Panthers, are they ok?

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Warhawks97
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Re: Panthers, are they ok?

Post by Warhawks97 »

For those coming up with historical arguments about Panthers armor etc. And that it should be better than Tiger armor etc.

Armor:
If we would go "historical", Tigers armor along with Panthers armor wouldnt be as powerfull. A Tiger has a 58% chance to bounce a point blank shot from a 76 gun and over 35% to even bounce HVAP at point blank. That wouldnt happen in reality.
The Panther is quite the same story considering how frequently it bounces even HVAP at point blank.

Thus, when the 76 mm base pen against panthers would go from 0.3 (even less vs G and D) to 0.4 i wouldnt have issues when pen vs Tiger goes from 0.4 to 0.5.

But when we look closely the front armor of those two wouldnt be as different. The Tiger had a much better chance to bounce shots off its turret. A 76 barely made it through. The Panther in return had a much higher chance to pen from its hull but had a much weaker turret armor.
Panther G Hull.jpg
Panther G Turret.jpg
Tiger I Hull.jpg
Tiger I Turret.jpg

However, from a gameplay perspective it would even make sense to have both closer together in terms of front armor. Why? Because we dont have side armor. Many times we see tanks shooting from the side against a Panther and still bouncing many times. That wouldnt happen realistically. A Tiger with its much bigger historical side armor had much better chances to bounce even shots coming from any side angle. Thus the front armor also has to account for the side armor of a tank as well to some degree. Idk how many times now ive seen Panthers getting flanked, yet RNG triggers front armor hit and bounces all shots which is super frustrating to see since its all but easy to flank Panthers.






Panther and Panzer IV:
Yes, Panther was basically the successor of the Panzer IV. The only reason panzer IV´s got still produced till the end of the war was the urgent need of tanks (any tank) and switching all production facilties was just not possible during this time.
So having the Panther as bit more expensive (yet vastly better) medium tank makes absolutely sense.




"The 10 % thing"
Bit confusing but increasing somewhat by 10% doesnt sound much. Basically a 10% increase from a 30% base pen would mean 33% pen. In fact we mean "percantage points". Hence from 30% to 40% which means an increase of rouhgly 34%. Such changes do have an impact.

The pen vs Panzer IV H got increased from 50 to 64% and it changed quite a lot. Esspecially when modifing these values with ambush and HVAP. Those amplify better with higher base values.


A 76 shooting in theory from point blank vs Panther with HVAP has a 46% (or less) chance to pen a panther currently. When we change the base pen from 0.3 to 0.4 the pen with HVAP would increase to 61%. already.

oddly enough, in vcoh Panther has actually the armor values we request here.



My opinion is that not only the 76 should become better in terms of pen, but also 17 pounder and 60 mm lose far too much pen from skirts. From 75% down to 60%? Just because of some skirts in combination of an unit specific received pen modifier? I mean i saw Super Pershings bouncing off from Panther G´s.
Attachments
Tiger I Hull.jpg
Tiger I Turret.jpg
Panther G Hull.jpg
Panther G Turret.jpg
Last edited by Warhawks97 on 04 May 2021, 13:30, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Panthers, are they ok?

Post by Krieger Blitzer »

MarKr wrote:
04 May 2021, 09:59
Both balance approaches are viable but each has pros and cons.
While this is true, there is also the option to establish a middle ground.

So, instead of going only 2 ways; which are either to nerf the Panther's armor, or to keeping it as is... i would recommend reducing Panther's HP to 700 while decreasing its cost, then also tweaking/improving Allied accordingly.

Bottom line is; i am not totally against nerfing the Panther, however; i don't think nerfing the armor in particular is a good idea, and i don't see why those who support nerfing the Panther would insist so much on absolutely no other solutions except the armor nerf.. they are being very narrow minded about it, rejecting any other solutions except that. Yet, somehow they still think their approach is the most open minded and least biased.
Consti255 wrote:
04 May 2021, 12:35
I wanna quote Tiger:
I would rather have a whole doctrine rework instead of changing the Panther. :)
Out of context.
Consti255 wrote:
04 May 2021, 12:35
If you just look at this Panther poll. The majority of players said the Panther should have less armor against a 76mm gun if it is 30%-40% or some players even voted for up to 80%.
Keep in mind, the votes aren't exactly accurate when it comes to penetration chances.. some players had no idea what the question actually means.
Warhawks97 wrote:
04 May 2021, 12:55
For those coming up with historical arguments about Panthers armor etc. And that it should be better than Tiger armor etc.
Historical arguments were actually first used by those requesting to nerf the Panther's armor, not the opposite.. just saying.

