Elephant and Nashorn

[Sukin-kot (SVT)]

How do you guys like the swap of those units?

It seems to me like a weird idea that didn't work. Nashorn fits SE much better and was the only unit that could hold the ground against the heaviest allied tanks, Ferdinand is so much more expensive and later available that it's impossible to build it to counter the first couple of MK7 Churchills or Jumbos, so SE often gets completely steamrolled by those.

At the same time, Defence has lost their only heavy breakthrough unit and went full camping mode with another camo tankhunter...

I'd be very happy if this change gets reverted.

[Walderschmidt]

I personally like it.

Defense doc has always been a campy doctrine. Having either the Elefant or the Nashorn won’t change that.

Wald

[Warhawks97]

https://forum.bkmod.net/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=4134

Atm i am quite divided. As SE i feel quite defensles without cheap Nashorn. Overall the SE doc can make a good use of the elephant as its only really armored tank and able to repair it with combat units or Bergetiger.
Thematically Nashorn fits def doc and the JP IV/70 might be able to be used more offensively with its new armor.
Both fit in each doctrine in theory, just SE really feels naked in terms of defenses.


One thing that came into my mind is that both use nashorn while SE gets Panzer IV J´s.


Elephant would be in TS doc. There player would choose between Tiger and Elephant since Elephant was a TD off-spring of the Tiger. Hence players would chose between Tiger/Elephant, Panther/Jagdpanther and King Tiger/ Jagdtiger. The Jagdpanzer IV/70 would become an independent unlock on that doc.


Def and SE would simply both get a Nashorn.

[Red]

I personally do not like the change at all from a Def Doc perspective. I have not played Scorched Earth since forever (I think I played it once after the change).

For Def, I see the difference in armor of the Nashorn and the Elephant as huge. Without the Elephant or another similarly armored tank, it is imho almost impossible as def to advance against an equally skilled player in 1vs1. The Jagdpanzer IV/48 and /70 are really not good at advancing, none of them has HE ammo and the JPIV/70 even lacks the MG he historically had, so infantry with AT weapons has a field day with him. Def also does not have some kind of elite infantry it can use to advance.
So in my eyes Def really got a bad deal here (it's like: we take away your Super Sherman, but you can have as many Hellcats as you like )

As stated, I cannot speak for SE.

And I do not think we should limit ourselves to discussing swapping Nashorn and Elephant (back and forth), but also consider other tanks.

[Diablo]

Possible would be having Nashorn until the Panzerjäger Kommand upgrade is purchased, then it switches to Elefant/Ferdinand. Just brainstorming here.

Also, Warhawks idea for PS Elefant/Tiger unlock is fresh. Love the flavor, don't know about the gameplay benefit.

Regarding Red's point on advancing with Def doc:
I agree, Jagdpanzers IV (48/70) aren't terribly useful for this. What do you guys think about a Def doc StuG III?

[MEFISTO]

I remember when this changed star, I was one of the players saying don’t change their place PE is a expensive faction don’t switch them it will be painfully for SE, here we go again.

[Consti255]

I like the swap and think it improved SE in many ways.
The elephant isnt neccessary int the def doc because you already got a shit ton of AT capabilitys with big ass guns. 88s, Pak43s , Pantherturms, Jagdpanzer 4/70 and even tanky Grenadiers with Shreks.

SE on the other hand had trouble with tank steamrolls because the nashorn is so fragile.
They just had one Firefly which is also kinda fragile.

[Red]

I like the swap and think it improved SE in many ways.
The elephant isnt neccessary int the def doc because you already got a shit ton of AT capabilitys with big ass guns. 88s, Pak43s , Pantherturms, Jagdpanzer 4/70 and even tanky Grenadiers with Shreks.

SE on the other hand had trouble with tank steamrolls because the nashorn is so fragile.
They just had one Firefly which is also kinda fragile.

It seems we see the past role of the Elephand for the Def Doc quite differently.
For me it was never about the AT capability of the Elephant, but rather about the heavy armor (up to 200mm), and using it to spearhead an assault.
I totally agree that from a pure AT perspective the Elephant is not neccessary for Def!

[Sukin-kot (SVT)]

I like the swap and think it improved SE in many ways.
The elephant isnt neccessary int the def doc because you already got a shit ton of AT capabilitys with big ass guns. 88s, Pak43s , Pantherturms, Jagdpanzer 4/70 and even tanky Grenadiers with Shreks.

