Doctrinal unlocks

[Warhawks97]

I already made a topic about this here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=4093&p=36769&hilit ... cks#p36769

But i thought i will shorten this one up. Its always a pain to me when i pick a doctrine and see all the shit stuff being unlocked over and over again.
On top of that these unlocks dont really provide an "improvment" of what already exists and doesnt really outline the doctrine or is outright weaker than lots of the non-doctrinal stuff.
In my opinion, every unlock in every doctrine should be something really exclusive or at least not common everywhere.

And then there are unlocks that just shouldnt be unlocks at all and simply become available right after a doctrine was chosen.


In any way, CP unlocks should outline a doctrine and should not contain stuff that is the same in many other doctrines.


CP unlocks that should not be CP unlocks and instead universal or unlocked after a doctrine is picked:

Germans:
- Panzer IV´s (F2, H/J)
- Stug III / IV
- Panthers (?)

US:
- 76 Sherman
- M10
- M18 (?)

CW:
- Churchill MK IV
- Firefly
- Achilles remains a doctrinal unlock, likely in RA (Canadian doc) while CW receives basic M10´s as non CP unlocks in all docs.

These tanks are either universally available or unlocked right after the doctrine had been picked Like the MK IV churchill or perhaps the Panthers.
As already suggsted a couple of times, the CP cost could be compensated with fuel cost increases. The M10 for instance with its 35 fuel is dirty cheap and should easily cost arround 50 fuel but no CP.



I dont have ideas for every doctrine at hand, but for a few:

BK doc:

- Panzer IV unlock replaced by "Improved gunner Training" that makes the tanks shoot more accurate.
- Panther unlock replaced by "Tank crew veterancy"
- Stug III unlock replaced by Maultier unlock


Prop doc:
- Stug III added and unlock removed and replaced by Ostwind unlock.


Inf doc:
- M10 unlock replaced with M6A3C missiles for Bazooka
- 76 sherman unlock replaced by cheaper weapon upgrades.
Possibly also hull down positions for tanks.


AB doc:
- M10 unlock replaced by "improved Infantry anti tank Tactics". Improves the reload speed, accuracy and damage of RL rifles and Bazookas from 101st and 82nd. In case we get weapons package upgrades in the future, The RL upgrade will give the squad also an additional RL rifle.
- 76 sherman unlock replaced by Air supremacy unlock that shortens the cooldown of planes. Perhaps the 76 sherman gets removed entirely from this doctrine.


Luft doc:
- F2 unlock replaced by Wirbelwind unlock and/or by cheaper AA weapon unlocks which reduces cost of quad 20 mm weapons and 88 guns.
- Panther unlock perhaps replaced by Wirbelwind unlock or veterancy anti aircraft crews.


- SE doc:
- Replace F2 unlock with an unlock that allows the infantry to ambush or at least allows the heavy assault grens to ambush.



I am lacking ideas for the brits since i dont play them really often. Perhaps anyone else got ideas for them.

[Consti255]

I agree 100%.
Ive also made a topic over this theme already.
I always hate for example paying 2 CPs to get a poopy F2 or even M10 which is 2 CP for a unversitile TD!

I know i am not a big fan of big remakes, but hell, i hate i from the bottom of my soul spending CP for basic units which shouldnt be in a doctrinal unlock tree.

Great ideas so far Hawks, i also like the idea of adding the M6A3C rockets or cheaper weapons behind CP.

What i like also, putting the ostwind,wirblewind and maultier behind CP. This units are reall specific doc units and are worth putting behind CP.


What goes for SE for example. I'd like to see a full remove from the assault grens from this doc.
As i postet in many post before, assault pios should be the main force in SE. Which get backed up by panzergrens with the many abilitys SE gives them.
What i could see for some other ideas would be:

-CP Buffs for assault pios
-More options for the sabotage sqaud. (Maybe more focus of taking out strategic points?)
- More weapon options for normal Panzergrens (more G43s or MGs)


Next Blitz and Panthers. I disagree putting Panthers in a doc without a CP unlock. Such powerful medium tank should be behind CP and tiering. (It is a doc specific tank so yeah it should stay behind CP)

What about trained top gunners? Giving the german top gunner equal lethality compared to the US one.

I am available for a brainstorming with you or maybe even the devs if we can convince them.
-

[Warhawks97]

I made an quick example of what inf doc could look like when we removed the silly "basic unlocks" which you have to go over and over regardless of the doctrine.

This is just one example. Trying to make AB doc next.

Other stuff can be merged. Like srsly, One unlock enabling rifles to build defenses like sandbags and then one extra to build the so called defensive position that barely sees any use.

Or making riflemen cheaper and faster production of inf should not be two seperate unlocks. Thats a waste. Esspecially now since low tier inf got shitty Veterancy.

[Consti255]

Looking great so far.

I feel like 2 CP for the M6A3C rockets is a bit much.
What about also adding Bazooka training?
This could lower the aim time for bazookas aswell?

[Warhawks97]

First i was looking on how pointless doctrinal unlocks can be replaced by something more usefull. But i think BK in general has a big issues with doctrinal unlocks. So i spend the past 4 days or so with recreating doctrines to make them in general more logical in their appearence and more clearly arranged. Many of them just look like a huge mess of randomly added unlocks all accross the board.



What is flawed with BK doctrines?:

1.Weird unlock designs: Their unlocks are extremely weird and randomly added. If i would be a new player trying to figure out Bk doctrines, i would give up on it when i would try to understand them by just looking at it. And i wouldnt even be able to explain new players why unlocks are arranged the way they are.
So, what do i actually mean by looking extremely messy? Well:

And also having random single unlocks flying arround in doctrines doesnt really help making things better. Some might call it "flexibility" but thats not really the case in my opinion. At the one hand with tried to add depth to doctrinal unlocks like with did with Luftwaffe doctrine as to force a decision for the player which way to choose instead of adapting to any threat by a single click on an unlock An example is this one here:

2. Repetitive unlocks: M10, Sherman 76.... Doctrinal unlocks should be unique among a factions and not being the same accross two or all three doctrines. Its like we just copy-paste doctrines and change a few flowers arround them. Instead of an arty strike you get an airplane but overall the gameplay remains largely the same boring shit.


