Forgotten units

[Sukin-kot (SVT)]

I would like to list here the units that are highly underused due to their availability limitations or doctrinal misplacement. Most of them are good on their own, but it is simply not worth it or too difficult to get them. This is a shame as they are great and fun units. Take into account that I have almost never seen those units since the new BK came out.

1) Wespe in TS doc - comes too late and doesn't make sense strategy-wise. Tank doctrine needs an arty unit that can quickly take out a defensive position in order to keep the tanks advancing.

Solution - swap back Hotchkiss with Wespe, limit it to 1 for the same amount of CP.

2) Gebirgs - as stated in the other topic, they aren't worth it when there is no air reinforcement + their boosts are locked behind the reg.5 which are just as good.

They could go to the defensive doctrine as an elite version of Grens on steroids, would fit the doctrine theme perfectly. Or make them paradropped and unlockable in the infantry branch of the Luft doc.

3) Scott in the infantry doc - there are so many ways to deal with emplacements in this doc (rangers, howitzers, priests, call in arty) that Scott is an overkill. On the other hand RAF often struggles against heavy defences, what if Scott will go to the RAF heavy glider?

4) Jagdtiger\Kingtiger in the TS doc - those are just so expensive for the doctrine that doesn't have any economy boost abilities. You either get them as a meme unit when you already won, or you save to much res loosing the upper hand and the game eventually? How about making them call in units? It will also distinguish TS more from the Propohanda doctrine.

5) Sabotage stormtroopers - too much CP for a tiny squad with quite limited capabilities. I think they should be available with the Storms unlock and be able to crawl by default.

6) Booby traps for SE - 2 CP is too much. I remember very well that they used to be 1 CP, that offered a great utility when you could put an early pressure and charge tactically important points. Imo should be 1 CP once again.

7) Mortar Bunker - useless since the mortar is not functioning. In the other topic MarkR mentioned that otherwise it would be an easy win if you build the bunker in the 120 range of your enemy's base. Well, I haven't experienced this problem in the old BK. Moreover, if the enemy lets you to build a 5 CP bunker that close to their base the game is pretty much lost for him. On top of that, I think that long construction time with expensive engineers justifies the efficiency of the bunker.

8) 76mm Jumbo - as it has been discussed, strategically it is a bad choice to go for Jumbo over Jackson. In that case, you put aside the only unit that is able to cause decent damage to Axis heavies.

9) Armor doc command car and BK doc command tank. I have never seen either of them. What are their current abilities and stats? Probably they can be cheaper\earlier available.

10) Churchill in the royal Arty doc - a joke for 3 CP, it is never worth it. Should be swapped for Achilles.

11) Commando with Sten and Enfields - royal marines and SAS combined with normal rifle sections completely steal their role. There must be at least a single reason to prefer them over the aforementioned units. I think at least their reinforcement cost and time must go down significantly.

[MarKr]

1) Wespe in TS doc - comes too late and doesn't make sense strategy-wise. Tank doctrine needs an arty unit that can quickly take out a defensive position in order to keep the tanks advancing.

Solution - swap back Hotchkiss with Wespe, limit it to 1 for the same amount of CP.

And we would be back at "never use hummel because Wespe can do too for less ammo". No on this one at least from me.

2) Gebirgs - as stated in the other topic, they aren't worth it when there is no air reinforcement + their boosts are locked behind the reg.5 which are just as good.

They could go to the defensive doctrine as an elite version of Grens on steroids, would fit the doctrine theme perfectly. Or make them paradropped and unlockable in the infantry branch of the Luft doc.

I asnwered this in the topic so I'll let the discussion going there but in def doc infantry already gets passively the bonuses in cover so normal Grens (when in cover) are very good infantry already. Giving Gebirgs to Def doc where they could also benefit from the global doctrinal abilities and additional bonuses from commander would make them unkillable when in own teritorry. So I am against moving them to Def doc too.

3) Scott in the infantry doc - there are so many ways to deal with emplacements in this doc (rangers, howitzers, priests, call in arty) that Scott is an overkill. On the other hand RAF often struggles against heavy defences, what if Scott will go to the RAF heavy glider?

