pick this tank expecting it to rolfostomp everything in front of it. The unfortunate reality is that it most often dies to infantry, artillery, and airplanes because people like to keep it always visible. Despite the tank having a camouflage ability. It is a slow, mobile AT bunker, that's all it is, and that's what it excels at.

[Consti255]

it's a meme unit that you get to snowball, when you are desperate, or when its a late game stalemate. Much like the Jadgtiger or King Tiger, it is a late game tank, but it is hyper specialized to be an amazing long range tank duelist in the mod.

The best buff that this tank could ever get is a massive reduction in its fuel upkeep, imo. Shifting it around is too much; lowering its current fuel price may end up as it being a rushed oppressively unit that shows up in the mid game rather than the late.

Scorched Earth has many other options to deal with tanks as does Defense Doctrine. It isn't like the doctrine is lacking on ultra tank murder capabilities.

As a personal anecdote, I often see players pick this tank expecting it to rolfostomp everything in front of it. The unfortunate reality is that it most often dies to infantry, artillery, and airplanes because people like to keep it always visible. Despite the tank having a camouflage ability. It is a slow, mobile AT bunker, that's all it is, and that's what it excels at.

You have the same gun in the nashorn or JP.
And out of an ambush, it mainly oneshots everything anyway.
All i am saying is, that this unit is cost wise just obsolete compared with the other alternatives.
Its a meme unit and unless it gets faster (what i shouldnt be) it will stay in that kind of position.

As i said, i would like to see more JPs arround SE and PS docs. It would make the balance easier and also the reward unit more of a choice instead of a 100% Nashorn choice.
There will no be difference if it stays as a reward unit or will be removed. The appereance will stay the same.

[Krieger Blitzer]

I like Elefant in SE to be honest.

[Frost]

it's a meme unit that you get to snowball, when you are desperate, or when its a late game stalemate. Much like the Jadgtiger or King Tiger, it is a late game tank, but it is hyper specialized to be an amazing long range tank duelist in the mod.

The best buff that this tank could ever get is a massive reduction in its fuel upkeep, imo. Shifting it around is too much; lowering its current fuel price may end up as it being a rushed oppressively unit that shows up in the mid game rather than the late.

Scorched Earth has many other options to deal with tanks as does Defense Doctrine. It isn't like the doctrine is lacking on ultra tank murder capabilities.

As a personal anecdote, I often see players pick this tank expecting it to rolfostomp everything in front of it. The unfortunate reality is that it most often dies to infantry, artillery, and airplanes because people like to keep it always visible. Despite the tank having a camouflage ability. It is a slow, mobile AT bunker, that's all it is, and that's what it excels at.

You have the same gun in the nashorn or JP.
And out of an ambush, it mainly oneshots everything anyway.
All i am saying is, that this unit is cost wise just obsolete compared with the other alternatives.
Its a meme unit and unless it gets faster (what i shouldnt be) it will stay in that kind of position.

As i said, i would like to see more JPs arround SE and PS docs. It would make the balance easier and also the reward unit more of a choice instead of a 100% Nashorn choice.
There will no be difference if it stays as a reward unit or will be removed. The appereance will stay the same.

eh.. i would probably still go for nashorns most of the time even if JP is present and limited to 1 because by late game hetzer struggles against churchills and super heavies in general not like you have the luxury to just close in with HEAT rounds and i don't remember whether it actually penetrate all the time.

Scorched Earth has many other options to deal with tanks as does Defense Doctrine. It isn't like the doctrine is lacking on ultra tank murder capabilities.

no that's wrong actually you really really struggle against super heavies with SE unlike other defense doctrines you cannot field 75mm in a field fortification or 88mm all you can do is pray to god your AT team does not get 1 shot or your 75mm at gun somehow make it to the field and actually penetrate something (which very unlikely to do for obvious reasons ) or your 75mm puma does not get 1 shot by the sherman it's trying to kill you get my point in act if anything SE is the weakest of all doctrines when it comes to fighting off super heavies or mass tank assaults you only have firefly to save the day along with nashorn or elefant.

and on top of that the only fortification which is special to you is actually limited to 1 also is it me? or actually the doctrine is like the last one to get art in the field? infantry guy was able to field a lot of art before i was even able to get my nebelwerfer curious the only thing i was able to use is sector art i kinda hate the mortar HT meta maybe make nebelwerfer require no panzersupport building

[MEFISTO]

it's a meme unit that you get to snowball, when you are desperate, or when its a late game stalemate. Much like the Jadgtiger or King Tiger, it is a late game tank, but it is hyper specialized to be an amazing long range tank duelist in the mod.