3. Fundamental unlocks to survive: Playing a doctrine should give you real options which strategy to chose and which unlocks to unlock first. My favorit PE doctrine right now is TS doctrine while for WH it is BK doctrine. However i dont feel like i have choice which path to go first. I often tried to unlock other stuff like urban support or stormtroopers in Bk doc or infantry and vehicles in TS doc. It might start relatively well early on but dare you spend too much time unlocking other stuff than tanks. At some which is rather soon in a game the enemie tanks will bring your entire offensive to a halt and grind you down.

Typical examples of "essential unlocks to survive":

I cant remember how many times i was in a game where i wished i had a choice but i hadnt.
The only time you have your freedom is when you got a mate who goes for these essebtial unlocks while you can focus on something else.


4. High valuable doctrinal stuff is simply put in a doctrine as a normal research:

Doctrinal stuff to buy

Game changing highly doctrinal stuff being simply turned into purchasable unlocks.jpg (25.69 KiB) Viewed 2538 times

Game changing highly doctrinal stuff being simply turned into purchasable unlocks II.jpg (37.13 KiB) Viewed 2538 times

5. Highly effective stuff that have a real impact on the game like HVAP and APCR rounds are simply there ready to be purchased for an apple and an egg. Like "Oh, you can boost your penetration by 50%!.... "yeah, its for sale today...lets make it cost less than a fucking BAR on a rifle squad."






So, essentially in BK we prefer to go through the always same unlock procedure of unlocking the same essential stuff over and over and over again because we have to in order to survive. Meanwhile super cool doctrinal abilities are being thrown into buildings. Cant these things just swap places? The essential survival stuff being available always perhaps locked behind some research while keeping the cool and fanzy doctrinal stuff in the doctrines tree?
Panzers IV´s, Sherman 76, Stugs, Fireflies, M10 wolverine and even Panthers should be normal research.

[Consti255]

I agree as said before.
You are getting your ass whooped when you just play arround with some doc unlocks.
To be honest you can only play arround with unlocks in 3 cases:

1. You have already won
2. Your skill level is way higher than from your opponent
3. in teamgames where your mate goes for basic stuff and sends you for example a m10 to cover things.


That beeing said, i think there is not that much difference between tiering or CP unlocks. Both require resources in their own way.
What i dislike the most, is that these basic unlocks are repetetive and in high skilled gameplay almost a must unlock and on top block potential cool doctrinal stuff to unlock.

We have enough cool things to add or try out in this docs to male them more specific while also keeping the 1v1 potential where the initial reworks aimed for.
You dont make a doctrine more pvp balance when you put basic units in the CP tree. You can put them anyway in the unit roster and it would just open up more fun and strategic unlocks.

What about the V1 for prop doc, what about hit and run tactics for armor doc, specific crew training for gunners, maybe other plane armament, what about more potential Sub docs like PS got?
We have so much freedom to add already existing assets to docs to make them more different while also keeping them potent in PvP.

Its just examples what could be added. I dont say ADD THE V1.

I know its a huge request from the Devs, but it would make the game more accessable for new players and would also lure old players back to the game.

[Warhawks97]

I will shortly show up some ideas i created to clean up the docs. I removed all repetetive unlocks (i think only churchill can be found in two docs). Removed all "must go unlocks" and cleaned up some of the super weird doctrines that have arrows showing literally in all directions to confuse the players. Also made sure there is no stand alone unlock anywhere.

Generally M10 and 76 shermans are available to all docs by default but require a bit more tec than now except for the M10. Fuel prices might go up a bit in return.

In this doc the M18 gets incorporated into AB tree line as means of supporting them. You can chose to specialize more into AT warefare after the combat training. The Improved AT training for AB makes the 101st able to carry 3 RL rifles and their accuracy, reload and damage gets increased. M18 cost goes down to 300 MP and 50 fuel and has flank speed and HVAP by default.
The 76 mm AT gun as dropable AT in return is removed as this doc is rather a fast doc. Their inf becomes potent in anti tank warefare after special anti training. Also re-added the air raid ability that attacks everything in the target area with strafes, bombs and rockets, including buildings since this doc has weak defense and no heavy anti tank canons.
After M18 unlock the build times of TD´s can be reduced by 40% in the last unlock. Its called rapid Tank destroyer support.

Not much to say i think. It got an entire branch of anti tank unlocks with tellermines, M6A3C missiles for zooks that also improves the Rangers bazooka handling by lowering the reload time and improving accuracy.

Armor doc got a tactical support branch at the top line with arty strike, mortar HT, combat engis and calli.
Then it has the armored support starting with 105 sherman and going down to easy eight and pershing or Jumbo. E8 gets flank speed with vet and withe phosphoros rounds and replaces the normal 76 sherman. Cost remain same.
Then they got mechanized field support. The repair unlock also unlocks improved self repairs.
Finally something to overwhelm armor. Having cheaper tanks, then HVAP rounds for all tanks and Jackson. Jackson in turn costs only 450 MP and 90 fuel in exchange for the high CP cost.


Brits get firefly and M10 wolverine right by default now. Cost of firefly will be however 450 MP and 90 fuel. It requires a special upgrade in the armored support truck.

Canadian Army got the machanized artillery branch with tank artillery, churchills, priest and finally M10. This doc is the only one able to field Achilles, however this one costs only 350 MP and 60 fuel. It replaces the basic M10 wolverine that is available now to all CW docs.
Then it got a branch purely to boost its arty. Cheap ammo, super charge rounds, observation arty and creeping barrage.
Then it got observed artillery branch and finally Canadian field support with Canadian inf, sector smoke and Canadian 76 sherman support.

