Def Doc Improvement - Upgrading the JP IV/(A) & Infantry

[Red]

Dear Blitzkriegers,

I would like to propose some buffs to the Def doc, as currently I believe it does not have the offensive capability it needs in 1 to 1 engagements.
As some might have noticed, I am a proponent of bringing the Elephant back to def doc, but after giving it some more thought, I believe there is another way to buff Def Doc that would not involve a unit swap. This idea mainly revolves around the Jagdpanzer IV/(A) and the infantry.

I would like to propose the following buffs (and they are just that) for the Jagdpanzer IV/(A):

• Add the MG42 it is so desperately missing

• Add the same stationary firing position as the StuG have

• Add a single shot HE ability

These changes basically would turn the Jagdpanzer IV/(A) in a stronger StuG and provide some much needed capabilities for Def Doc.

Then there is the infantry, there I would propose the following buffs:

• Increase the Officer from one man to a 3 men squad. The single officer just dies to quickly in an engagement to provide solid support and gain veterancy.

• Increase the elite-factor of the Grenadiers by one. As far as I know, that was already there in the last Beta, but then somehow it was decided to downgrade them. Currently even with experience, they just become suppressed too easily to be really useful in later game offensive engagements (even with all CPs unlocked). A direct buff to anti-suppression would of course also be possible, but I am not sure, if this would not make them OP in early game.

• Give one of the tanks a reinforce infantry ability. The halftrack is too fragile for the frontline, and building bunkers all along the way to reenforce your troops not only is quite expensive, but also difficult to do under fire (and expensive in terms of ammo, moving the retreat point each time).

So overall, the offense of the Def Doc apart from artillery (which does not take territory) would revolve much around infantry and JP IV/(A).

Historical blabla:
According to my reading, the Jagdpanzer IV/(A) was used quite differently than the Jagdpanzer IV/(V). The A-version was used a a direct replacement for Panzer VI as well as a replacement for StuGs, and not as a Jagdpanzer. This was actually what made me think about making the JP IV/(A) StuG-like. And regarding the MG 42, that would also be historically accurate. (On a side note, the Nashorn also had an MG 34, which I believe currently is not there, either. )

Happy to get your views, especially if some combinations of the proposed might be overpowered!

[Consti255]

Mhh not sure about this one.
The Jagdpanzer changes are possible but i am highly against single shot HE on TDs in general. Camo plus HE is so anoying to face. Handheld AT shoul be the counter to them and not getting wiped by a HE shot with camo accuracy.

Grenadiers shouldnt get any buff what so ever. When unlocking the def cover CP unlock, they are absolutely insane in green cover and they just dont die or getting supressed. There Weapon kits can go also absolut wild with mgs, g43 and shreks.
While useing them you should just send them from green to green cover.

The reinforcement should work with med bunkers iirc. So there is no change needed imo.

[Warhawks97]

I think that would be crazy. A TD with panther gun, good front armor and able to act like a stug vs inf.
The Grens are also pretty good with all inf unlocks as long as you stay in cover.


About the historical stuff:
All JP IV´s got used in an assault gun role. Actually Guderian never wanted the JP IV since he considered stugs to be good enough in the anti tank role while being cheaper to build.

The reason A and V exists is because A was build by Alkett as a stop gap untill Vomag could produce the real version. The A Variant from def doc had been build in very low numbers only. 276 Got build (thats less than Jagdpanthers).

[kwok]

I’ll be honest… I cringed a bit when I read DEFENSE doc needs more OFFENSE capability. That’s the thing about def doc… it’s meant to be defensive. Adding any more ability to go offensive especially with existing units changes defense doc to unstoppable tsunami doctrine. Assuming the suggested changes work exactly as it was described, it would mean that defense doc playstyle would literally be slow right clicks until at enemy base.
The skill intended for def doc to work is via indirect drain and attrition for the lower skilled players or counter attack and map control for higher skilled players.

If you have trouble attacking with def doc my suggestion is don’t. The base way to play def doc is to creep once the air clears. Win engagements on your land, recover faster than your opponent, take land while your opponent recovers.
If you want to attack more, then play another doctrine literally designed to do that (blitz doc). When we say we try to build doctrines to be well rounded it means that all doctrines have a way of handling any situation. Not that every doctrine can be played in any style.

[Red]

My understanding was that the official goal of the mod is that every doc should be viable 1 on 1. And currently for Def doc, that simply is not the case. So I am somewhat surprised that for Def Doc the 1 on 1 balancing seems not to apply.

Regarding the grenardiers, I agree that they are good when in cover, but in order to advance I need them to move, and that's where they are struggelling mightily. Maybe some kind of anti-suppression ability might also work, just to be able to move them under fire (I think the Para-Officer has something like that?)?

On a smaller map, the Med Bunker works well to reinforce, but on an XL-map, it is very resource intensive to build many, and the real pain is that you can only have the retreat point set at one. Which makes me think...maybe a "retreat to nearest med bunker" button could do the trick?

With regard to HE, if I am not mistaken the Hellcat also is HE capable as well as camo-able. StuGs also can camo and fire HE. So it is not like this is something new...


----------------------------------------------
Historical things:
At least according to the Encyclopedia of the German panzers, the Panzer IV/70 (V) was used as a tank hunter (in so called Panzerjägerabteilungen), while the Panzer IV/70 (A) was not, so there seemed to be a distinct difference in the use of the A-version compared to the V-version. Which for me totally makes sense, because the A version is just too bulky to hide well. Also the A-version can better mix ammo because it had more room to store it (as well as more fuel).
Lastly, both the A and the V version were produced from August 1944 to March 1945, so they were fielded in parallel, but in different roles, as elaborated.

[Warhawks97]

Add stug III then.


Te IV/A and V had the same roles. It was just a different construction ideas. The A was supposed to be easier to produce. However at the end production ran only till january or february 45 and one last was build in march. The V was used in assault gun roles just as often as the A.

[Consti255]

I dont know how often Kwok played a 1v1 and safed the replay to show people that def doc is more than viable in a 1v1.

giving grenadiers the ability to sprint from green cover to green cover without getting suppressed and combined with the cover bonuses would be kinda hyper op. They can clear mgs almost instantly with their frag grenades.

As kwok said, def doc is ment to win the attrition war in draining ammo and fuel with emplacements/ TD and MP with Arty.
To finish the player with stubbys and grenadiers.
Winning ground with def doc is super strong since you can make it 10 times harder to take it back for the enemy. It often ends in a 1v1 scenario where TDs are surrounding the enemy HQ with a agressive camping playstyle.

That beeing sad to HE and i was always pushing to remove it from TDs in a whole.

[Consti255]

Add stug III then.


Te IV/A and V had the same roles. It was just a different construction ideas. The A was supposed to be easier to produce. However at the end production ran only till january or february 45 and one last was build in march. The V was used in assault gun roles just as often as the A.

Perhabs making the Stug III a reward unit between the Jagdpanzer 4 A .
So you could get the camoed and Heat JP or the Stug 3 with HE.

Still i dont think it would be that necessary.

[Red]

Add stug III then.

Perhabs making the Stug III a reward unit between the Jagdpanzer 4 A .
So you could get the camoed and Heat JP or the Stug 3 with HE.

Still i dont think it would be that necessary.

I would be very happy with such a choice (basically trading the smaller Jagdpanzer for a StuG when not playing in a big group), so from my perspective it is a very good idea.


Any thoughts on my suggestion to make the officer a squad of 3?

[Consti255]

in my opinion 3 men squads should be the way to go