SE on the other hand had trouble with tank steamrolls because the nashorn is so fragile.
They just had one Firefly which is also kinda fragile.

It seems we see the past role of the Elephand for the Def Doc quite differently.
For me it was never about the AT capability of the Elephant, but rather about the heavy armor (up to 200mm), and using it to spearhead an assault.
I totally agree that from a pure AT perspective the Elephant is not neccessary for Def!

Agreed, I also saw Elefant as a damage soaker that could push through the defenses.

[Krieger Blitzer]

i personally like the swap.

Elefant is now at 5 CPs only (used to be at 9 CP in Def doc) and SE also got Firefly + 76 Sherman that can both be called at once.
Def doc is also much better with Nashorn.

[Red]

i personally like the swap.

Elefant is now at 5 CPs only (used to be at 9 CP in Def doc) and SE also got Firefly + 76 Sherman that can both be called at once.
Def doc is also much better with Nashorn.

Could you please elaborate how you use the Nashorn in Def and what for you it brings to the table that was not already covered with 88s, Pak43s , Pantherturms, Jagdpanzer VI/70 and Grenadiers with Shreks?

[Krieger Blitzer]

Could you please elaborate how you use the Nashorn in Def and what for you it brings to the table that was not already covered with 88s, Pak43s , Pantherturms, Jagdpanzer VI/70 and Grenadiers with Shreks?

I would exclude everything you mentioned except the Pak43 as others are less powerful and not comparable.
So, the Nashorn is a mobile Pak43 so far.

[Consti255]

Could you please elaborate how you use the Nashorn in Def and what for you it brings to the table that was not already covered with 88s, Pak43s , Pantherturms, Jagdpanzer VI/70 and Grenadiers with Shreks?

I would exclude everything you mentioned except the Pak43 as others are less powerful and not comparable.
So, the Nashorn is a mobile Pak43 so far.

since mk7s are so potent right now. i think nashorns are even better now.
i like the change.

[crazzy501]

Could you please elaborate how you use the Nashorn in Def and what for you it brings to the table that was not already covered with 88s, Pak43s , Pantherturms, Jagdpanzer VI/70 and Grenadiers with Shreks?

I would exclude everything you mentioned except the Pak43 as others are less powerful and not comparable.
So, the Nashorn is a mobile Pak43 so far.

so, coz of Nashorm is a mobile Pak43 why Def doc need them both? Why I need to build Pak43 when I can build Nashorn? Pak43 looks a bit useless now

[Sukin-kot (SVT)]

Could you please elaborate how you use the Nashorn in Def and what for you it brings to the table that was not already covered with 88s, Pak43s , Pantherturms, Jagdpanzer VI/70 and Grenadiers with Shreks?

I would exclude everything you mentioned except the Pak43 as others are less powerful and not comparable.
So, the Nashorn is a mobile Pak43 so far.

since mk7s are so potent right now. i think nashorns are even better now.
i like the change.

That’s the thing, Def doc can hold the ground against RE even without Nashorn. Whereas MK7 or sometimes even Jumbo equals GG for SE. You cannot get Elefant as quick as Nashorn because it costs x2.5.

[Warhawks97]

I havent played def doc often enough and didnt play much as SE in the latest patch. Got the Elephant only once and it wasnt as usefull in this particluar match. Most of the times the eneme throws arty against it anyways. And thats an issue. Once immoblized or something and you are completely defensless. A Nashorn dies to arty too, but you can get two and you can replace them more easily.



As def doc i used it just once so far and thats only BC of the SP. But since they went double armor, i couldnt handle two SP´s. After that i somehow never managed it to unlock because my team needed arty and repair bunkers and other back up stuff. The game usually ended at the time i unlocked it for that many CP. So far i made a lot more use of it when it was in SE doc where i got this thing in almost every match.
But that doesnt mean this thing doesnt fit in def doc as well.



So what i would do with Elephant:
1. Put Elephant into TS doc as the TD path for the Tiger, I think that fits a lot more than having to make a decision between Tigers and Jagdpanzer IV/70´s. Each tank gets thus its equivalent. Panzer IV and Jagdpanzer IV´s, Tiger and Elephant (The elephant was basically its TD-offspring), Panther and Jsagdpanther, King Tiger and Jagdtiger. The Jagdpanzer IV/70 would be either unlock with the Tank IV unlock or having its own unlock somewhere in the command tree. In this doc the Elephant could really act as an assault TD.

