Propaganda Doctrine Officer Rework

[MenciusMoldbug]

Hey guys,

So I've been extensively play testing propaganda doctrine and know what is strengths and weaknesses are. Although I know you are supposed to use your weak infantry in conjunction with buffs and de-buffs, there is a problem that while you're essentially playing a doctrine which is supposed to overwhelm the enemy by sheer mass, you are still limited to a single officer to buff your horde of troops to attack the enemy. This leads to a problem where a single officer is paired up with blobs of volkssturm because it is better to blob them up then to have them stand far away enough that they are out of the officers aura range. So while I talked about the idea of changing the officer setup for Propaganda over here. I will elaborate in a thread dedicated to it to make my thoughts clear on the subject:



So I've changed the setup and tiering of the officers so they come at the 'appropriate' stages where they will be the most useful and potent. Along with changing what abilities they have and what they can do. All the officers shown in the picture have the same officer aura buff, they just differ in how strong they are, what abilities they come with, and what stage of the game they come into play.

*Note that with multiple officers, your aura buffs for each officer do not stack upon each other (not even marginally like the LT buffs do). This is to encourage spacing your units rather than blobbing officers and squads together (as that's what I'm trying to avoid with the option of multiple officers for Propaganda Doctrine).

Propaganda Officer (Unit Limit of 3):
(2 Body Guards of Volks equipped with Kar98k's, and the Propaganda Officer with the Luger)
250 MP in cost

You start with this unit very early. You can build it straight out of the Wehrmacht quarters as soon as you finished and picked propaganda doctrine (same as how you can build volkssturm from the HQ as soon as you pick the doctrine). They start with the early demoralize that debuffs enemy units very slightly and gets stronger as you tier up. They also have bincoulars to observe and the volkssturm buff that essentially gives volks heroic charge. They have lost all the other abilities they came with as I have given them to the later tier officers and also for the reason you can get 3 of these squads in a game now (to help you spread out your volkssturm instead of blobbing around a single officer). He can forward retreat to the normal officer (or the retreat point) like other units so his role is turned towards combat-suppor instead of to act as a retreat point in many occasions that I had to use him for.

Normal Officer (Unit LImit of 1):
(No Body Guards, comes with a Luger and can upgrade to the MP40 just like in non-beta BK)
260 MP in cost

Same officer as in the normal and beta game for the other doctrines. He is also capable of buffing volkssturm around him but he does not have bodyguards like the Propaganda Officer and is more risky to use on the frontlines. However since he got his abilities like the observed fire you can use him just as before if you mange to find the right opportunities to bombard something.

Knights Cross Officer (Unit Limit of 1):
(4 Body Guards of Storm Troopers equipped with G43s, and the Knights Cross Officer with his STG44)
500 MP in cost

Basically the newest addition to the propaganda doctrine. As the match goes on and you reach the later stages of the game, your normal propaganda officers might not cut out in all the artillery bombardments, elite inf, and heavy arms the allies are bringing forth. To make an officer that can still manage to buff your chaff infantry without dying I thought why not just bring back a single Knights Cross Holder which instead of acting as a combat unit is an Officer with Bodyguards. He gets binoculars and demoralize as well as the observed fire to destroy fortified positions he can see around him. While he does not have the supervision ability, the retreat point or the ability to act as a retreat position, he comes with heroic charge which is pretty similar to that of the LT Officers Heroic charge in the British Doctrine. Basically breaks suppression and lets all your guys sprint to where they want to go, as well as giving them combat buffs for a time (until exhaustion kicks in after the heroic charge buff is over). He can forward retreat to the normal officer or the retreat point like the Propaganda Officer does (so he is again combat-support unit and not a retreat point for your units).

Re-working the Expeirenced Leutenants CP Unlock:

I was thinking off-hand you could buff this ability a bit more since you will now have multiple officers. In addition to giving unlocks and buffs for the Propaganda Officer. It can also give veterancy 1 and a 25% XP boost to all the officers so it's much more lucrative to pick it up early. Might be too big of a buff but it's something to think about.