Royal air force has a commando branch. The Vehicle glider gets an improvment that unlocks pack howitzer, AT guns etc.... light vehicles like SAS jeep can capture as well later.
Then there is a special operations branch with SAS and sabotage stuff.

Quite self explanatory i think. The unlock next to the first churchill imroves the churchill and infantry when thy fight together by increasing accuracy, sight range and reducing reload times for both, tank and infantry.

Has air support branch with the Stuka being replaced by a Fw190 dropping 6 or 8 66 KG fragmentation bombs that can deal damage to inf and vehicles but also a bit against tanks. Powerfull but late.
Then there is an air defense branch with luft pios and cheaper AA and 88
Finally ground force support with gebis, wirbelwind and Stupa support.
Luftwaffe wont be able to sabotage points anymore. Its relegated to SE. Sabotage doesnt really fit into luftwaffe as it does to RAF or SE.

Getting stupa as support to boosted assault pioneers. Firestorm is completely misplaced in this doc in my opinion. Idk who got this fancy idea to add sector arty+ firestorm for 3 CP in total. Complete no-brainer.

My fav doc but never got smart of out of it. To this day idk what this doc is actually supposed to do. So i went a bit back to the basics focusing it on anti tank warefare. Panther is available by default now and Tiger and KT removed since i never saw anyone using them. This doc could have gotten the name "Rush panther asap doctrine".
This doc got a heavy anti tank branch, mechanized branch and an infantry anti tank branch. It can utilize heavy grille artillery now with a range of 120. So its a short ranged devestating 150mm barrage.

It also has a special training for Tank gunners that unlocks abilites like long range shots on Jagdpanther etc as well as improving all tanks accuracy.
Their tanks can also utilize APCR rounds and crew gets vet training.

[Warhawks97]

This doc is different from what we saw. The Maultier is now behind CPs and yes, it got the wespe since i think it fits well here.
Also a field call in consists now of a stuh 42 and storms rather than a Pz III and storms. Call in costs 700 MP and 50 fuel though. Stuhs can still be build manually for 400 MP and 50 fuel.

The assault ability is added as an unlock again since it gives this ability to volkgrenadiers and grenadiers as well. grens will come back as 5 men baseline inf for 300 MP and their only default upgrade is an LMG42.

Howitzer gets locked behind 4 CP. 2 CP is just a no brainer and anyoing as fuck in every way. First unlock is registered artillery that can be used on cap points and buildings. The Grille got a new role in PE TS doc.

After infantry def training grens can get G43 or Schrecks.
Vsturm moved here starting with 6 men and being 8 at the end.

Returned to Terror doc.
The Prop doc makes me feel like i wage a proganda war against civilians with civilians and using deceptive dark magic to win the game.
Grens become quite interesting here. They can be upgraded with MP40 after unlock, deploy smoke in a fashion commandos do and can use flamethrowers and flame nades and firestorm support. The off map rocket strike was way too much of an godlike ability. Also they can get Panzerfausts by default after unlock and after improving their combat effectivness.

Also this doc is the only one that can use mortar HT´s in WH. It costs 2 CP and 300 MP and 25 fuel to build like its american counterpart in armor doc.

[Consti255]

Wow...
That looks absolutely cool.
That whould be a cool beta to test out.

Any Devs response?

[MEFISTO]

I don’t have enough time right now to talk about all the doctrines but I will post some of my thoughts about the way you made BK doctrine.
Bk is my favorite axis doctrine and I have been playing it for a long time, I will post later since I am at work.

[Krieger Blitzer]

Some ideas are cool, some ideas are not.. but generally speaking; i wouldn't be down for another rework.
Otherwise we would be going in circles; re-working the re-worked re-work of the re-worked re-work re-working...

[MEFISTO]

Some ideas are cool, some ideas are not.. but generally speaking; i wouldn't be down for another rework.
Otherwise we would be going in circles; re-working the re-worked re-work of the re-worked re-work re-working...

+1

[Consti255]

To be honest, There are great ideas and not so great.
But generally speaking, unlocking this basic units for every doc does not end up in a whole "rework".
It just gives the game more sensefull unlocks and more depth for EVERY faction + docs.
You dont have to adapt it in a 1:1 scale, but i am 100% for the change of the basic must go unlocks, like M10s, 76, P4s and Stugs.
They are as i said, just place holders from the reworks for pvp oriented docs.
Back in the days, the balance was WAAY different and it was the fastest and fairest change for all the docs to make them on par as most as possible.

Hawks suggestion in my opinion is great and it can be build oppon pretty easy.
Its changes for all factions on a balanced level while giving docs more room for actually doc specific unlocks.

We all know, Hawks always wents for drastic changes instead of small changes, but if you look closely, the change wouldnt affect the current meta as much as you think.

Why ?
These basic units get most likely unlocked anyway so making them available after a certain tiering wouldnt change anything. ( I am looking mostly at mediums, TDs and big mediums like the panther)

When we are beeing honest to ourself, it makes the unlocks from tank oriented docs boring as hell.
Armor doc rushes 76s and arty, PS doc goes almost everytime straight into tanks (sometimes for the logistic upgrade but after that STRAIGHT tanks) when was the last time someone went for the gren route?! @Tiger we know all your gameplays and i never saw it that you went for gren unlocks first playing PS doc. (just an example).
Blitz? Straight Panthers with sometimes a storm unlock.. the list goes on and on.

I got time to play the next days and i will upload a ton of games as replays to show the Devs how repetetive the unlocks and games go.
I know, nothing HAS to change, but it would be NICE if we could get some freedom in unlocking stuff playing armor intended docs with more versitlity and infantry focused once with actually Infantry buffs instead of 2 wasted CPs for a M10..

Mefisto for example. Post your reason as you said, instead just makeing a positive. You said you wanted to post your oppinion for Blitz doc for example. I would love to hear it.
Hawks and I do make some thinking for this posts, aswell he spends alot of time and afford into this posts. He visiualize stuff etc and gets good gameplay reasons (in my opinion), so i think it would be at leased great to get some reasons why it could be good for the game or why it could make it worse.