2. Def and SE both keep the Nashorn. I never used the Elephant in any of these docs so far. In def i didnt use elephant and also not the Nashorn.

3. Instead these docs could get some sort of medium tank like better Panzer IV´s or simply stug III´s. Def doc has firepower like no other doc in directly and indirectly. That should be enough when used with one medium tank. And Se doc should also be fine with a good medium tank and Nashorn has back up.

[Red]

I like Warhawks proposal quite a bit!

ad 1) Totally see the point for having the Elephant in the Tank Hunter path of the Tank Support, opposite the Tiger. However, to counteract, I would remove the Jagdpanzer IV/70, as this is gun-wise equivalent to the Panther, and unlocking it opposite the Panzer IV would in my view not be equivalent (I see the Jagdpanter IV/48 as the Panzer IV equivalent).

ad 2) From a Def perspective, fine with me to keep the Nashorn, even if I probably will not use it a whole lot. However, I would advocate to replace the Jagdpanzer IV/70 (A) currently in the Def Doc with the Jagdpanzer IV/70 (V) currently in TS.

ad 3) Again from a Def perspective, having a better Panzer IV (meaning better than the F-versions) would be great.

Building on Warhawks proposal, my suggestion for the Def Doc tree would be to have a 3 CP unlock for the better Panzer IV instead of the 2 CP unlock for the Jagdpanzer IV/48 (the later would drop out of the Doc). Then a 2 CP unlock for the Jagdpanzer IV/70 (but the V version, not the A), followed by a 2 CP unlock for the Nashorn. Hence the total number of CPs for this path would stay the same, but one CP gets shifted from the end to the beginning.

[Warhawks97]

I like Warhawks proposal quite a bit!

ad 1) Totally see the point for having the Elephant in the Tank Hunter path of the Tank Support, opposite the Tiger. However, to counteract, I would remove the Jagdpanzer IV/70, as this is gun-wise equivalent to the Panther, and unlocking it opposite the Panzer IV would in my view not be equivalent (I see the Jagdpanter IV/48 as the Panzer IV equivalent).

ad 2) From a Def perspective, fine with me to keep the Nashorn, even if I probably will not use it a whole lot. However, I would advocate to replace the Jagdpanzer IV/70 (A) currently in the Def Doc with the Jagdpanzer IV/70 (V) currently in TS.

ad 3) Again from a Def perspective, having a better Panzer IV (meaning better than the F-versions) would be great.

Building on Warhawks proposal, my suggestion for the Def Doc tree would be to have a 3 CP unlock for the better Panzer IV instead of the 2 CP unlock for the Jagdpanzer IV/48 (the later would drop out of the Doc). Then a 2 CP unlock for the Jagdpanzer IV/70 (but the V version, not the A), followed by a 2 CP unlock for the Nashorn. Hence the total number of CPs for this path would stay the same, but one CP gets shifted from the end to the beginning.

Thx for the feedback.

1. I dont see why the IV/70 would have to drop. It would be available only when going the TD line anyways. So the IV/48 and 70 do not exclude each other even when unlocked with the same unlock.

3. Idk if its good to drop out the IV/48 out of the doc. Def doc cheapest TD would then cost 85 fuel and costing 5 CP.

[Diablo]

But what then? Unlock both the JPIV/70 and Elephant with the Tiger?

I'd prefer dropping the IV/70 from Panzer Support doc, they have enough heavy hitting TDs. Though, the argument could be made, that PS doesn't have any high-end mid game tanks (in the same "tier" as Easy Eight etc.).

By the way, what's the ingame difference between the JPIV/70 versions A and V?

[crazzy501]

I'd prefer dropping the IV/70 from Panzer Support doc, they have enough heavy hitting TDs.

NOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
TS need all of them coz of their different fuel requirements. TS doc doesn't have fuel trade ability and coz of that they usually can't build heavy TDs when them need to counter allied heavies

[Diablo]

If they can't build their signature vehicles, especially then when they "need to counter allied heavies", then there's a bigger problem.

[Warhawks97]

But what then? Unlock both the JPIV/70 and Elephant with the Tiger?

I'd prefer dropping the IV/70 from Panzer Support doc, they have enough heavy hitting TDs. Though, the argument could be made, that PS doesn't have any high-end mid game tanks (in the same "tier" as Easy Eight etc.).

By the way, what's the ingame difference between the JPIV/70 versions A and V?

Along with panzer ivs. All p IV in one unlock. But you have to Tec for TD in order to have access to the IV 70.