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Re: Panthers, are they ok?

Post by MEFISTO »

For those who ask to keep improved 76mm performance, 76mm is really good vs axis medium tanks now, and they are easy to spam with the supply yard upgraded, plus some of Allies race tanks like hellcat and M10 have 76mm.
Then even if you make panther (a bit cheaper with armor nerf) It still will cost a lot more than Sherman 76mm or Hellcat or M10.
Then I just will stop playing bk doctrine.

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Re: Panthers, are they ok?

Post by MEFISTO »

Warhawks97 wrote:
04 May 2021, 12:55
For those coming up with historical arguments about Panthers armor etc. And that it should be better than Tiger armor etc.

Armor:
If we would go "historical", Tigers armor along with Panthers armor wouldnt be as powerfull. A Tiger has a 58% chance to bounce a point blank shot from a 76 gun and over 35% to even bounce HVAP at point blank. That wouldnt happen in reality.
The Panther is quite the same story considering how frequently it bounces even HVAP at point blank.

Thus, when the 76 mm base pen against panthers would go from 0.3 (even less vs G and D) to 0.4 i wouldnt have issues when pen vs Tiger goes from 0.4 to 0.5.

But when we look closely the front armor of those two wouldnt be as different. The Tiger had a much better chance to bounce shots off its turret. A 76 barely made it through. The Panther in return had a much higher chance to pen from its hull but had a much weaker turret armor.

Panther G Hull.jpg
Panther G Turret.jpg
Tiger I Hull.jpg
Tiger I Turret.jpg


However, from a gameplay perspective it would even make sense to have both closer together in terms of front armor. Why? Because we dont have side armor. Many times we see tanks shooting from the side against a Panther and still bouncing many times. That wouldnt happen realistically. A Tiger with its much bigger historical side armor had much better chances to bounce even shots coming from any side angle. Thus the front armor also has to account for the side armor of a tank as well to some degree. Idk how many times now ive seen Panthers getting flanked, yet RNG triggers front armor hit and bounces all shots which is super frustrating to see since its all but easy to flank Panthers.






Panther and Panzer IV:
Yes, Panther was basically the successor of the Panzer IV. The only reason panzer IV´s got still produced till the end of the war was the urgent need of tanks (any tank) and switching all production facilties was just not possible during this time.
So having the Panther as bit more expensive (yet vastly better) medium tank makes absolutely sense.




"The 10 % thing"
Bit confusing but increasing somewhat by 10% doesnt sound much. Basically a 10% increase from a 30% base pen would mean 33% pen. In fact we mean "percantage points". Hence from 30% to 40% which means an increase of rouhgly 34%. Such changes do have an impact.

The pen vs Panzer IV H got increased from 50 to 64% and it changed quite a lot. Esspecially when modifing these values with ambush and HVAP. Those amplify better with higher base values.


A 76 shooting in theory from point blank vs Panther with HVAP has a 46% (or less) chance to pen a panther currently. When we change the base pen from 0.3 to 0.4 the pen with HVAP would increase to 61%. already.

oddly enough, in vcoh Panther has actually the armor values we request here.



My opinion is that not only the 76 should become better in terms of pen, but also 17 pounder and 60 mm lose far too much pen from skirts. From 75% down to 60%? Just because of some skirts in combination of an unit specific received pen modifier? I mean i saw Super Pershings bouncing off from Panther G´s.
Then based on you fantastic penetration table ( I like them and thank you for the historical information) the same way we don’t have side armor in bk the turret armor doesn’t count right? Then a 76mm should have 0 chance to penetrate a panther in the front armor right?
Any ways what make you think a player with a bit cheaper panther (still way more expensive than 76mm) is no going to play defensively when the panther armor get weaker?

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Re: Panthers, are they ok?

Post by MEFISTO »

Any way no matter what I say, after many years playing BK doctrine which used to be my favorite axis doctrine this change is coming, and I realize how I stop playing this doctrine as I used to do it.
No body here can accused me as an Axis fan at all, I actually have more games and winning as American Allies than any other factions.