The best buff that this tank could ever get is a massive reduction in its fuel upkeep, imo. Shifting it around is too much; lowering its current fuel price may end up as it being a rushed oppressively unit that shows up in the mid game rather than the late.

Scorched Earth has many other options to deal with tanks as does Defense Doctrine. It isn't like the doctrine is lacking on ultra tank murder capabilities.

As a personal anecdote, I often see players pick this tank expecting it to rolfostomp everything in front of it. The unfortunate reality is that it most often dies to infantry, artillery, and airplanes because people like to keep it always visible. Despite the tank having a camouflage ability. It is a slow, mobile AT bunker, that's all it is, and that's what it excels at.

You have the same gun in the nashorn or JP.
And out of an ambush, it mainly oneshots everything anyway.
All i am saying is, that this unit is cost wise just obsolete compared with the other alternatives.
Its a meme unit and unless it gets faster (what i shouldnt be) it will stay in that kind of position.

As i said, i would like to see more JPs arround SE and PS docs. It would make the balance easier and also the reward unit more of a choice instead of a 100% Nashorn choice.
There will no be difference if it stays as a reward unit or will be removed. The appereance will stay the same.

eh.. i would probably still go for nashorns most of the time even if JP is present and limited to 1 because by late game hetzer struggles against churchills and super heavies in general not like you have the luxury to just close in with HEAT rounds and i don't remember whether it actually penetrate all the time.

Scorched Earth has many other options to deal with tanks as does Defense Doctrine. It isn't like the doctrine is lacking on ultra tank murder capabilities.

no that's wrong actually you really really struggle against super heavies with SE unlike other defense doctrines you cannot field 75mm in a field fortification or 88mm all you can do is pray to god your AT team does not get 1 shot or your 75mm at gun somehow make it to the field and actually penetrate something (which very unlikely to do for obvious reasons ) or your 75mm puma does not get 1 shot by the sherman it's trying to kill you get my point in act if anything SE is the weakest of all doctrines when it comes to fighting off super heavies or mass tank assaults you only have firefly to save the day along with nashorn or elefant.

and on top of that the only fortification which is special to you is actually limited to 1 also is it me? or actually the doctrine is like the last one to get art in the field? infantry guy was able to field a lot of art before i was even able to get my nebelwerfer curious the only thing i was able to use is sector art i kinda hate the mortar HT meta maybe make nebelwerfer require no panzersupport building

100% agree with you Frost.

[Diablo]

So 210mm Nebler after Logistik Kompanie upgrade?


Btw. the thread title is a wasted opportunity -- should have been "The Elephant in the Room"

[Red]

I am not an SE Doc guy, but I miss the Elephant in Def Doc.
That being said, I do not know how I would like it in Def Doc with fuel costs and armor nerf; I guess fuel cost would be doable, but armor nerf would make me like it a lot less, as it used to be my go-to spearhead. However, a bata on this would help, as now it is theoretical.

[MarKr]

JP won't be moved to SE. It's nit needed there.

The only other argument I saw here was "Elefant cost is ridiculous" to which several people agreed but no suggestions of a "non-ridiculous" cost have been given. What should it cost then?

[Consti255]

it's a meme unit that you get to snowball, when you are desperate, or when its a late game stalemate. Much like the Jadgtiger or King Tiger, it is a late game tank, but it is hyper specialized to be an amazing long range tank duelist in the mod.

The best buff that this tank could ever get is a massive reduction in its fuel upkeep, imo. Shifting it around is too much; lowering its current fuel price may end up as it being a rushed oppressively unit that shows up in the mid game rather than the late.

Scorched Earth has many other options to deal with tanks as does Defense Doctrine. It isn't like the doctrine is lacking on ultra tank murder capabilities.

As a personal anecdote, I often see players pick this tank expecting it to rolfostomp everything in front of it. The unfortunate reality is that it most often dies to infantry, artillery, and airplanes because people like to keep it always visible. Despite the tank having a camouflage ability. It is a slow, mobile AT bunker, that's all it is, and that's what it excels at.