Re-working the officers for Propaganda will go a long way to make the buff/de-buff game of Propaganda Doctrine a lot more appealing. This might seem like a giant infantry combat boost for the doctrine but really it's just re-working the officer so you have more options available to you for volkssturm positioning rather than just relying on a single officer.

[Walderschmidt]

I like this idea a lot and would love to try it out and fight against it.

Wald

[Echo]

I also agree with this idea. its very thought out.

[kwok]

My critique on this idea is that it would essentially remove the weakness this doctrine is meant to have and potentially make it un-counterable. Spreading too thin is meant to be a challenge for the player using the doctrine just as lack of good tanks is a weakness for Airborne doctrine. If the intent was to make volkssturmm buffed to be strong enough that they act as basic inf then we would've just dropped the cost of volksgrenadiers. Choosing where you put your officer to apply pressure against the enemy is a part of the "high skill high reward" combo.

That being said, if the idea is still extremely popular it can be considered but I'm warning players now... volkssturmm are already really strong when a player knows how to use it... Many players just don't know this yet. This will just make it so you can spam volkssturmm, stick an officer near them, and you have a giant front line of extremely strong infantry.

[MenciusMoldbug]

My critique on this idea is that it would essentially remove the weakness this doctrine is meant to have and potentially make it un-counterable. Spreading too thin is meant to be a challenge for the player using the doctrine just as lack of good tanks is a weakness for Airborne doctrine. If the intent was to make volkssturmm buffed to be strong enough that they act as basic inf then we would've just dropped the cost of volksgrenadiers. Choosing where you put your officer to apply pressure against the enemy is a part of the "high skill high reward" combo.

That being said, if the idea is still extremely popular it can be considered but I'm warning players now... volkssturmm are already really strong when a player knows how to use it... Many players just don't know this yet. This will just make it so you can spam volkssturmm, stick an officer near them, and you have a giant front line of extremely strong infantry.

I think you're right. What if it's just the Tier 4 Knights Cross Officer then? You would still have the propaganda officer doing the normal officers job but the Knights Cross Officer comes late enough that the weakness of volksstturm is still present throughout majority of the game. It would still present the problem of spreading too thin because 2 officers cannot keep a strong line in the late game with all the bombardment going around but it could act as a 'heavy officer' unit in places where the propaganda officer would get destroyed.

[sgtToni95]

I'm surely up for the popcap increase for the already existing officer, maybe 2 would be good enough. I think heavy tanks are not really the problem to face since most of allies tanks can be countered by tiger + panzershreks/panzerfaust spam. The reason why i brought up the suggestion of giving this doc some more officers is, as Mencius said, that having this big number of relatively weak units depending on external buffs would work better if you could have those buffs on more than 1 place.

I don't think a stronger officer is needed tho.

I hopefully will have more occasions to test the doc so to have a clearer idea.

[mofetagalactica]

I totally love mencius idea, please have it in mind. I would also like to see more different kind of officer groups for other doctrines.

[MarKr]

I would also note here that from the posts here it seems that the general point of view is "to make Volkssturms stronger I must have officer". However, the Officer is only one of the ways how Volkssturms can get advantage over the opponent. There is still the Zeal passive ability which provides bonuses with each dead soldier in the squad. For example for 6-men squads a dead soldier means a loss of 1/6 of their firepower, for Volkssturms with the Zeal a lost soldier takes away less of the total squad firepower.
"Volkssturms are weak" means the performance difference between Vsturms and enemy infantry is big, but with the Propaganda abilities you can make enemy infantry temporarily worse and so make the performance difference smaller (also the abilities apply stronger nerfs on enemy infantry with each new phase upgrade but the cost remains the same). The Inspired Assault ability can be pretty devastating too when you use it against outnumbered opponents (which isn't that hard to do with Vsturms).

So even when you fight at more places and have just one Officer, you can still gain advantage for your Vsturms through other means.

[CGarr]

I love the idea of having multiple officers, including the middle officer. I will, however, say that vsturms should really be changed in a way that makes their stats/vet focus exclusively on values/abilities that would help in a defensive role. I don't mean defensive stats specifically by this, I am rather saying this kind of inf should be more suited to sitting back in trenches, as the theme of this doc (at least from what I understand) is to SURVIVE until heavy reinforcements come in the form of armor, arty, and an offense oriented officer that can help lead pushes (KCH).