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Re: Panthers, are they ok?

Post by Warhawks97 »

MEFISTO wrote:
04 May 2021, 15:40
For those who ask to keep improved 76mm performance, 76mm is really good vs axis medium tanks now, and they are easy to spam with the supply yard upgraded, plus some of Allies race tanks like hellcat and M10 have 76mm.
Then even if you make panther (a bit cheaper with armor nerf) It still will cost a lot more than Sherman 76mm or Hellcat or M10.
Then I just will stop playing bk doctrine.

Assumption:
Panther G for 680 MP, 120 fuel vs 76 sherman for 450 MP and 55 fuel (tbh i am asking for having tanks costing more fuel in exchange for some MP cost drop). You just have to kill two 76 shermans in order to make the tank pay itself off. Given the fact that the Panthers chance to pen a sherman is guranteed while the sherman at max range even with HVAP and suggested change still only has 31% chance to get through, the fact that Panthers have a better mobility, range and accuracy i think it should be doable to take out two tanks before being taken out. I see foolish Panther moves every day like charging into hidden TD´s and shermans, tanking all shots and even destroying the ambush.


Also, we have Jagdpanzer IV/70 now for 490MP and 85 fuel that can easily take out pershings and all allied heavy tanks. And its fine.


MEFISTO wrote:
04 May 2021, 15:58

Then based on you fantastic penetration table ( I like them and thank you for the historical information) the same way we don’t have side armor in bk the turret armor doesn’t count right? Then a 76mm should have 0 chance to penetrate a panther in the front armor right?
Any ways what make you think a player with a bit cheaper panther (still way more expensive than 76mm) is no going to play defensively when the panther armor get weaker?


Because it worked many times already. When i started with BK a Tank IV H cost 100 fuel and 550 MP. People used it veeery carefully. Meanwhile cheap stug III´s got thrown into the battle all day long-


Now the cheap Panzer IV´s, before barely used, often got rushed and thrown into combat only because they became cheaper.

The Fallschirmjägers never dropped behind enemie lines. Too risky to lose 550 MP. Now people keep dropping them on pretty much everything knowing they can throw a new one every 1 and a half minute.

Panzer III´s get spammed like shit sometimes now. Just because they got HE by default and costing only 390/40 right now. Before people rushed once for them and never rebuild them.


Tigers did cost 1000 Mp and 180 fuel when i started BK. I barely saw them. Now they get used frequently.
I would argue that we have many example where it worked this way over the years.



When i began with BK, most tanks cost a shit ton of MP and fuel, esspecially germans. And it was basically a camp mod with each tank showing up once in a while only. Then they got cheaper followed by a performance drop and today we got some real tank battles going on. Sometimes even too big since many tanks cost almost no fuel which results in brainless spam attacks.
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Re: Panthers, are they ok?

Post by MEFISTO »

Panther has anything to do with Jadpanzers IV/70, and Pershing’s are stupidly easy to penetrate by any medium axis tanks like stugs etc... actually the Pershing had better armor than tiger1 and panther. In a combat between them used to win the first in shut and hit because they 3 have a very powerful gun.
panthers should have a very good frontal armor in BK, we may can talk about side armor and price reduction but front armor no way.

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Re: Panthers, are they ok?

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MEFISTO wrote:
04 May 2021, 16:18
Panther has anything to do with Jadpanzers IV/70, and Pershing’s are stupidly easy to penetrate by any medium axis tanks like stugs etc... actually the Pershing had better armor than tiger1 and panther. In a combat between them used to win the first in shut and hit because they 3 have a very powerful gun.
panthers should have a very good frontal armor in BK, we may can talk about side armor and price reduction but front armor no way.
side armor is a mix of front/rear basically. When you trigger rear, the shot pens anyways already, not much left for tweaking. However many side shots (and mostly flanking shots come from a forward angle) and thus still bounce most likely currently.


And how to drop its cost without changing its armor a bit? As stated, the cost is currently the only thing that keeps it somewhat balanced, though always under to condition "win or lose". It is overlapping too much with Tigers currently.
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Re: Panthers, are they ok?

Post by Red »

Just to bring in the historical perspecive again.