You have the same gun in the nashorn or JP.
And out of an ambush, it mainly oneshots everything anyway.
All i am saying is, that this unit is cost wise just obsolete compared with the other alternatives.
Its a meme unit and unless it gets faster (what i shouldnt be) it will stay in that kind of position.

As i said, i would like to see more JPs arround SE and PS docs. It would make the balance easier and also the reward unit more of a choice instead of a 100% Nashorn choice.
There will no be difference if it stays as a reward unit or will be removed. The appereance will stay the same.

eh.. i would probably still go for nashorns most of the time even if JP is present and limited to 1 because by late game hetzer struggles against churchills and super heavies in general not like you have the luxury to just close in with HEAT rounds and i don't remember whether it actually penetrate all the time.

Scorched Earth has many other options to deal with tanks as does Defense Doctrine. It isn't like the doctrine is lacking on ultra tank murder capabilities.

no that's wrong actually you really really struggle against super heavies with SE unlike other defense doctrines you cannot field 75mm in a field fortification or 88mm all you can do is pray to god your AT team does not get 1 shot or your 75mm at gun somehow make it to the field and actually penetrate something (which very unlikely to do for obvious reasons ) or your 75mm puma does not get 1 shot by the sherman it's trying to kill you get my point in act if anything SE is the weakest of all doctrines when it comes to fighting off super heavies or mass tank assaults you only have firefly to save the day along with nashorn or elefant.

and on top of that the only fortification which is special to you is actually limited to 1 also is it me? or actually the doctrine is like the last one to get art in the field? infantry guy was able to field a lot of art before i was even able to get my nebelwerfer curious the only thing i was able to use is sector art i kinda hate the mortar HT meta maybe make nebelwerfer require no panzersupport building

the JP would just be more capable of beeing your main defense line, while Nashorns can take over the map as a TD.
It could open up way more room for other tactics when playing scorched earth.
The JP would also make SE more capable of beeing a 1v1 doc than the elephant or the Nashorns for example.

Its also just unfair, that the JP is so limited availabe while also build in pretty high numbers when it got introduced.
For me its also one of the more enjoyable fights when playing against it, it has no KT armor, and needs to be used carefully since its very vurnable against arty and infantry, while other heavys most likely have some sort of anti inf capabilitys.

I can see the elephant as beeing brought back to Def doc aswell, i dont care at all for it. Because i would still not go for it anyway, not matter which doc.

[Consti255]

JP won't be moved to SE. It's nit needed there.

The only other argument I saw here was "Elefant cost is ridiculous" to which several people agreed but no suggestions of a "non-ridiculous" cost have been given. What should it cost then?

why isnt it not needed there ?
You DO struggle vs heavys from allies, because either you go for fragile nashorns or for the elephant which both are higly vurnable against arty.
The Nashorn because of its low HP and armor and the elephant because of its speed and immobilization.

Nashorns can be do their job, but i think a JP would be really fitting as a reward unit as i explained in the upper post.
Nashorns = spamable big gun
JP = limited more tanky version (solo unit)

[Krieger Blitzer]

Reazon i like Elefant in SE is how it's accessible much earlier than it used to be in Def doc where it was available too late.. and i think the price is fine.

[Warhawks97]

why isnt it not needed there ?
You DO struggle vs heavys from allies, because either you go for fragile nashorns or for the elephant which both are higly vurnable against arty.
The Nashorn because of its low HP and armor and the elephant because of its speed and immobilization.

Nashorns can be do their job, but i think a JP would be really fitting as a reward unit as i explained in the upper post.
Nashorns = spamable big gun
JP = limited more tanky version (solo unit)

I played SE more than any other doc in PE and i never felt like having an urgend need for anything larger than nashorn. Nashorn in combo with a 20 mm car and inf is doing very well. As long as you use all your krads you should be fine. I wouldnt want a Jagdpanther in SE doc. It doesnt fit its theme at all. I never felt like i am missing a lot with Hetzer, nashorn and some anti inf stuff.

[Consti255]

i think it fits pretty good into the theme of SE.

[Warhawks97]

i think it fits pretty good into the theme of SE.

explain me how? A doctrine based arround mines, ambushes, traps, big but squishy guns shows up with brute force and elite tank destroyer?