Many ways but Scott doesn't cost you any ammo and in the beta Scott has been changed to also be more accurate against infantry so you can use it as a dedicated anti-infantry unit instead of Shermans that require to pay ammo for the HE upgrade first. Also RAF has in its glider the "field gun" that has more range than most emplacements and has very good damage against them.

4) Jagdtiger\Kingtiger in the TS doc - those are just so expensive for the doctrine that doesn't have any economy boost abilities. You either get them as a meme unit when you already won, or you save to much res loosing the upper hand and the game eventually? How about making them call in units? It will also distinguish TS more from the Propohanda doctrine.

I also mentioned before that the need for careful resource management is the intended downside of this doctrine. You can get very strong units but usually not very many of them. It is part of how the doctrine works.

5) Sabotage stormtroopers - too much CP for a tiny squad with quite limited capabilities. I think they should be available with the Storms unlock and be able to crawl by default.

They can crawl by default. If they get unlocked with the halftrack, what will take their place in the unlock tree?

6) Booby traps for SE - 2 CP is too much. I remember very well that they used to be 1 CP, that offered a great utility when you could put an early pressure and charge tactically important points. Imo should be 1 CP once again.

Where should the one CP point be moved?

7) Mortar Bunker - useless since the mortar is not functioning. In the other topic MarkR mentioned that otherwise it would be an easy win if you build the bunker in the 120 range of your enemy's base. Well, I haven't experienced this problem in the old BK. Moreover, if the enemy lets you to build a 5 CP bunker that close to their base the game is pretty much lost for him. On top of that, I think that long construction time with expensive engineers justifies the efficiency of the bunker.

I don't remember 100% how the set up was some years ago but I remember that during the 5.2.0 beta the bunker was enabled to auto-fire at targets and people immediately discovered what a pain in the ass it was when it was built within the reach of a base. People for some reason still often play relatively small maps where "120" from enemy base is often just slightly past the half of the map and it isn't really hard to get there. Sure, it is the problem of players that they keep playing small maps but still...
Also too long construction time will make the bunker also useless because you will never get to finish building it before someone arties your builders. Maybe we could lower the auto-targetting range to somewhere around 70 and keep longer range for the barrage option.

8) 76mm Jumbo - as it has been discussed, strategically it is a bad choice to go for Jumbo over Jackson. In that case, you put aside the only unit that is able to cause decent damage to Axis heavies.

Jumbo will get a change in the next update that might make the decision between it and B1 more worthwhile.

9) Armor doc command car and BK doc command tank. I have never seen either of them. What are their current abilities and stats? Probably they can be cheaper\earlier available.

The bonuses are listed here. I think the WM command tank has the same bonuses. People suggested to keep the auras active until some other aura is activated but the bonuses are pretty strong so if that was to be the case then the bonuses would need to be nerfed because a constant +50% accuracy and +25 penetration would push performance of many units a tier higher.

10) Churchill in the royal Arty doc - a joke for 3 CP, it is never worth it. Should be swapped for Achilles.

Again, some people in the corresponding posts said that the Churchill is useful there. I would be really reluctant to remove something based on "I don't use it" if there are people who use it.

11) Commando with Sten and Enfields - royal marines and SAS combined with normal rifle sections completely steal their role. There must be at least a single reason to prefer them over the aforementioned units. I think at least their reinforcement cost and time must go down significantly.

The best way to make people think twice about the Marines and SAS would probably be through reinforcement costs and times. We'll have a look at that.

[Consti255]

1) Wespe in TS doc - comes too late and doesn't make sense strategy-wise. Tank doctrine needs an arty unit that can quickly take out a defensive position in order to keep the tanks advancing.

Solution - swap back Hotchkiss with Wespe, limit it to 1 for the same amount of CP.

And we would be back at "never use hummel because Wespe can do too for less ammo". No on this one at least from me.

Agree with Markr. I would still agree with the swap tho. why would someone ever et a hotchkiss when you cannot get the rockets?
The Wespe is just hard to bring into the current Axis docs.
Def doesnt need it,Blitz has the maultier which fits perfectly,prop got nebel and stuka. SE got the Hummel and Hotchkiss (The Wespe would overshadow the hummel than due its lower cost.), Luft? Could be possible but would be powerful in that doc. (i still think thats one of lufts biggest weakness (they heavy lack arty) they only got the LEIG18 which is 50/50 bugged and on top costs a fuck ton of ammo and CP.
Maybe make it somehow work in Luft doc?Thoughts?