Also, i still would like some Devs response to that topic in general and why for example it should stay like it currently is or why i could be changed what are pros and cons. Me and Hawks already made 2-3 topics each for this topic and as far as i can see we didnt recieved a clear standpoint. (as far as i remember! correct me if i am wrong!) Would be great to hear some of the devs oppinions.

[MEFISTO]

I don't have time to do all of the doctrines because I am studying and working but I will tell you what I think about these bk changes.
BK doctrine doesn't need the grenadiers, this doctrine has stormtroopers and Volks, actually, Propaganda doctrine needs grenadiers more than BK doctrine but Dev are not going to move grenadiers back to Propaganda.
Not agree with a 50 fuel cost for the call-in, that is not a reward if you can make it for the same price.
Talking about heavy tank unlock, a panther costs the same CP as a Pershing. I remember when some players discussed the mid-game stage, how players only rushed heavy tanks, this is basically what you are proposing, 6 CP Pershing.
About The Maultier behind CP unlock is a big no from me, it cost 400 MP and 40 fuel plus ammunition upkeep and you need to go to the assault phase and build the HQ.
Because you think Wespe fits well here it doesn't mean it does, Bk already has Maultier, StuH 42, and Stuka air support, no need for an 8 CP Wespe.
Talking about artillery, when you take a luke to some allies doctrines they have good and cheap artillery support (no cp unlock) like the Rocket Launcher Jeep, or 75mm M1A1 Pack Howitzer for a good price, BK doctrine with a Maultier behind CP won't have any artillery support to push or at least to counter vs these early allies artillery.
1 CP infantry assault? looks like you just need to add 1 CP.
Wespe should go back to SE or cost less cp in Panzer Support, this doctrine has no cheap artillery support, you have to invest too many CP to have decent artillery support.

[MEFISTO]

I still think some units should be behind CP to avoid other units getting obsolete.

[Sukin-kot (SVT)]

Those definitely look way more interesting gameplay-wise than the current docs. I will be keen on trying those. AB, RAF and Terror are exceptionally interesting.

Few remarks:

1) Mortar halftrucks unlocks aren't cool, it's not a very impactful unit to be locked behind CP
2) Shermans coming after the smoke ability in Canadians doc doesn't make sense
3) Triangulation in Raf should be 1 CP and come after SAS. Extra CP to camo unlock
4) Comet after engineers unlocks in RE is weird
5) Luft without Panther will struggle against tanks too much.
6) Why does Hetzer come before Nashorn in SE?
7) Ain't agree with the removal of Tiger and KT from Panzer Support, many people do use them. Where did another 2 pzgrens upgrades go?
8) Panther by default is insanely OP in BK. I'd rather keep it behind CP with Maultier being CP free instead.
9) Wespe would be cool in Def instead of BK.

Other than that, shut up and take my money!

@devs even if you will never dare to try something like this, please please address the issue of unlocking basic stuff. It makes the games so boring when everyone has to unlock medium tanks/ tanks destroyers first. Many docs are unplayable unless you always stick to a particular command tree branch, e.g. BK, TH, Prop gets steamrolled if they don't rush their tank branches.

Plus some current docs are insanely bad. Propohanda with those dota 2 style buffes and shitty volksturm that are so anticlimatic for BK mod. Or AB, that is worse than RAF, Luft and Inf almost in every single way.

[Consti255]

@devs even if you will never dare to try something like this, please please address the issue of unlocking basic stuff. It makes the games so boring when everyone has to unlock medium tanks/ tanks destroyers first. Many docs are unplayable unless you always stick to a particular command tree branch, e.g. BK, TH, Prop gets steamrolled if they don't rush their tank branches.

Plus some current docs are insanely bad. Propohanda with those dota 2 style buffes and shitty volksturm that are so anticlimatic for BK mod. Or AB, that is worse than RAF, Luft and Inf almost in every single way.

I put this first because i 100% agree here. It would be cool if the devs could take a look at this basic unit placeholder stuff..
I dont think units get obsolete that way. Why tho? Just lock it behind tiering.

BK doctrine doesn't need the grenadiers, this doctrine has stormtroopers and Volks, actually, Propaganda doctrine needs grenadiers more than BK doctrine but Dev are not going to move grenadiers back to Propaganda.

agreed.

Not agree with a 50 fuel cost for the call-in, that is not a reward if you can make it for the same price.

why not? You get a way better destructive üushing force with the StuH. People who likes to turtle can bet cracked way better with this kinda force.

Talking about heavy tank unlock, a panther costs the same CP as a Pershing. I remember when some players discussed the mid-game stage, how players only rushed heavy tanks, this is basically what you are proposing, 6 CP Pershing.

Indeed. I would stay away from a CP less panther.

About The Maultier behind CP unlock is a big no from me, it cost 400 MP and 40 fuel plus ammunition upkeep and you need to go to the assault phase and build the HQ.

ehh... If you compare that unit with mortar halftracks.... They cost nearly the same. If you compare it to pack howitzers.. ehh.. it blows them away by a mile.. 10 rockets with fire.. In my opinion its defnitly a unit which should stay behind CP. Also, you dont have to invest into P4s like now, so you have enough CP to spend for it.

Because you think Wespe fits well here it doesn't mean it does, Bk already has Maultier, StuH 42, and Stuka air support, no need for an 8 CP Wespe.

agreed. Blitz got enough arty and plane support. no Wespe necessary. Maultier should be available to get right away after the call in. So when the StuH isnt enough, you can bring in the heavy guns.

Talking about artillery, when you take a luke to some allies doctrines they have good and cheap artillery support (no cp unlock) like the Rocket Launcher Jeep, or 75mm M1A1 Pack Howitzer for a good price, BK doctrine with a Maultier behind CP won't have any artillery support to push or at least to counter vs these early allies artillery.

you have the StuH call in to counter defensives and steamroll enemy units with the urbans. Also you got a mortar HT with flames and a heavy grenade. and if its not enough you can get the Maultier.

