Swap NK IV with MK VI in RA

[Consti255]

as the topic says, the MK IV should be swap out for the MK VI.

Why ?
as i explain already in this topic : viewtopic.php?f=27&t=4462&p=40169#p40169
RA REALLY lacks the ability to finish a game early into the game without baseboming.
More details are in the post..

Also, the MK IV is basicly just a AT churchill with a poopy 57mm gun. It has 0 HE and also its armor is tough, but still gets penned pretty often by 75mm guns from axis. So you basicly get a 57mm AT gun on a beefy chasis, but do you even need that? Tbh, no. You rather sit behind 17 pounders and Fireflys for AT capabilitys and they are WAY better than this Churchill.
The Churchill is really really expensive CP wise and you pay 3 CP for such unit, while you get 2 76 shermans and the ability to build the Firefly for 4 CP.
So the MK IV honestly never gets build because the gun is not needed in this Doc or even worth the CP cost.

So just replace the unlock with the mark VI chruchill which got the ability to actually push alongside a creeping barrage or 25. pounder barrages and do something with its HE in terms of base damage or backline damage for 3 CP. Lock it behind the command tank tier and you are good to go.

[Sukin-kot (SVT)]

Agreed, 57mm Churchill for 3 CP is crap.

[Red]

I believe it would do little harm if the Churchill MK IV and VI would be unlocked for the 3CP, but as written in the other thread, with the perma HE being added to the Canadian Sherman, I see the gameplay need of the Canadian Artillery in terms of a tank with HE that deserves the name covered.

[Consti255]

jup.
its fine with the new sherman HE, but i would still prefer the MK VI change over the sherman one.
I know its critic on a high level since we recently got the beta with the new sherman, but i would still consider that a churchill mark IV for 3 CP is overpriced as s*** and the mark VI would fitting the new canadian doc name even more and is worth the 3 CP.
You got absolutely no reason to build that thing over a firefly or 17 pounder and you need to compare them because it is a AT only tank with a terrible gun at this point of the game where you can deploy it with Canadian.
It can be powerful with RE when rushing since you dont need the command tank and it is just 1 CP iirc.

As for the MK 4 and MK 6 unlock, you have to consider that it is a solo standing 3 CP unlock without a path or any benefit before like the churchill path in RE with AVREs or such units. So you have to pay right on 3 CP into a unlock which basicly just gives you that unit.

[kwok]

The original intent of the damage sponge with AT originally was exactly that. Former RA had plenty of anti inf and emplacement options. Giving it a thiccc anti inf/emplacement tank would be an over abundance of capability and make it become specialized again. Imagine what would a doctrine like Luft do against RA doc. The meta for RA would be so easy whereas Luft would be a single option: rush panthers.
What RA lacked was a way to push against camping armor, thing like stug, hetzer, JP spam. Imagine facing that as former RA doc. What would be the option? Fireflies would get one shorted by camo TD’s and get effectively traded no and fuel even if the player got lucky and killed the TD. The churchill with the 6 pdr allows you to push a position defended by tanks in a slow creep away, relying on artillery to pave the path from soft target threats. Given the name was formerly royal ARTILLERY that was the encouraged play style: to play around artillery.

This is what prompted the change in doctrine by the way. It felt too restricting to justify changes while keeping the namesake. Changing the name should open up more creative opportunities to tweak the doctrine. For now, the 6pdr is justified over the HE to ensure combined arms is the most viable strategy rather than trying to Rock Paper Scissors a unit type against defenses. There’s ways to crack a base with things other than arty now, let’s make that still a slight challenge rather than just walking an early available heavy tank in.

Just copying a post.

The 3 cp unlock is there because many test games have shown that a 2cp unlock churchill of any variant is like a magnet for rush build orders and completely removes medium tanks as a viable strat for axis. 3 cp forces players to learn decision making, timing, and a little psychology when selecting doctrine choices.

Here’s things that 3Cp counters relative to other doctrines:
Makes the stug unlocks worthless (negates 1-2 CP depending on doctrine)
Makes blitz doc medium tank unlocks worthless (2-5 CP depending on level of investment)
Forces 88mm capability rushing and committing an opponent into a predictable strategy (for example, force Luft into committing 5CP into Panthers/tigers while your Canadian infantry build vet to counter late fallsj/volkssturm)

For other doctrines… yeah I can see Churchill’s not being a desirable path but damn… if I went against a def doc you best bet I’m going to choose to bomb them back to the Stone Age rather than trying to ram a churchill into their defenses.
If I’m facing panzer support, my strat changes entirely to a manpower attrition war. They can’t make tanks if they’re too busy reinforcing and buffing their infantry.

[Consti255]

I get your point kwok and they are true. But StuGs? Camoed Stugs and Hetzers,Marders, Jagdpanzer pen the Mk IV and MK VI pretty reliable. Also AP shots aswell from 75mm. Also the pushing power is pretty limited with the MK IV.

What about redesigning the Tank unlock path from Canadians in a whole? 2 CP 76mm --> 2/3 CP into MK VI churchills --> 1 CP Fireflys.

The 1/2 CP more can be given to other doc unlocks to buff them and give them more impact.
Examples:

Arty spotter vision upgrade goes from 1 to 2 CP : more vision or more range for the off map strike for spotter/Leut/captains.
Canadians upgrade from 1 to 2 CP: add the marksman ability for them aswell.

any other ideas?
when playing RA/canadians i almost felt like the CP unlocks arent as important as in other docs since your unit roster as whole is crazy strong.
Giving more cost therefor a little more impact to them, could lead into more important decision in terms of unlocks and playstyles.