WH command vehicle

[Krieger Blitzer]

Unlike CW command tank, Both US & WH command vehicles provide no +5 range boost.. which is fine.

US & WH command vehicles both provide same abilities though.. yet, US gets easier access to them since it's a cheap command car, whereas the WH command vehicle (Pz4 currently) is useless because it's expensive Pz4 with less capabilities.

Therefore; i suggest to change WH command tank into a Halftrack.

[modmacbryanicky]

I Agree!

Sdkfz 250 with the Radar Antennae

[Sukin-kot (SVT)]

How about changing them both in terms of performance?

I haven’t seen either of them in 2021.

Could someone please update me on which bonuses they provide atm?

[MarKr]

The PIV is more expensive because it has PIV armor and 75mm L48 gun so it is more sturdy and has waaay better firepower.
The bonuses are quite substantial too. The attack aura makes your tanks pretty much sure to hit and "activates" a slightly weaker version of AP ammo on them. Recon gives you more sight and range and if we consider that people often argue here that "+5 range is a huge advantage" then even temporal +10 should be pretty potent.

Could someone please update me on which bonuses they provide atm?

viewtopic.php?f=32&t=1848
PIV has the same bonuses as the US M20.

[Krieger Blitzer]

The PIV is more expensive because it has PIV armor and 75mm L48 gun so it is more sturdy and has waaay better firepower.
The bonuses are quite substantial too. The attack aura makes your tanks pretty much sure to hit and "activates" a slightly weaker version of AP ammo on them. Recon gives you more sight and range and if we consider that people often argue here that "+5 range is a huge advantage" then even temporal +10 should be pretty potent.

Could someone please update me on which bonuses they provide atm?

viewtopic.php?f=32&t=1848
PIV has the same bonuses as the US M20.

Does the recon ability really gives you range bonus for the duration of the ability? Or just sight bonus?
Also, i think the command Pz4 is weaker than regular Pz4s, as it has slower reload and less accuracy i think.. and without HE if i am not wrong.

Generally, a command vehicle shouldn't be sturdy.. it's expected to buff other units so it should be cheap, and has no firepower in my opinion.

[MEFISTO]

Yes PIV commander is really expensive, I don't use it often because of that.

[Warhawks97]

Range boost was removed from recon boost.

[MarKr]

Does the recon ability really gives you range bonus for the duration of the ability? Or just sight bonus?
Also, i think the command Pz4 is weaker than regular Pz4s, as it has slower reload and less accuracy i think.. and without HE if i am not wrong.

Generally, a command vehicle shouldn't be sturdy.. it's expected to buff other units so it should be cheap, and has no firepower in my opinion.

OK, I'm back at my PC to check the stuff.
The bonuses were changed some time ago:
Attack boost:
+20% speed
+50% accuracy to main gun

Recon bonus:
Sight range +10
Units can spot enemy vehicles/tanks in FoW

Anyway "shouldn't be sturdy" is really a question of preference because the US command vehicle has been in the game for years and I remember some time ago when we asked why people didn't use it more, they most often said that it required too much micro and was too squishy. Is it really better if you have a command vehicle that can be one-shot even by 37mm AT guns if you don't baby sit it all the time?

And also yes, the command tank doesn't have AP nor HE abilities and has longer reloads but it is still a 75mm gun that can contribute to the fighting because even with lower reload speeds it is still one more AT gun shooting at the enemy.

[Krieger Blitzer]

Ya, i think the reason people didn't like to use US command car is due to the way how it works in comparison to the CW command tank.. what i mean is, the CW command tank has zero firepower but everyone is comfortable using it because it provides constant boost to tanks nearby (including +5 range) as they don't need to keep using abilities.. not to mention (as far as i can remember) the aura radius for the US command vehicle was also shorter than CW command tank, but it was increased to around 55 if i am not mistaken... So, that was mainly the reason why some people complained about it, rather than being squishy from what i can recall.

All in all, i would honestly prefer if all command vehicles work same way as CW command tank.. but either way, even if they are never changed and remain with abilities; in both scenarios i would prefer the WH command tank to be converted into a halftrack.. and if both US command vehicle & WH one would be ever made similar to CW command tank, then i would eventually suggest to move the WH command vehicle exclusively to Panzer Support doctrine as a result.