1 CP infantry assault? looks like you just need to add 1 CP.

Assault ability isnt worth CP imo. Way to clunky and just good in clearing defensives. let the panther take its spot for 2 CP and swap it with the vet for tank crews.

Soo, we have 2 CP left since the wespe inst really fitting imo.
Possibilitys:
ambush: Storms can crall with 1 shrek. (maybe?) not the biggest fan.
Fuel trade: simply bring back the fuel trade. It fits Blitz doc imo.

1) Mortar halftrucks unlocks aren't cool, it's not a very impactful unit to be locked behind CP

agreed.

2) Shermans coming after the smoke ability in Canadians doc doesn't make sense

indeed. Since the new addition of the heavy arty bombardment, i think smoke att a whole isnt necessary. I would like to see more candian units or call ins. Canadian expenditionary force? Giving candiands a 5 men call in with flame throwes and satchels? So you can play the doc a pure candian way?

3) Triangulation in Raf should be 1 CP and come after SAS. Extra CP to camo unlock

cool idea.

5) Luft without Panther will struggle against tanks too much.

its made after the Hermann/Goring divison. I think its cool, but i would really like to see the Jp4/70 instead of the Stupa here. Less offensive capabilitys from the panther, but the same gun. Would be fitting imo.

6) Why does Hetzer come before Nashorn in SE?

you mean the nashorn before the Hetzer right ? I think Hawks screwd up the arrow.

7) Ain't agree with the removal of Tiger and KT from Panzer Support, many people do use them. Where did another 2 pzgrens upgrades go?

mhhh. Actually i would like it, but in the opposite way. I almost exclusively see players goig the heavy tank route instead the tank destroyer one.
I always like the pure TD doc more. Thats just personal preferences. they can stay imo.

8) Panther by default is insanely OP in BK. I'd rather keep it behind CP with Maultier being CP free instead.

agree. Already made a solution for it in the post ahead.

9) Wespe would be cool in Def instead of BK.

yeah, swaped with the grille.

[Warhawks97]

I don't have time to do all of the doctrines because I am studying and working but I will tell you what I think about these bk changes. BK doctrine doesn't need the grenadiers, this doctrine has stormtroopers and Volks, actually, Propaganda doctrine needs grenadiers more than BK doctrine but Dev are not going to move grenadiers back to Propaganda.

I would add grens back as a basic main line inf accross WH but with smaller 5 men squads and lower cost. Their basic upgrade will be lmg42. Depending on doc you get additional stuff. In BK doc they can use assault ability after unlock, in Terror doc smoke concealment, MP40, flamethrower and panzerfaust and in def doc G43 and schrecks after defensive training unlock for inf.

Not agree with a 50 fuel cost for the call-in, that is not a reward if you can make it for the same price.

Otherwise this call in would have to cost like 800 MP. I would rather spend some fuel for it but getting stuh and storms relatively cheap in terms of MP.

Talking about heavy tank unlock, a panther costs the same CP as a Pershing. I remember when some players discussed the mid-game stage, how players only rushed heavy tanks, this is basically what you are proposing, 6 CP Pershing.

Pershings are 7 CP in this picture but can easily be like 8 or so.
The thing is players will always rush tanks regardless of the CP cost simply because they are so important. Basically the only thing that happens is that more and more CP are being bumped into Tanks which forces players to spare even more CP for them.

When we have Panzer IV´s, 76 shermans and that stuff and perhaps even Panthers CP free (but counters to them like firefly also CP free) players would actually start spending CP into different branches of their doctrine.

On top of that the current tec system is super one dimensional. In vcoh but also other mods you gotta have to decide where to spend your fuel into and it takes a long way to reach "max tec status". In BK you barely have these kind of options and max tec is reached super fast.

About The Maultier behind CP unlock is a big no from me, it cost 400 MP and 40 fuel plus ammunition upkeep and you need to go to the assault phase and build the HQ.

Maultier cost will go down to 350 MP or something ofc.

Because you think Wespe fits well here it doesn't mean it does, Bk already has Maultier, StuH 42, and Stuka air support, no need for an 8 CP Wespe.

Yes and no. I think it does since the panther alone quickly loses its breakthrough power once the enemies got their Jacksons and Achilles and comets unlocked. Those units are pretty cheap then like 350 MP for achilles, 450 for comet and 450 for jacksons if not less. So i think it would make sense to back them up with wespe.

Def doc might also be an option though.

Talking about artillery, when you take a luke to some allies doctrines they have good and cheap artillery support (no cp unlock) like the Rocket Launcher Jeep, or 75mm M1A1 Pack Howitzer for a good price, BK doctrine with a Maultier behind CP won't have any artillery support to push or at least to counter vs these early allies artillery.

75 mm Pack howitzers in RAF and AB doc will requie an unlock. Either the glider unlock or 57 mm AT gun unlock unlocking also the pack howitzer.
Calli jeep is not really cost effective atm. I dont use them. Eating all your ammo and fuel for little effect. It can be locked with the mortar HT though. Thus most of that early arty will be locked behind CPs. Other docs like Terror, SE, RE and so on also dont have any 0 CP arty. Not every doctrine is supposed to have powerfull arty right away.
On top of that Maultier is probably by far the most devestating 0 CP arty in the game along with the 210 nebler. But that one is far less mobile.

1 CP infantry assault? looks like you just need to add 1 CP.
Wespe should go back to SE or cost less cp in Panzer Support, this doctrine has no cheap artillery support, you have to invest too many CP to have decent artillery support.

SE is filled with arty. It doesnt make sense to double up stuff. I would rather test a stuh in SE doc which will add a cheap ammo free anti defensive unit while Hummel can hit the real strongpoints.
And Wespe made cheaper in TS doc would turn this doc too much into an arty doc capable of engaging in long ranged artillery counter gameplay. Thats why i proposed a short ranged grille that delivers shots on targets without being long range artillery warefare capable. Afterall this 150 mm gun is a short infantry support gun like the leig 18. Its not even a howitzer like the Hummel

Those definitely look way more interesting gameplay-wise than the current docs. I will be keen on trying those. AB, RAF and Terror are exceptionally interesting.