2) Gebirgs - as stated in the other topic, they aren't worth it when there is no air reinforcement + their boosts are locked behind the reg.5 which are just as good.

They could go to the defensive doctrine as an elite version of Grens on steroids, would fit the doctrine theme perfectly. Or make them paradropped and unlockable in the infantry branch of the Luft doc.

I asnwered this in the topic so I'll let the discussion going there but in def doc infantry already gets passively the bonuses in cover so normal Grens (when in cover) are very good infantry already. Giving Gebirgs to Def doc where they could also benefit from the global doctrinal abilities and additional bonuses from commander would make them unkillable when in own teritorry. So I am against moving them to Def doc too.

Agreed on Markr aswell, They should stay in the Luft doc since they fit the theme best.
I would still ask for a change for them....

3) Scott in the infantry doc - there are so many ways to deal with emplacements in this doc (rangers, howitzers, priests, call in arty) that Scott is an overkill. On the other hand RAF often struggles against heavy defences, what if Scott will go to the RAF heavy glider?

Many ways but Scott doesn't cost you any ammo and in the beta Scott has been changed to also be more accurate against infantry so you can use it as a dedicated anti-infantry unit instead of Shermans that require to pay ammo for the HE upgrade first. Also RAF has in its glider the "field gun" that has more range than most emplacements and has very good damage against them.

yes test it out.I still think the scott should be more of a infantry support gun rather than a anti emplacement gun. You got the 105mm sherman for that. Also the field gun is really damn strong. Big fireing cone and huge range. I often used it to finish games without useing tanks.

4) Jagdtiger\Kingtiger in the TS doc - those are just so expensive for the doctrine that doesn't have any economy boost abilities. You either get them as a meme unit when you already won, or you save to much res loosing the upper hand and the game eventually? How about making them call in units? It will also distinguish TS more from the Propohanda doctrine.

I also mentioned before that the need for careful resource management is the intended downside of this doctrine. You can get very strong units but usually not very many of them. It is part of how the doctrine works.

Against a call in. As Markr said, they have by far the most powerful tanks and TDs so ressource management is key.

5) Sabotage stormtroopers - too much CP for a tiny squad with quite limited capabilities. I think they should be available with the Storms unlock and be able to crawl by default.

They can crawl by default. If they get unlocked with the halftrack, what will take their place in the unlock tree?

They are fine but get mostly overshadowed by the maultier. Why spend 1 CP + 50 ammo on a satchel when you can get massive AOE for 85ammo and CP free. Also i like the approch.
Since the new vet changes, the 1 CP cold unlock crawling for storms becuase the vet upgrade alone plus 25% damage reduction is worth 3 CPs. But somehow i dont like it that much since storms are breakthrew units and not infiltrators. Still i would be fine with that change.
I think you could still play arround with the UAS and give them earlier crawling.

6) Booby traps for SE - 2 CP is too much. I remember very well that they used to be 1 CP, that offered a great utility when you could put an early pressure and charge tactically important points. Imo should be 1 CP once again.

Where should the one CP point be moved?

I think SE is the doc that needs the most attention right now.
I am gonna make a post about it.
Little spoiler: I think it should be more theme the assault pios as main infantry unit with unlocks and also buffs, aswell more play arrouund with the sabotage sqaud and flames stuff in general.

9) Armor doc command car and BK doc command tank. I have never seen either of them. What are their current abilities and stats? Probably they can be cheaper\earlier available.

The bonuses are listed here.
I think the WM command tank has the same bonuses. People suggested to keep the auras active until some other aura is activated but the bonuses are pretty strong so if that was to be the case then the bonuses would need to be nerfed because a constant +50% accuracy and +25 penetration would push performance of many units a tier higher.

nice. Maybe stuck on the Markr i think overall it wouldve make them way more attractive.

10) Churchill in the royal Arty doc - a joke for 3 CP, it is never worth it. Should be swapped for Achilles.

