Propaganda doctrine 20 mm vehicle

[Warhawks97]

In the last games i noticed that the Propaganda doctrine can build its 20 mm Halftrack right away. Luckily it ran blindly into a bazooka squad.

I dont know if anyone had noticed it (kwok didnt notice it when i asked him and) but the problem is the following:

Fuel Starting Ressource by Factions in High Ressource games:

PE: 60 fuel
WH: 55 fuel
US: 50 fuel
CW: 50 fuel


The point now is that Propaganda doctrine only needs two buildings that cost combined 35 fuel in order to have access to the 20 mm Halftrack and no HQ upgrade is required. So for a total of 55 fuel (35 for buildings and the 20 for the vehicle itself) WH can field a 20 mm armed vehicle.

US meanwhile has to pay its entire starting fuel ressources to get all three buildings up. So in total to get an M20 it requires 65 fuel. The first few minutes can thus be exploited and abused by Propaganda doctrine as its vehicle does not face any competitor. The Armor doc RL jeep might be an counter to it or perhaps a cal 50 jeep that is well microed.


Kwok at least didnt know about the these facts and the difference in starting fuel ressources and unit availability. But he said its not a big deal. I am not sure yet. But in terms of firepower Propaganda doctrine is going to outclass other factions in the early phase and can build combat units from three buildings at once in the early stages.


Would be nice if anyone else has thoughts on it or if any was even aware of that.

[Walderschmidt]

I don’t know if he was aware that each faction starts out with different fuel and I never thought about if.

But Wehrmacht can actually skip the Wehrmacht Quarters and build the 20mm Halftracks right away. In fact, in some games I’ve played with two of them at once in the initial line up.

I’ve had several games like this but I feel like they’re an extreme gamble because you’re sacrificing teching speed to get them and they’re very fragile, slow (the turret is slower than my 95 year old Grandma), and most things in the US arsenal even between the first two buildings can shred them.

Rifle nades own them. 37mm at guns own them. Small arms fire hurts them. US Jeeps, especially the .50 cal and 75mm recoilless jeeps can shred them. British AT rifles kill them in two hits and that 2pdr Daimler car can deal with them handily as well.

If these 20mm HTs were more hardy, speedy, had better range, or something else - I think they’d potentially be OP. But having had rushed them multiple games I think their use mainly comes from how early you can get them.

Wald

[kwok]

ShAdOw NeRfS

okay sorry drunk me is still trying to hold back my sarcasm.

basically i agree with walder in the only thing that unit is good for is being available early. having any later and theres no reason to get the unit over the puma. meanwhile allies have plenty of early cheap, mobile, some 360, AT options now to make it not a devasting threat. it can be zoned out and honestly it just delays teching which is super important on a propaganda doc strategy. It's best job is probably not to go offensive but literally protect volkssturm from getting curbstomped by rampaging 50cal jeeps that can super dodge 37mm pak guns.

[Warhawks97]

ShAdOw NeRfS

okay sorry drunk me is still trying to hold back my sarcasm.

basically i agree with walder in the only thing that unit is good for is being available early. having any later and theres no reason to get the unit over the puma. meanwhile allies have plenty of early cheap, mobile, some 360, AT options now to make it not a devasting threat. it can be zoned out and honestly it just delays teching which is super important on a propaganda doc strategy. It's best job is probably not to go offensive but literally protect volkssturm from getting curbstomped by rampaging 50cal jeeps that can super dodge 37mm pak guns.

You know my opinion on Pumas. I would have made the versions doctrine specific instead of universal and reward options and also havine some of them in PE.
For Terror for example, i would only add the 75 mm Stubby Puma as it would be a great mobile support for volkssturm when fighting emplaced targets.
For BK doc the 20 mm Puma seems appropriate to protect the medium tanks against inf. The other two Puma versions, the one with 50 mm gun and 75 mm PaK would go to Tank support doctrine and Luftwaffe doctrine respectively.

I dont see why there have to be multiple 20 mm vehicles in a single doctrine.