Volksgrens are still available in the doctrine and can successfully fill in as early aggressor inf. Vsturms do not need to do this and realistically shouldn't do this, as they tread a very thin line between being ridiculously weak on the offense and ridiculously OP, as Kwok warned in an above response. As such, it would be smart to focus less on trying to figure out how to balance them for that role and instead allow them to fulfill their natural role as trench fodder, just as armies often used their more poorly trained troops in real life. Their stats are like perfect for this role, seriously, think about it:

1. Auto-retreat before vet 1 unless in trenches/buildings.

2. Poor defensive stats, no fire-up, and unless you blob hard (and thus are forced to gamble getting creamed by arty) they don't do shit to other inf. Their only useful tools on the offense are arguably grenades and fausts, and both of these tools are also very suitable for use in a defensive role (the latter relying can be fired out of a trench before a tank starts shooting at them unless an enemy spotter is nearby, due to BK's mechanic of making units in trenches untargetable until they fire or are detected.

3. They're ridiculously cheap, it is pretty easy to just blanket an entire swatch of land in staggered trenches and fill in with these units. Additionally, you aren't losing much if the enemy decides to use anything but their cheapest indirect fire options on your inf, as the volume of inf you can field relative to the muni it would cost them to fire their heavier guns at you makes constant bombardment an exercise in futility for your opponent.

They're literally perfect for this role. Yes, this would mean that using vsturms en masse would essentially turn this doc into defense doc with Tigers/rockets instead of TD's/howitzers, but nothing is stopping players who want to take the offensive from using volksgrens alongside the officer while they wait for armor to hit the field. Additionally, the tanks this doc can field and it's more mobile arty options provide a different enough experience once you reach mid and late game I don't think it'd be a huge issue.

-------------

In saying all of this, I think the exact setup Mencius described for the officers perfectly suits the transition towards having vsturms become more defense oriented inf units, and possibly having the volksgrens on propaganda doc be made more suitable for use on the offense (maybe give them flame nades to make up for the gap in firepower between them and allied heavy infantry?) alongside the KCH squad that will come to help them in the late game. I would go as far as even saying that vsturms shouldn't be able to sprint. They're conscripted units made up of civilians and non-combat troops that might not have the conditioning your average frontline soldiers would, especially if you consider that the germans often had old men and young children in their conscripted units (BK can't visually model this for obvious reasons but there isn't anything saying that their abilities in-game can't reflect this), and if they are balanced to be ideal trench fodder units then they would no longer really need sprint to be viable, thus their sprint could be removed or the duration could be made significantly shorter so that they can no longer run across open fields and slaughter everything in their path once they and their officer reach a certain level of vet.

I am just going to leave this here as a supporting piece for why I think having these units play an defensive role would make much more sense than trying to fine tune them for both offense and defense. I (Dick) played like shit this game, although my teammates and the enemies did pretty well. This was a good (or at least fun) game, but I think the latter half of it massively highlights how easily the vsturms can be used to just steamroll everything in their current state once they reach a certain level of vet (which isn't difficult to obtain). The player I was facing (Rappatix) had only played with the doc once or twice before this game, yet even without experience using the doc he was able to easily just run these units straight into armor and high vet CW infantry across an open field and still be able to inflict heavy damage, even before he started using his arty.

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I am not saying Vsturms should be weak, I am saying that making them more defense oriented would prevent either side from steamrolling. If vsturms got nerfed flat out I think there is a good chance we would have pushed them back once we got the ball rolling with our arty/troops and won this game (not that it matters). I don't think that would've really been a fair outcome either, as this was a pretty well balanced game in terms of players. As such, making them more suitable for holding ground rather than flat out nerfing them seems like the best course of action, as they could've easily gotten a decent defensive line going and if they did so I think this game could've gone either way, with our arty doc player and their panzer support doc player's performance probably being the deciding factors, as both side had a doctrine capable of easily pushing through strong defensive lines (I could've gotten a croc out later in the game but the enemy had tigers so it wouldn't necessarily be a cakewalk, I think we'd have better luck with arty).