Few remarks:

1) Mortar halftrucks unlocks aren't cool, it's not a very impactful unit to be locked behind CP

True. We already had this debate. The thing is they cost a hell lot and usually its easier and saver to go for artillery right away. Mortar halftracks spend 90% of their time with moving arround trying to dodge arty, enemie mortars and trying to escape from tanks and infantry attacks. Often enough their pathing means death. They are prime targets for all arty and airstrikes.

So my idea behind that was to make them CP based and doctrinal (PE will keep them afterall as factional thing except for SE which gets the 120 mm mortar instead) and therefore cheaper. I should have made them cost only 1 CP in Terror and armor doc. Their build cost will be something like 280 MP and 25-30 fuel.

2) Shermans coming after the smoke ability in Canadians doc doesn't make sense

Sure, we can pack smoke ability within any of the artillery branches. Like unlocked after the VT.
But my idea was that this branch down there is a special tactical support branch. On the left side we get the heavy hammer with arty, priest, heavy tanks and achilles. Then two arty branches and finally a mobile tactical branch that focuses on mobility and versatility. Hence canadian inf, smoke and canadian shermans. The tec trees are no longer only divided into tank branch, arty and inf. But instead of which tactical combination make sense. Canadians with stens and zooks and 76 shermans rushing through a heavy smoke cloud for a surprise attack makes perfect sense to me.

3) Triangulation in Raf should be 1 CP and come after SAS. Extra CP to camo unlock

So 3 CP for crawling in total?
The Triangulation can be indeed 1 CP. But idk if i would unlock SAS before or after.

4) Comet after engineers unlocks in RE is weird

I had my difficulties with RE. Didnt know where to put the comet without being a single unlock which i try to prevent. BK never had single unlocks. It all started with making M10 and 76 shermans independent unlocks in US docs. And from then onwards doctrines got filled over with single unlocks all across the board.
First i wanted to put the AVRE behind the sapper unlocks to be some sort of special demolition branch. The comet meanwhile unlocked after some churchills or tellermines. The doctrine doesnt really have a cruiser tank branch so we got to be smart in order to find a suited branch for comet. My first guess would be after tellermines which will be seperated from stronger emplacments. If you have a place where it isnt unlocked too early, just let me know.

5) Luft without Panther will struggle against tanks too much.

It keeps Panthers.

6) Why does Hetzer come before Nashorn in SE?

Well, usually we have that typicall unlock design where a bigger gun replaces the smaller gun.
So i was simply like why not doing it the other way arround? Nashorn is deadly but when you need something closer to the front with some armor you need perhaps a tank will less gun but more armor. So thats why SE starts with a Big gun first before sacling up in armor. Def doc does it the other way arround.

7) Ain't agree with the removal of Tiger and KT from Panzer Support, many people do use them. Where did another 2 pzgrens upgrades go?

The boost near tanks is merged with the other one. Or at least i thought i would make it like that.
The cheaper inf is in my opinion not needed. I still hope to have PE Grens and heavy assault grens with 5 men squads in future if you read my gren topic.
As for Tigers and KT, i did not yet see any from that doc or only rarely and never managed to get one out by myself.

8) Panther by default is insanely OP in BK. I'd rather keep it behind CP with Maultier being CP free instead.

I know that Panther is afterall that kind of Uber Tank everyone runs for when he has the chance. But thats what keeps doctrines like TS and BK always sticking to the same path of unlocks. I would rather add some additional tec requirments. PE in vcoh for example required a large ammount of unlocks before they could get Panthers out.
Panthers would require additional upgrades in the support and jaeger command before being available.

Meanwhile Maultiers can be acquired so insanly fast. In HR games you build the necessary buildings right at start and two HQ upgrades late you have them on the field and laying waste over a large area. So against Panthers, you can prepare even when they are 0 CP units when having counters like fireflies available right away or anti tank mines and TD´s.

But against a Maultier there is little you can do since you just dont get the appropriate counters to kill them when they hit the field and a single salvo can destroy your entire early to mid game defense.

9) Wespe would be cool in Def instead of BK.

Perhaps, yeah. But as of now i found them a bit more fitting here currently. Its up to everyones personal preferation.



General Note on the Tank-inf balance before people start complaining about "OMG 0 CP Panther OP Holly shit Mother".
Other than that people have to consider that some of these things only make sense with a change of other aspects as well.
One thing for example is the issue with tanks in general. In many games you see more tanks than anything else. Sometimes even only tanks and repair units. The balance between tanks and inf is in my opinion in a complete disorder. Its pretty though work to make an infantry squad worth its money, esspecially when considering the long term reinforcing cost. Tanks on the other hand pay themselves off super fast with 1-2 shots. They kill a vehicle= payed themselvs off, esspecially when you produced your with mass production and the killed vehicle was a mortar halftrack or any halftrack. One HE shot blasting an inf squad= tank was worth its money spend. Kill one weapon crew and the tank payed itself off.

At that point i would also request to drop cost of weapon crews and reinforce cost of basic inf units like rifles and volks. One tanks come out they are barely worth to be fielded again.

And then there is the HE round issue. HE´s are kind of designed to always hit its mark blasting instantly 3-4 if not all 6 men. Thats sick.
I think the "payed single shot HE" is a big problem since it must hit its mark. Otherwise people would complain about it since they spend up to 50 ammo for it and more. It also enables tanks to fire AP and HE within 2-3 seconds. I tested it a couple of times. So within 5 seconds you can blast a tank or vehicle and an inf squad just like that....

