Volkssturm Debate

[Warhawks97]

This topic is based on the latest debate about VSturm here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=3615&start=25


The question is: Should Vsturm go to def doc while Prop gets back its Grenadiers but perhaps somewhat weaker than they used to be?


Prop doc:
Prop doc was in theory designed to have weak inf that is compensated by Heavy Tanks and debuffs on enemies. However the doctrine is probably the least played one and if, then only as Heavy Tank doctrine.

Personally i think this doc has its flaws. I do not belong to those who rush for Tigers. I never ever managed to get one even. My Personal style usually is or was to put up pressure in the early game with masses of inf. However, this early push style tactics quickly loses momentum as enemie gets inf and vehicles on his side at which point this doctrine feels more like a "camp it out" doctrine or "camp and bomb" doctrine. Generally it turns into a support style of doctrine similiar to SE providing sector abilities and artillery support and first at the very very late stage showing up with some armor.

The other way is, and thats what most players do, is to play it as an Tiger doctrine. Literally camping it out, score CP with nebelwerfer and get Tigers asap. Thats probably the savest way to play it i assume. Spending a lot of CP into infantry early on puts you in a dire situation in the mid to late game with little or weak armor support. A Single Stuv IV is costing quite a lot and generally just helps you to survive. But any offensive move from that moment on is only possible with friendly help or Tigers with their full buffs.

I have been watching a lot of streams of players who frequently play this doctrine. And so far i saw to ways of playing this doc. The first is spam Vsturm and 20 mm cars for max pressure in the early game. However throughout mid to late game the gains made early on got lost relatively quickly untill it was only all about defending and throwing propaganda at your enemie.
The inf alone can barely mount any effective attack with two MP40 and low health.


The second and most common way is to play it just like it is any other doc. Volkgren, Pumas, rocket arty and then waiting for Tanks. But that has barely anything to do with this doctrine.


My Suggestion here is to add Grenadiers back to this doctrine which overall keeps its Propaganda design. The Grenadiers would be able to utilize MP40s and Flamethrowers as well as Flamegrenades and Assault Ability that makes them throw several grenades after certain unlocks have been done in the tec tree.



Def doc:

My main issue with def doc is usually the lack of sufficient inf to protect my vulnerable Tank destroyers and other assets or to simply fill the lines with buffer units. When i get a bunch of grens it gets really hard to also get some decent TD on the field. The other way arround i have perhaps one or two inf squads having to guard and man TD´s, Bunkers and trenches.

I think in this doc having some sort of cheap reserve units that are good enough for basic defensive units would be a great help.
The Vsturm could fit here pretty well when it could also construct wire and trenches.
Volksgren as well as Vsturm would get Panzerfausts by default by unlocking the infantry branch in the Tec-Tree.

[Sukin-kot (SVT)]

In Def doc with G43 upgrade they would fit way better indeed.

[MarKr]

OMG this is like talking to a wall.

Vsturms are weak intentionally. Putting them to the def doc with the def bonuses and even with upgrades such as G43 it is like saying "They are intentionally weak but not really because they can survive almost anything with cover bonuses and they also start to perform quite well with the weapons." Then their cost won't be justified and will have to go up, their build time won't be justified and will have to go up and overall, they will be just Volksgrens.

In the mean time adding Grenadiers to Propaganda doc will turn it flat out OP because Grens + passive buffs from unlocks + active debuffs on enemies + support from tanks/arty you have at disposal = a doc that has everything strong and no downside. Yes, many people would fight with the pure combat strength of available units because they are not used to actively use the debuff abilities but those who use them will stealroll everything. Which would in turn mean that we cannot "just replace Vsturms with Grens" but we would need to rebalance the whole doctrine and change some unlocks for who knows what which I'm not gonna do just because majority of people dislikes the idea that Axis in ONE doctrine don't go with the played out "fewer but higher quality" stereotype.

If you want to use Tigers and KTs with better infantry, play TS doc. But I'm not changing a high-skill-high-reward doctrine that WORKS just because most people don't wanna change their general playstyle.

This is non-negotiable.