Again, some people in the corresponding posts said that the Churchill is useful there. I would be really reluctant to remove something based on "I don't use it" if there are people who use it.

Disagree there Markr, i think the only person that said the Curchill was a nice addition was Kwok (correct me if i am wrong)
I think its missplaced but imo royal arty doesnt need achillies since they got the 17pounder emplacements.
Maybe do i thread on its own for this spot int the CP tree.

[MEFISTO]

They can crawl by default. If they get unlocked with the halftrack, what will take their place in the unlock tree?

Make them the same unlock as stormtroopers as before, Suppression Stormtroopers can take their place in the unlock tree.

Gebirgsjaegers should come back as paratroopers and limit them to 2 squads as Fallschirmjaegers (they were working good before the change, no body was talking about " if they feed here or in other doctrine). I also think Luftwaffe big weakness is they lack in artillery when airstrikes get lock by AA, airborne doctrine at least have 75mm M1A1 Pack Howitzer.

About Jumbo 76mm, I would give Jumbo 75mm an upgrade for 20 fuel to be a 76mm and limit it to 1, so it will up to the player to choose wich one he wants to use.

[Diablo]

Agree with Markr. I would still agree with the swap tho. why would someone ever et a hotchkiss when you cannot get the rockets?
The Wespe is just hard to bring into the current Axis docs.
Def doesnt need it,Blitz has the maultier which fits perfectly,prop got nebel and stuka. SE got the Hummel and Hotchkiss (The Wespe would overshadow the hummel than due its lower cost.), Luft? Could be possible but would be powerful in that doc. (i still think thats one of lufts biggest weakness (they heavy lack arty) they only got the LEIG18 which is 50/50 bugged and on top costs a fuck ton of ammo and CP.
Maybe make it somehow work in Luft doc?Thoughts?

#1 Maybe swap Wespe with Grille? It's quicker to destroy emplacements with its 155mm shells, maybe even through the direct fire ability (situationally). I think the Grille is more of a close support / assault artillery unit than a mobile howitzer like the Wespe.
Sure, Def doc already has stationary 105mm guns, but so does Inf doc and they get the Priest anyways. Over there, it adds an extra capability with the Phosphorus Barrage. The same could be said for Wespe in Def doc - it would grant access to the Airburst Salvo (which sadly feels not very effective against infantry).

They are fine but get mostly overshadowed by the maultier. Why spend 1 CP + 50 ammo on a satchel when you can get massive AOE for 85ammo and CP free. Also i like the approch.
Since the new vet changes, the 1 CP cold unlock crawling for storms becuase the vet upgrade alone plus 25% damage reduction is worth 3 CPs. But somehow i dont like it that much since storms are breakthrew units and not infiltrators. Still i would be fine with that change.
I think you could still play arround with the UAS and give them earlier crawling.

#5 They can plant charges for 40 muni, but you're talking about the thrown satchel, right?
A further cost reduction for planting them (35? 30?) along with a shorter time (7-8 sec?) to do so would make them more appealing and stronger in their intended role. After all, they are the sole pure demolition unit. However I don't think the thrown satchel should get any cheaper for them, as they aren't meant for direct confrontation.

I think SE is the doc that needs the most attention right now.
I am gonna make a post about it.
Little spoiler: I think it should be more theme the assault pios as main infantry unit with unlocks and also buffs, aswell more play arrouund with the sabotage sqaud and flames stuff in general.

#6 [brainstorming] Maybe this would be a doc where the Prop Firestorm would fit. Also I recall that for some time frame in the past, flamethrowers were available to regular Grenadiers. Maybe it's worth a try with SE Panzergrenadiers, that would certainly boost their sub-par close range effectiveness. [/brainstorming]

Disagree there Markr, i think the only person that said the Curchill was a nice addition was Kwok (correct me if i am wrong)
I think its missplaced but imo royal arty doesnt need achillies since they got the 17pounder emplacements.
Maybe do i thread on its own for this spot int the CP tree.

#10 How would you assault against a mobile defense by tanks and camo'ed tank destroyers? I think besides all that firepower, the Arty doc is pretty weak with actually taking ground. For that, a crawling bunker like the Churchill is a solid option.