As i already mentioned several times, i think the best way to bring the tank- inf balance back on track would be to increase tanks fuel cost. Ranging from 50 fuel for a stug or Panzer III to 120 fuel for a Panther. HE rounds will be equiped right away but the swap between AP and HE will take as long as a reload would take and longer. HE rounds would also not always be a dead shot. So sometimes they land off a bit and kill just one men and so on. Veterancy also seems to have no effect on current single shot HE effectivness unless its a perman ability.

So when people talk about "OMG Panther 0 CP= OP", well keep in mind that fielding larger tank forces will be more difficult. So getting lets say a Panther and a couple of stubby Panzer IV´s out will be much harder to achieve due to way higher fuel cost.
Swapping between HE and AP rounds will also take several seconds. The larger the gun the larger the ammount of time it takes. Hence, when engaging a unit lets say with an 101st squad and 3x RL and one Hellcat it wouldnt be possible to blast both units in a timeframe of just 5 seconds as it happens so often.

The accuracy of the HE´s will then also be dependent on the tank crews vet level rather than being almost always a dead-eye-shot forcing the enemie to retreat almost always.

Top mounted MG´s will also always be an upgrade that costs 75 ammo on tanks. That should make it also harder to get tanks shooting at all directions at once.

I still think some units should be behind CP to avoid other units getting obsolete.

Hmm. So while putting them behind CP they take away the CP that other units could use, hence preventing other units from even appearing in the game.
Also the current unlock system is basically making one unlock obsolete with another. Tank IV H unlock makes F2 obsolete, Panther unlock makes H obsolete.
Same goes for the enemies. 76 sherman and M10 unlock makes F2 Panzer IV osbolete, Panther makes those osbolete in some ways. So the current unlock system is not like one unlock builds up/supports and improves a previous unlock, it makes the previous one outright obsolete.

[Krieger Blitzer]

Wespe in Def is pointless, you already have 105mm howitzers. Grille fits perfectly in Def doc... And currently it's the only Axis unit that can match the CW Priest. (Hummels are waaaay too expensive on the other hand).

I also don't like the idea that 76 Sherman/Stugs/Pz4 or M10 would be CP free.. in particular the 76 Shermans are way too good (even more annoying than Stugs) to be CP free in all US docs.

Also, it's not true that u always have to unlock M10 to counter Stugs, because Zookas got buffed vs them and Stugs are generally less effective vs inf than 76 Shermans (turretless, no MG suppression & less mobility).
CW counters them very well using Cromwells as well.

And i agree with MEFISTO on Maultier, it shouldn't be a CP unlock.. neither should mortar HTs, as Sukin pointed out.

All in all, reworking doctrines like that over and over again would only bring more & more balance issues and bugs.. we are not shuffling Solitaire cards here, so i prefer no changes applied.. the current game-play is overall balanced & fun and we finally have a solid game... Thus, i stand with the opinion that no big changes are required anymore (except for bug fixes, tweaks & minor adjustments), i prefer more stability in life, than constant change.. not to mention Bk Mod is too old for this & how it's too much of workload on MarKr too.

Though, what the community needs to do really, is learning how to make new maps or revising existing ones.. that would be more interesting... i would make some more when i finish my studies.

[Consti255]

btw, a great idea of replaceing the smoke screen would be the 4,2 inch mortar.
After the addition of the mortar VP for canadians, it would make sense.


Yeah i know Tiger, but you can always set the 76 behind tiering.
Same as the Stug and other basic stuff. CP unlocks should be doc specific unlocks and not basic units that are available in every doc...
Those you can just sit behind tiering as i said.

[Warhawks97]

Wespe in Def is pointless, you already have 105mm howitzers. Grille fits perfectly in Def doc... And currently it's the only Axis unit that can match the CW Priest. (Hummels are waaaay too expensive on the other hand).

Firstly there doesnt need to be an exact match to priest in a doctrine that is artillery orientated overall. Also the Grille outmatches the Priest by miles. You get 4x150 mm Arty that delivers like twice the damage with huge accuracy. And the cooldown is just 40 secs. You recently uploaded a match with "cancer priest". Really? The Grille got the same ammount of kills as your priest. And i had two matches with def doc which i uploaded with each grille having over 180 inf kills and 11 tanks and other stuff. The Grille is essentially a modern Artillery such as the Panzerhaubitze 2000.

Its modern tec artillery that can shoot and scoot with devastating effect. And the funny part its actually not even an howitzer but an infantry assault gun. Its this tiny gun: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/15_cm_sIG_33
And this one beats every other artillery system in the game and matching the range of this one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/15_cm_sFH_18

I also don't like the idea that 76 Sherman/Stugs/Pz4 or M10 would be CP free.. in particular the 76 Shermans are way too good (even more annoying than Stugs) to be CP free in all US docs.

Name me one reason why. Because they are good? Yeah, thats why these units always gets unlocked first. And we are at the same repetetive cycle that i am talking about.

Also "good" is relative. If you have a Panzer IV or stug but no 76 sherman or M10, well, yes, then they are good. If the enemie decides to unlock M10 or sherman, things are balanced out again. On top of that yes, these units in particular ruin pretty much the game because they are so damn cheap (except panzer IV H). And the stubbies P IV and basic shermans, which are the main inf slaughter machines, do not require an unlock. So when "damn effective" means to set them behind a CP wall, well, then i suggest to put Basic Shermans, AA Tanks, Stubby Panzer IV, Panzer III and cromwells also behind a CP wall.
Do you like this more? So we end up with all doctrines consisting of 12 unlocks only for various tanks. I see how much fun this gonna be, right.

I would rather pay more fuel for each Tank and increase tec requirments in order reduce their overall number on the field. I didnt joke when i said that i had lots of games already where they were easily twice as many tanks on the field than infantry squad. If you only build Panzer IV F1, f2, J´s, stugs and PZ III, you can get such a huge ammount of tanks that every attempt to stop or to beat them with anything less than own tanks is kinda fruitless. 3 Players spamming cheap Tanks and there is nothing you can do about. Anti tank guns might kill one or so which is super fast replaced.