I used the information I found on the armor of the Tiger I and the Panther, calculated the LOS thickness (standardised armor) for each section and (roughly) approximated the coverage of each section based on diagrams. Then I used this to compute an average LOS for the front, side and rear. You find the computation attached, but just as a summary:

Average LOS thickness

Tiger I (1943 & later with 40mm top turret armor & 200mm mantlet)
Front : 191,4mm
Side: 70,5mm
Rear: 85,2mm

Panther (non-G or F/G Hybrid) - please note that I did not use the curve for the mantlet, but applied the angle of the armor plate behind it
Front: 156,8mm
Side: 45,9mm
Rear: 47,6mm
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Tank Armor comparison.ods
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Re: Panthers, are they ok?

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Re: Panthers, are they ok?

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Re: Panthers, are they ok?

Post by MarKr »

Please stop piling up these historical sources.This is a game and we're talking about balance and general unit purpose within the game. If we decide that Panther purpose is (whatever), then the unit will be adjusted to fit the purpose even if means it would have a bit weaker armor than Tiger or not match the reality in other way.

When we'll go through this topic to make some decision, as soon as we run into any any form of the word "realism" or "history", we're skipping right to the next topic immediately.
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Re: Panthers, are they ok?

Post by MEFISTO »

MarKr wrote:
04 May 2021, 21:07
Please stop piling up these historical sources.This is a game and we're talking about balance and general unit purpose within the game. If we decide that Panther purpose is (whatever), then the unit will be adjusted to fit the purpose even if means it would have a bit weaker armor than Tiger or not match the reality in other way.

When we'll go through this topic to make some decision, as soon as we run into any any form of the word "realism" or "history", we're skipping right to the next topic immediately.
Call in Nerf
Storm path nerf
Crawl 7 cp
Panther price up (to avoid rush spam)
Then panther armor nerf in return of a “bit better price”
What is next? Opelmoutier behind CP? When you need to build the 3 HQ to be able to make one?
BK doctrine....... sad.

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Re: Panthers, are they ok?

Post by Red »

MarKr wrote:
04 May 2021, 21:07
Please stop piling up these historical sources.This is a game and we're talking about balance and general unit purpose within the game. If we decide that Panther purpose is (whatever), then the unit will be adjusted to fit the purpose even if means it would have a bit weaker armor than Tiger or not match the reality in other way.

When we'll go through this topic to make some decision, as soon as we run into any any form of the word "realism" or "history", we're skipping right to the next topic immediately.
Of course the devs have the freedom to ignore any information they want, however I believe there are also people like me that also care about the game being set in World War II and not Starcraft.
And when some people argue with the historically super strong front armor of the Panther, however when actually looking at the average armor throughout the whole front section, it has on average significantly less than the Tiger I according to generally accepted standards, then I believe such information is relevant at least for those who brought forth the now obviously challanged argument about the historically super stong front armor of the Panther.
Having said that, I totally agree that balancing should take precedence over historical details, but I disagree that historical context should not be discussed and unintended misinformation not be challanged.

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Re: Panthers, are they ok?

Post by MEFISTO »

Red wrote:
04 May 2021, 21:33
MarKr wrote:
04 May 2021, 21:07
Please stop piling up these historical sources.This is a game and we're talking about balance and general unit purpose within the game. If we decide that Panther purpose is (whatever), then the unit will be adjusted to fit the purpose even if means it would have a bit weaker armor than Tiger or not match the reality in other way.

When we'll go through this topic to make some decision, as soon as we run into any any form of the word "realism" or "history", we're skipping right to the next topic immediately.
Of course the devs have the freedom to ignore any information they want, however I believe there are also people like me that also care about the game being set in World War II and not Starcraft.
And when some people argue with the historically super strong front armor of the Panther, however when actually looking at the average armor throughout the whole front section, it has on average significantly less than the Tiger I according to generally accepted standards, then I believe such information is relevant at least for those who brought forth the now obviously challanged argument about the historically super stong front armor of the Panther.
Having said that, I totally agree that balancing should take precedence over historical details, but I disagree that historical context should not be discussed and unintended misinformation not be challanged.
Panther had 80mm at 55 angle making it a 120mm, more than the 100mm at 9 angle of the Tiger 1, on the sides Tiger 1 had better armor than panther

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Re: Panthers, are they ok?