As for the tecing: All games i played with Propaganda ended long before i could reach t3. The max unit i got out as a finisher was the Tank IV up untill now. I never had a need for getting a Tiger. Volkssturm, Volksgrens, vehicles, officer boost and if neccessary artillery get mostly all jobs done much quicker than spending lots of res into teching. Its for me more of a spam doc that doesnt have to reach max tier. Quite like infantry doctrine or AB.
That means that i had no issue with Propaganda doc by playing it with lots of vehicles and infantry. I found the tech part a lot more important when i played as BK doctrine which really relys a lot more on tecing up than propaganda doctrine does.



I mean, basically i also have no issue having the 20 mm car right away. I like it a lot. I mean brits are getting their Badd-ass Daimler also very fast and kicking butts with them.

But US is going to struggle against it when players become more aware of Propaganda doctrine early game power, let alone its recruiting options and the ammount they can throw into combat rigt away.

[Walderschmidt]

You know my opinion on Pumas. I would have made the versions doctrine specific instead of universal and reward options and also havine some of them in PE.
For Terror for example, i would only add the 75 mm Stubby Puma as it would be a great mobile support for volkssturm when fighting emplaced targets.
For BK doc the 20 mm Puma seems appropriate to protect the medium tanks against inf. The other two Puma versions, the one with 50 mm gun and 75 mm PaK would go to Tank support doctrine and Luftwaffe doctrine respectively.

I dont see why there have to be multiple 20 mm vehicles in a single doctrine.

This is a side issue as this thread is about the 20mm HT coming in so early.

1) The 20mm Puma is a better 20mm than the HT but it's locked behind tech. Getting one vs the other is a trade off and it's nice that the player has the option rather than is locked into one vs the other.
2) Also, if I use your logic "don't see why there have to be multiple 20 mm vehicles in a single doctrine", I'll remind you that Propaganda has the PIII N stubby 75mm. Why would you have two 75mm vehicles in the same doctrine? Would you remove the PIII N to give Prop the 75mm Stubby Puma?
3) As of right now, the 20mm Puma is the only real AA that Propaganda has until T3.

As for the tecing: All games i played with Propaganda ended long before i could reach t3. The max unit i got out as a finisher was the Tank IV up untill now. I never had a need for getting a Tiger. Volkssturm, Volksgrens, vehicles, officer boost and if neccessary artillery get mostly all jobs done much quicker than spending lots of res into teching. Its for me more of a spam doc that doesnt have to reach max tier. Quite like infantry doctrine or AB.
That means that i had no issue with Propaganda doc by playing it with lots of vehicles and infantry. I found the tech part a lot more important when i played as BK doctrine which really relys a lot more on tecing up than propaganda doctrine does.

1) I rarely go into T4 but it doesn't mean that we might as well remove T4 as if Propaganda doesn't need it.
2) That said, Sherman's with HE and .50 cals or other similar vehicles wreck volkssturm. An Amor doc has strong enough inf to keep away volkssturm to get enough breathing room to get a fast Sherman. Well placed MGs can shut down volksturm pushes with easy. Just because you play against people who melt in the face of Propaganda doc or are particularly skilled doesn't mean a doc is too powerful or needs things added or taken away.
3) Teching is still important especially if the opponent rolls out Pershings and you've only got PIV F2s. Hell, even E8 spam is dangerous because they outclass the Panzer IVs that propaganda gets by a fair margin.

I mean, basically i also have no issue having the 20 mm car right away. I like it a lot. I mean brits are getting their Badd-ass Daimler also very fast and kicking butts with them.

But US is going to struggle against it when players become more aware of Propaganda doctrine early game power, let alone its recruiting options and the ammount they can throw into combat rigt away.

Players will struggle less against propaganda doctrine as they figure out its early game power and modify their build orders to counter it and know what units to focus down to get breathing room.

The 20mm HT is fragile and slow and US players have more than enough options to neutralize it with ease.

Wald