Also, it's not true that u always have to unlock M10 to counter Stugs, because Zookas got buffed vs them and Stugs are generally less effective vs inf than 76 Shermans (turretless, no MG suppression & less mobility).
CW counters them very well using Cromwells as well.

Yeah, stugs have only timed HE, MG42 by default and cost 350 MP by default. I wouldnt dare to rush any stug with any inf squad unless i have super beafy smoke using SAS.

And i agree with MEFISTO on Maultier, it shouldn't be a CP unlock.. neither should mortar HTs, as Sukin pointed out.

I would rather get Panzer IV´s for 0 CP and put maultier behind CP. Playing BK doc or against it is annoying as fuck. Spend 2 CP on stug, get Maultier and grind exp to get Panther. Thats in essence what BK doc is and thats why it is the most played doc. Seeing stormtroopers or stuhs is super rare. I think i never even faced stuhs a single time ever since the great doc rework. Why should anyone spend 5 CP on stuhs and 480 MP and he can easily get Maultier and spending these 5 CP towards Panther. People have to be stupid as fuck not to do that or simply risk happy.

All in all, reworking doctrines like that over and over again would only bring more & more balance issues and bugs.. we are not shuffling Solitaire cards here, so i prefer no changes applied.. the current game-play is overall balanced & fun and we finally have a solid game... Thus, i stand with the opinion that no big changes are required anymore (except for bug fixes, tweaks & minor adjustments), i prefer more stability in life, than constant change.. not to mention Bk Mod is too old for this & how it's too much of workload on MarKr too.

yeah, for you it might be balanced or in your opinion. You love the status quo since you rush heavy tanks all the time anyways. Rare examples are Priest or SAS.

Though, what the community needs to do really, is learning how to make new maps or revising existing ones.. that would be more interesting... i would make some more when i finish my studies.

I have tons of good maps by now. I dont even know where i got them all from. But the major issue remains: "CP Tank Rush" in all docs.

neither should mortar HTs, as Sukin pointed out.

Currently a Mortar HT costs 450 MP and drains fuel that you better spend for tanks. As WH i cant remember to have ever used a mortar HT in years. Why should I? I can use my infantry mortar well embeded between my other troops and either recrew them or hit retreat button when necessary.
Also its much easier and safer to get any kind of arty which cost a few cp but is cheaper and more effective and saver overall.
As US also get 81 mm inf mortar as inf doc or the air dropped one from AB for one CP.
Mortar HT´s can be usefull but most of the time a waste of res and and a target for pretty much everybody and everyone.

So my idea was to make them cost 1 CP but in turn get cheaper and much easier to acquire ressource wise with less tec required. Armor doc is the only one where i sometimes really wish to have an 81 mm mortar. But even there i prefer to get a tank asap and tank commander artillery. Its saver, cheaper and overall more cost effective.

Thats why i turned the mortar HT´s into doctrine specific units with an unlock but therefore cheap to get.

[Red]

I believe such a change would require major re-balancing, meaning likely changes to most units.

PS: In Bk and TS, I sometimes but not always follow this unlock pattern, depends on the map and the sectors I operate in

[MEFISTO]

Maoultier in my opinion have different role than stuh, Maoultier is more effective vs infantry or camouflage AT and stuh more effective vs emplacements. It doesn’t make sense to use a Maultier vs emplacements unless the emplacement is almost destroyed. Use the Maoultier cost 85 ammunition (not a joke) so it’s no worth to use it vs emplacements.
And yes I use the stuh when I am facing a camper player.

[MEFISTO]

ehh... If you compare that unit with mortar halftracks.... They cost nearly the same. If you compare it to pack howitzers.. ehh.. it blows them away by a mile.. 10 rockets with fire.. In my opinion its defnitly a unit which should stay behind CP. Also, you dont have to invest into P4s like now, so you have enough CP to spend for it.

You can't compare a Maultier with a mortar half-track, both have different roles, plus to use the Maultier you have to pay 85 ammunition.
When I talk about Allies cheap and efficient artillery advantage ( Rocket Launcher Jeep or 75mm M1A1 Pack Howitzer) is because sometimes it takes a lot of effort as Axis to have any artillery support. Luftwaffe has no artillery support at all, just LeIG-18 Infantry Gun after some cp unlock and a 75 ammunition cost and some MP investment, it is ridiculous. Panzer support has no artillery support, just a low range matter barrage, and an expensive Wespe after 8 cp unlock or an expensive 4 cp off-map artillery PIV.

[Consti255]

ehh... If you compare that unit with mortar halftracks.... They cost nearly the same. If you compare it to pack howitzers.. ehh.. it blows them away by a mile.. 10 rockets with fire.. In my opinion its defnitly a unit which should stay behind CP. Also, you dont have to invest into P4s like now, so you have enough CP to spend for it.

You can't compare a Maultier with a mortar half-track, both have different roles, plus to use the Maultier you have to pay 85 ammunition.
When I talk about Allies cheap and efficient artillery advantage ( Rocket Launcher Jeep or 75mm M1A1 Pack Howitzer) is because sometimes it takes a lot of effort as Axis to have any artillery support. Luftwaffe has no artillery support at all, just LeIG-18 Infantry Gun after some cp unlock and a 75 ammunition cost and some MP investment, it is ridiculous. Panzer support has no artillery support, just a low range matter barrage, and an expensive Wespe after 8 cp unlock or an expensive 4 cp off-map artillery PIV.

1.
a maultier is super good vs emplacements.
10 rockets for 85ammo and they leave behind fire.
When one rocket out of 10 its directly, the emplacement is gone.


And ey Mefisto you know why some Axis docs dont have arty?
They DO have arty! But lets take PS as you mentioned as an example, you have the wespe but you know why i comes so late?
Because you have to spend every game your CP on these damn boring tank unlocks.

Your post even support our suggestion.

Make basic tanks CP less and put arty behind CP.
You have more freedom to spend your CP on stuff you need except this repetitive unlocks which delays the doc you picked from beeing the doc it supposed to be.