Post by Krieger Blitzer »

Warhawks97 wrote:
04 May 2021, 16:57
It is overlapping too much with Tigers currently.
Actually, if Panthers would get same armor as Tiger tanks, they would be overlapping even more.. because then Panther would be just a worse version of the Tiger1 which also has less abilities compared to Tigers.

While currently, the Panther isn't exactly worse or better... As it has pros and cons compared to Tiger1, having 200/300 less HP but in return more armor, if you remove the armor advantage; then they are no longer "different" from Tigers as they are supposed to be.. but only "worse" on the other hand.


Thus, i believe the best option is to reduce the Panther's HP from 800 to 700 instead of messing around with the Panther's frontal armor.. while reducing its cost and improving Allies as well.

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Re: Panthers, are they ok?

Post by MEFISTO »

Krieger Blitzer wrote:
04 May 2021, 21:45
Warhawks97 wrote:
04 May 2021, 16:57
It is overlapping too much with Tigers currently.
Actually, if Panthers would get same armor as Tiger tanks, they would be overlapping even more.. because then Panther would be just a worse version of the Tiger1 which also has less abilities compared to Tigers.

While currently, the Panther isn't exactly worse or better... As it has pros and cons compared to Tiger1, having 200/300 less HP but in return more armor, if you remove the armor advantage; then they are no longer "different" from Tigers as they are supposed to be.. but only "worse" on the other hand.


Thus, i believe the best option is to reduce the Panther's HP from 800 to 700 instead of messing around with the Panther's frontal armor.. while reducing its cost and improving Allies as well.
True

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Re: Panthers, are they ok?

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Red wrote:
04 May 2021, 21:33
Having said that, I totally agree that balancing should take precedence over historical details, but I disagree that historical context should not be discussed and unintended misinformation not be challanged.
I worded that poorly. Ofcourse you can keep discussing it and reacting to other people who come up with the historical arguments. I meant that in the end the historical accuracy is not a deciding factor and when I see some people writing a whole wall of text on the topic of what is historically accurate, I wanted point out that all time spent on writing that is probably not going to have any significant impact on the final decision here.
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Re: Panthers, are they ok?

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MEFISTO wrote:
04 May 2021, 21:38
Panther had 80mm at 55 angle making it a 120mm, more than the 100mm at 9 angle of the Tiger 1, on the sides Tiger 1 had better armor than panther
I would like to point out, that you seem to be taking one armor plate from the Panther, compare it to one armor plate of the Tiger I that covers approximately 22% of the total front armor of that tank, and use it as a comparison for a game value that not only should cover 100% of the frontal armor, but also partially the side armor.
Why then don't you compare the 80mm 55° plate of the Panther to the 62mm 80° angle plate of the Tiger I front? In terms of LOS, that's 139,5mm for the Panther and 357mm for the Tiger I. (As you can see in the file I had attached, the plate of the Tiger I was now referring to only covers 9% of the total front, so I would also not call that a valid comparison for the abstact game value of penetration in the frontal arch of a tank.)


MarKr wrote:I worded that poorly. Of course you can keep discussing it and reacting to other people who come up with the historical arguments. I meant that in the end the historical accuracy is not a deciding factor and when I see some people writing a whole wall of text on the topic of what is historically accurate, I wanted point out that all time spent on writing that is probably not going to have any significant impact on the final decision here.
Thank you for the clarification, I totally support this stance and see the point.
Would it maybe be possible to have a dedicated sub-forum for such historical discussions, where we can just link the historical discussion thread and the balacing thread, so us crazies do not get in the way of the actual balancing discussion, and if someone was interested he/she would know where to look? (Or start a thread, if there is none yet.)

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Re: Panthers, are they ok?

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Red wrote:
04 May 2021, 22:20
MEFISTO wrote:
04 May 2021, 21:38
Panther had 80mm at 55 angle making it a 120mm, more than the 100mm at 9 angle of the Tiger 1, on the sides Tiger 1 had better armor than panther
I would like to point out, that you seem to be taking one armor plate from the Panther, compare it to one armor plate of the Tiger I that covers approximately 22% of the total front armor of that tank, and use it as a comparison for a game value that not only should cover 100% of the frontal armor, but also partially the side armor.
Why then don't you compare the 80mm 55° plate of the Panther to the 62mm 80° angle plate of the Tiger I front? In terms of LOS, that's 139,5mm for the Panther and 357mm for the Tiger I. (As you can see in the file I had attached, the plate of the Tiger I was now referring to only covers 9% of the total front, so I would also not call that a valid comparison for the abstact game value of penetration in the frontal arch of a tank.)