[Warhawks97]

Thing is the super short command range. It often causes huge chaos, esspecially when suddenly new threats emerge or when you have to react to something. Generally i would prefer mobility paired with command range for reasonable cost. People dont use the command car because they can just as well bring one more tank and thus barrel into the fight. The command vehicle gets generally only used in conjunction with some sort of expensive powerfull unit in order to get the most of it. The amplifier effect there is much greater than it is to boost tiny guns. Generally i would prefer passive slight passive boosts that dont make you pay extra everytime you want something out of it while having perhaps a few additional abilities like infantry officers have it.

[MEFISTO]

What if we make the unit even more useful?
Like increasing the aura range to the whole sector where the tank commander is?, also we can provide this commanders with some useful abilities like air recon, or 105 mm off map artillery
Or mortar barrage?
I still prefer the tank commander for bk since half truck is not as fast as US commander vehicle or CW command tank, at least PIV comman tank is slow but has a bit of armor to escape.
I still think PIV commander could be a bit cheaper like 50 fuel.

[Krieger Blitzer]

I still prefer the tank commander for bk since half truck is not as fast as US commander vehicle or CW command tank, at least PIV comman tank is slow but has a bit of armor to escape.
I still think PIV commander could be a bit cheaper like 50 fuel.

If halftrack won't be fast enough, it can become a Puma.

[Warhawks97]

Puma didn't exist as command vehicle. SDKFZ 222 and Halftracks did exist as command vehicles. As command aura would grow I think they would be sufficient.

[Sukin-kot (SVT)]

Does the recon ability really gives you range bonus for the duration of the ability? Or just sight bonus?
Also, i think the command Pz4 is weaker than regular Pz4s, as it has slower reload and less accuracy i think.. and without HE if i am not wrong.

Generally, a command vehicle shouldn't be sturdy.. it's expected to buff other units so it should be cheap, and has no firepower in my opinion.

OK, I'm back at my PC to check the stuff.
The bonuses were changed some time ago:
Attack boost:
+20% speed
+50% accuracy to main gun

Recon bonus:
Sight range +10
Units can spot enemy vehicles/tanks in FoW

Anyway "shouldn't be sturdy" is really a question of preference because the US command vehicle has been in the game for years and I remember some time ago when we asked why people didn't use it more, they most often said that it required too much micro and was too squishy. Is it really better if you have a command vehicle that can be one-shot even by 37mm AT guns if you don't baby sit it all the time?

And also yes, the command tank doesn't have AP nor HE abilities and has longer reloads but it is still a 75mm gun that can contribute to the fighting because even with lower reload speeds it is still one more AT gun shooting at the enemy.

Those abilities are pretty crappy and do not worth it IMO. Especially given that reasons that Hawks provided.

[Krieger Blitzer]

Agreed, prefer them to be as CW command tank.. and WH command tank converted to halftrack and moved to Panzer Support doc.

[Warhawks97]

Maybe i just put down some suggestions. I wouldnt even mind when a doctrine has command vehicles and Tanks at the same time, just when one is build, you cant build another.

The passive boosts would be applied in a range of up to 60 given the fact that tanks usually need some space to maneuver and blobbing them makes little sense (quite a handycap actually).

It would boost accuracy, sight range, reload slightly the gun range of tanks. Vet is gained just as with any other command unit which improves these buffs.


As abilties there would be some factional/doctrinal stuff. Like a short arty strike, smoke drop and so on.
Also abilties like ordering tanks to do certain things. Like tactical advance which slows the speed of tanks but in return makes them more accurate on the move. Another one would be to order the tanks to speed up the rate of fire in exchange for less accuracy. Usefull perhaps in a defensive against many targets. When the abilities ends, the crews affected by it would be exhausted.
Also abilties like "Call out target" (sounds better than "Mark target") which improves accuracy against a a certain unit.



So in short:
Slight Passive boosts that improve with the command vehicles veterancy:
- Accuracy
- Sight Range
- Gun Range
- Artillery strikes can be called in only when in range of the command unit.


Active abilities for the unit itself:
- Call in smoke drop
- Call in short arty strikes
- (Recon planes?)
- Call out a Target (Mark target essentially)
- Stationary mode: The vehicle goes into a stationary mode while its AoE is increased from 55 to 80 range.


Active abilities for nearby units:
- Fast Attack mode: Nearby Tanks and vehicles will move and reload faster for the next 30 seconds but shoot somewhat less accurate. When the ability ends, units affected by it will be exhausted.

- Toggle Recon mode/Steady advance mode: Vehicles and Tanks will drive a bit slower but have increased sight range and lose less accuracy on the move.