[Red]

1) Wespe in TS doc
From what I have seen, the Jagdtiger can take on 17 pounder emplacements frontally, so I do not think the Wespe is the only way to tackle emplacements in TS.
I am definitly against the Grille - Wespe Swap, Def doc already got a huge nerf when the Elephant was moved to SE to buff that Doc, and replacing the Grille with the Wespe would just nerf Def doc even further. I have a feeling Def doc might be seen by some more as a garage, where they just pick units they like for their preferred doc, without a majority saying that there actually is a problem with that unit being in Def doc.

2) Gebirgs
I like using them in Luft, I most often unlock them way before the Fallschirmspringer.
The often touched topic is the reinforcement costs, which currently are too high.

3) Scott in the infantry doc
Not enought experience with it to comment

4) Jagdtiger\Kingtiger in the TS doc
I am not a big TS guy, but one of my friends builds them in every game....if we survive long enough. So I see them as very high risk-high reward units, as they are single units that can turn the tide of the engagement.

5) Sabotage stormtroopers
I believe I used them once, and then never bothered again. At least I personally would probably not miss them, if they were moved to another Doc.

6) Booby traps for SE - 2 CP is too much.
Not enought experience with it to comment

7) Mortar Bunker
Would it be possible to have the mortar bunker just autotarget infantry, and for anything other than that one would have to use the barrage?

8) 76mm Jumbo
I would propose to make the Nashorn in Def doc 2CP and then add a 1CP unlock for a call-in for a 76mm Jumbo Beutepanzer.
That would give Def doc back some armor it lost when the Elefant was moved (not as much, but better than the current state) and it would make the 76mm Jumbo be used more often.

9) Armor doc command car and BK doc command tank.
I can only comment on the BK doc command tank: it would be nice, if it had a lower-level permanent aura that can situationally be boosted

10) Churchill in the royal Arty doc
I am totally not a RA player, but if it anything like Def doc, I would advise players that like the doc to try and keep a heavily armored tank in the portfolio. But again, not my area of expertise.

11) Commando with Sten and Enfields
Not enought experience with it to comment

[Krieger Blitzer]

4) Jagdtiger\Kingtiger in the TS doc - those are just so expensive for the doctrine that doesn't have any economy boost abilities. You either get them as a meme unit when you already won, or you save to much res loosing the upper hand and the game eventually? How about making them call in units? It will also distinguish TS more from the Propohanda doctrine.

Regarding the JagdTiger in particular;

i always believed it should have more range.. not sure why the 128mm gun is being treated at the same class of 88s & 90mm guns.
Not to mention the JT is too slow to chase any targets.. and has no turret, as well as a very long reload time.

Thus, i believe the basic range of the JT should be increased from 70 to 80 as default.

[berse2212]

4) Jagdtiger\Kingtiger in the TS doc - those are just so expensive for the doctrine that doesn't have any economy boost abilities. You either get them as a meme unit when you already won, or you save to much res loosing the upper hand and the game eventually? How about making them call in units? It will also distinguish TS more from the Propohanda doctrine.

Regarding the JagdTiger in particular;

i always believed it should have more range.. not sure why the 128mm gun is being treated at the same class of 88s & 90mm guns.
Not to mention the JT is too slow to chase any targets.. and has no turret, as well as a very long reload time.

Thus, i believe the basic range of the JT should be increased from 70 to 80 as default.

I honestly hate the JT. Denies any tank support in his range and 70 is kinda far already. Your infantry has to fight this thing alone (apart from Arty of course). If combined with strong infantry / Anti-Infantry tanks it really gets hard to destroy. Furthermore 70 already makes it possible for the JT to just stand back behind defenses and be save while also denying the tanks.

[mofetagalactica]

Chaffe is the most forgotten and useless unit for a long long time lmao. 400MP ,400 for that shit.

[Wake]

Chaffe is the most forgotten and useless unit for a long long time lmao. 400MP ,400 for that shit.

For Armor doc, the Chaffee is also more expensive than a Sherman after the "Cheaper Shermans" CP unlock.

The Chaffee's front armor can also be penetrated by Axis 20mm cannons...