MarKr wrote:I worded that poorly. Of course you can keep discussing it and reacting to other people who come up with the historical arguments. I meant that in the end the historical accuracy is not a deciding factor and when I see some people writing a whole wall of text on the topic of what is historically accurate, I wanted point out that all time spent on writing that is probably not going to have any significant impact on the final decision here.
Thank you for the clarification, I totally support this stance and see the point.
Would it maybe be possible to have a dedicated sub-forum for such historical discussions, where we can just link the historical discussion thread and the balacing thread, so us crazies do not get in the way of the actual balancing discussion, and if someone was interested he/she would know where to look? (Or start a thread, if there is none yet.)
I don’t compare the 62mm at 80 angle because behind that plate what you have is a 100mm at 9 angle where the shut is going to hit after bounce the 62mm at 80 angle.
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Re: Panthers, are they ok?

Post by MarKr »

Red wrote:
04 May 2021, 22:20
Would it maybe be possible to have a dedicated sub-forum for such historical discussions, where we can just link the historical discussion thread and the balacing thread, so us crazies do not get in the way of the actual balancing discussion, and if someone was interested he/she would know where to look? (Or start a thread, if there is none yet.)
You mean the History/Realism section? :lol:
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Re: Panthers, are they ok?

Post by Consti255 »

Krieger Blitzer wrote:
04 May 2021, 21:45

Actually, if Panthers would get same armor as Tiger tanks, they would be overlapping even more.. because then Panther would be just a worse version of the Tiger1 which also has less abilities compared to Tigers.

While currently, the Panther isn't exactly worse or better... As it has pros and cons compared to Tiger1, having 200/300 less HP but in return more armor, if you remove the armor advantage; then they are no longer "different" from Tigers as they are supposed to be.. but only "worse" on the other hand.


Thus, i believe the best option is to reduce the Panther's HP from 800 to 700 instead of messing around with the Panther's frontal armor.. while reducing its cost and improving Allies as well.
Hands down? The Panther is the better tank. Without any denial. It has better armor, better speed and better accuracy.
The gun difference is so slighty, that you can kill everything with a Panther what you could kill with a Tiger.
It comes down again to the MK7 where both tanks struggle to pen anyway.
As i wrote early today. HP is a good factor but not as nearly as impactful as armor. What does a HP change do, when he still bounces of 76 rounds the whole day and you even get it cheaper. This would just be an buff to the overall better performing Panther.
HP is just kinda wired and often gets no real impact of reduying it that "little".

Improveing allies. Pls dont show off again with this stupid jackson/achillies idea for every doc.

Its not like i am in complete denial over the HP reduction but when you guys want again a WHOLE unit raster to change instead of ONE unit, than you have to bring up good ideas with numbers and not like: throw in heavy TDs in every doc.
Krieger Blitzer wrote:
04 May 2021, 13:23
Consti255 wrote:
04 May 2021, 12:35
I wanna quote Tiger:
I would rather have a whole doctrine rework instead of changing the Panther. :)
Out of context.
also. Why is this out of context? It was just a repetition of what youve said to mark our what Markr said. People want the whole game to change over a change to ONE unit.
It was a little bit harsh i am sorry but still true and what youve said.
Nerf Mencius

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Re: Panthers, are they ok?

Post by Krieger Blitzer »

Consti255 wrote:
04 May 2021, 23:41
Hands down? The Panther is the better tank. Without any denial. It has better armor, better speed and better accuracy.
You said your opinion, but do you want mine?
i would say when both tanks has no vet then Panther is probably better, but at vet.2 the Tiger1 is (undoubtedly) better.. and at vet.4 Tiger1 is nearly immortal and perhaps the best tank in the entire game when reaching 4 veterancy levels. (zero exaggeration)

Also; just because you don't like the idea of improving Allied, doesn't mean the idea is stupid.
Not to mention i already illustrated - with detailed numbers - since the first page why i think it's not a good idea to nerf the Panther's armor.
Consti255 wrote:
04 May 2021, 23:41
also. Why is this out of context? It was just a repetition of what youve said to mark our what Markr said. People want the whole game to change over a change to ONE unit.
It was a little bit harsh i am sorry but still true and what youve said.
Out of context because that's what i said:
Mate, the variety of the doctrines was sacrificed long time ago when the decision was taken to make them 1v1 oriented.
At some point, you WILL HAVE TO sacrifice it even more.. otherwise you break the UNITS. Now it's the Panther, tomorrow it's the Tiger1, next week it's the Pershing, next month every unit in the game will have to be re-worked... HELL NO.
I would rather see the doctrines re-worked all over again, and not to keep messing around with the units like this...