- Accurate shooting mode: Orders Tank crews to shoot more accurate but less fast for a certain duration (30 seconds). Gun range is increased.



Command Vehicles will be available to all factions and doctrines. But depending on faction and doctrine will have different abilities.
Tank commanders are being removed. Why? I prefer to have a command style for vehicles similiar to infantry for various reasons:

1. The new command vehicle buffs along with unit vet buffs and commander vet buffs will turn tanks into ultimate killing machines with insane rate of fire and accuracy.

2. Every Tank has a Tank commander by default basically that vets up with its crew. In BK however the unit vet and commander vet amplify each other to a degree where certain tanks quite turn into God like units. Add to this abilities like fast reload, ALRS etc. Thats just insane sometimes.

3. The way Tank commander work doesnt add any micro. Anytime you want command boosts for your infantry means additional micro. Just for Tanks it doesnt add any micro while adding massive power to the unit.

4. Many times when a vet tank gets killed and the tank commander dies, too, the game is lost when your enemie still has his mega tank with a Wittmann alive. Losing a vet tank wouldnt mean the end of the day as long as you managed to keep your command unit alive (or vise versa).



In general this means that removing the Tank commanders from the game and instead adding command vehicles, just as it is with infantry gameplay, would in my opinion improve the overall tank gameplay for BK.

[Krieger Blitzer]

Nice brainstorming.. but i didn't create this topic with the intent for any overhaul changes to command vehicles.. i just wanted WH one to become a halftrack, and possibly (along with US command car) they could work same as CW command tank.. but that's fine if not.

And definitely against removing Tank Commanders.

[MEFISTO]

Yes I would like to keep tank commander also, still I would like to see more abilities in this commands vehicle.

[Warhawks97]

Thing is we are going to get super tanks on steroid. Tanks like Panther or Tiger with vet, vet command unit, vet commander, vet abilities, command unit abilities.....where will it end? A Panther shooting every 2 seconds with all boosts applied (passive and active)??

[Walderschmidt]

Why not make a command tank range to be the size of the sector?

Wald

[Krieger Blitzer]

Thing is we are going to get super tanks on steroid. Tanks like Panther or Tiger with vet, vet command unit, vet commander, vet abilities, command unit abilities.....where will it end? A Panther shooting every 2 seconds with all boosts applied (passive and active)??

if they would work similar to CW command tank, and just that then both US Armor and PE Panzer Support would have the same thing and without many abilities to fiddle with here and there.. so everything would be fine then, i guess.

[Warhawks97]

Why not make a command tank range to be the size of the sector?

Wald

Because imagine one large territory bordering a smaller one. The guy on the large can boost all his tanks in a large territory, while the others have issues affecting just one. It works with defensive orientated officers that boost everything in a sector.

[MarKr]

We're going to try the passive aura approach. WM keeps the tank, US keeps the M20. Both of these and also CW command tank will provide:
- basic aura gives to vehicles in range of 65: +5 vision range, +2.5 weapon range and +5% accuracy
- at Vet2 the aura gives additional +5 vision range, +2.5 weapon range and weapons reload 15% faster (reload speed does NOT stack with reload speed bonus of Blitzkrieg ability)
M20 will also get the ability to drop smoke into an area. The activated "boost" abilities of M20 and PIV will be removed. No Air recon or other fancy stuff.
Command aura radius set for all command vehicles to 65 range (CW command tank used to have 40).

[Krieger Blitzer]

We're going to try the passive aura approach. WM keeps the tank, US keeps the M20. Both of these and also CW command tank will provide:
- basic aura gives to vehicles in range of 65: +5 vision range, +2.5 weapon range and +5% accuracy
- at Vet2 the aura gives additional +5 vision range, +2.5 weapon range and weapons reload 15% faster (reload speed does NOT stack with reload speed bonus of Blitzkrieg ability)
M20 will also get the ability to drop smoke into an area. The activated "boost" abilities of M20 and PIV will be removed. No Air recon or other fancy stuff.
Command aura radius set for all command vehicles to 65 range (CW command tank used to have 40).

Sounds cool, worth a try

[Red]

I agree, I like the proposal!

Will the bonuses stack with the tank commander's ones?
Will there be any changes to the PE Tank Support command tank?

For WM Blitzkrieg, will the Panzer IV price reduction CP unlock also affect the Panzer IV command tank?

Thanks!