Most units in the game currently have valid TT stats, models at good standing, correct animation and perfectly working in-game physics.. with the Panther being one of the most fine-tuned units in the entire game.

Not this:
Consti255 wrote:
04 May 2021, 12:35
I wanna quote Tiger:
I would rather have a whole doctrine rework instead of changing the Panther. :)
There is clearly a difference between what i said compared to what you tried to quote me of.. mate.

Consti255
Posts: 1155
Joined: 06 Jan 2021, 16:12
Location: Germany

Re: Panthers, are they ok?

Post by Consti255 »

Krieger Blitzer wrote:
05 May 2021, 00:33
Consti255 wrote:
04 May 2021, 23:41
Hands down? The Panther is the better tank. Without any denial. It has better armor, better speed and better accuracy.
You said your opinion, but do you want mine?
i would say when both tanks has no vet then Panther is probably better, but at vet.2 the Tiger1 is (undoubtedly) better.. and at vet.4 Tiger1 is nearly immortal and perhaps the best tank in the entire game when reaching 4 veterancy levels. (zero exaggeration)

Also; just because you don't like the idea of improving Allied, doesn't mean the idea is stupid.
Not to mention i already illustrated - with detailed numbers - since the first page why i think it's not a good idea to nerf the Panther's armor.
Throwing off the idea of a doc with throwing in senseless units, which arent fitting feels really stupid to me.
Its just the circle debate i am pointing out. I am not in denial or willing to change allies to fight the Panther when it comes with a cost reduction or MP to fuel ratio change. But i am COMPLETELY against the idea to sacrifice unique docs and making them more and more the same.
Here a Idea what should be done except "new units" in a doc:

- increase 76s pen chance vs frontal armor (This whole debate)
- increase handhelt AT vs frontal armor by a noticeable ammount
- increase 90mm pen vs frontal armor
- increase pershing range and accuracy

Anyone can add some more ideas please.
All in terms of cost reduction for the way to high prices of the Panthers right now.
There is still room to operate like untouching the Panther G armor or anything, but it has to be a GAMEPLAY orriented reason.

Krieger Blitzer wrote:
05 May 2021, 00:33
Out of context because that's what i said:
Mate, the variety of the doctrines was sacrificed long time ago when the decision was taken to make them 1v1 oriented.
At some point, you WILL HAVE TO sacrifice it even more.. otherwise you break the UNITS. Now it's the Panther, tomorrow it's the Tiger1, next week it's the Pershing, next month every unit in the game will have to be re-worked... HELL NO.
I would rather see the doctrines re-worked all over again, and not to keep messing around with the units like this...

Most units in the game currently have valid TT stats, models at good standing, correct animation and perfectly working in-game physics.. with the Panther being one of the most fine-tuned units in the entire game.

Not this:
Consti255 wrote:
04 May 2021, 12:35
I wanna quote Tiger:
I would rather have a whole doctrine rework instead of changing the Panther. :)
There is clearly a difference between what i said compared to what you tried to quote me of.. mate.

I can see. Its been a while ive read this. My bad.
Nerf Mencius

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Viper
Posts: 563
Joined: 06 Dec 2014, 23:18

Re: Panthers, are they ok?

Post by Viper »

Consti255 wrote:
05 May 2021, 10:09

Here a Idea what should be done except "new units" in a doc:

- increase 76s pen chance vs frontal armor (This whole debate)
- increase handhelt AT vs frontal armor by a noticeable ammount
- increase 90mm pen vs frontal armor
- increase pershing range and accuracy

Anyone can add some more ideas please.
All in terms of cost reduction for the way to high prices of the Panthers right now.
There is still room to operate like untouching the Panther G armor or anything, but it has to be a GAMEPLAY orriented reason.
you want to nerf panther versus every anti tank option available at its stage :?: :?: :?:

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