[Constantino]

I like the idea, but rather than having multiple officers cluttering up build menus/queues, why not just keep the 1 officer as he is now and just give him additional/upgraded abilities with phase unlocks? I think having multiple officers may be too strong, but it could be reasonable if there was a CP unlock in the Volksstrum tree to increase the officer unit cap.

[CGarr]

I like the idea, but rather than having multiple officers cluttering up build menus/queues, why not just keep the 1 officer as he is now and just give him additional/upgraded abilities with phase unlocks? I think having multiple officers may be too strong, but it could be reasonable if there was a CP unlock in the Volksstrum tree to increase the officer unit cap.

They're not really a main combat unit, personally I don't think the UI clutter would be a huge deal. You don't have to build them often and they have pretty unique portraits. They'd also be pretty different in terms of stats, and having multiple with KCH level stats running around would be pretty obnoxious. Going off of Mencius's suggestion, it looks like there'd be some sort of teching cost at least, so you wouldn't have a bunch of crazy strong officers running around right off the bat. Anyways, the Vsturms are definitely the bigger issue when it comes to balancing this doc as right now they are kind of ridiculous. This officer change would be more for just making the doc fun to use, balance wise it wouldn't affect much other than allowing you to spread your stuff out a bit. If you're worried about the doc getting too ridiculously strong, lets get the Vsturms fixed.

[MenciusMoldbug]

After a few more games with propaganda doctrine. I feel like splitting buffs between multiple officers and volkssturm is a lot more feasible than focusing buffs on volkssturm themselves. Officers can be a great linch-pin as neutralizing them can neutralize volkssturm offensive capabilities if they lost things like the ability to sprint into tanks and panzerfaust them (having to instead rely on officer buffs/heroic charge to do that stuff).

I know I might not be speaking for the majority of axis players but I really do think that no matter how good propaganda doc and volkssturm themselves are, people will think terror got nerfed to oblivion because of 'balance' reasons rather than getting revamped/changed. Getting stuff like a KCH officer is to add back the cool factor of old terror doctrine back into propaganda again. I know there's a lot of players who really like playing around with 'super units' and this is a way of adding that back in but without all the uber powerful stats in them, as in this case they would just be officers to buff the rest of your infantry.

On volkssturm themselves, the main problem I see with them is they are like old gebirsjagers which would endlessly sprint at your tanks just to panzerfaust them. The resemblance is uncanny if they didn't die so quickly (but in most cases doesn't matter because you have enough squads to panzerfaust a tank). Removing sprint and giving them sprint abilities through an officer would go a long way of making it more intuitive to use and play against them from my perspective.

[Diablo]

Not a fan of relying on Heroic Charge for movement, the switching unnecessarily increases micro.
I'd prefer a greyed out disabled sprint ability while there's no officer near.

[CGarr]

I agree with Mencius and Diablo, although I would also say that the sprint should only come after vet 2 (sounds like a lot but vsturms get vetted crazy fast due to the low requirements). Being able to just pump out fresh squads to rush at armor is dumb, there are dedicated AT squads if anyone really wants to do that. Additionally, all the defensive buffs should only apply in cover. Volksgrens are available if people want to go on the offensive, vsturms really shouldn't be making advances unless a player is desperate, even with an officer supporting them. The germans didn't use their conscripted troops in this manner, they put them in trenches and let them hide behind every door, tree, car, or pile of rubble they could find to just slow the allied advance. They aren't fresh soldiers, they're the injured, the non-combat troops, the old man and child volunteers.

As for gameplay reasons, most maps that people play on (even some of the bigger ones) are just too small or cluttered for their disadvantage (being foot troops with no access to longer range AT like a panzershreck) to really come into play, as sooner or later the allied player's vehicle is bound to hit a roadblock while trying to kite them backwards (so the hull MG fires and you don't get immobilized by a single faust) due to the smaller pathing issues often encountered by vehicles on most maps. Between that and the decent range of the fausts, you've got like a 0.5 second window to get your tank/car moving again before they close enough distance to fire an unholy amount of fausts at it and just instakill it, no matter what it is.

Removing sprint (or substituting H3 anti tank nades for fausts) until later vet would help alleviate that somewhat, making their defensive bonuses only apply in cover would help even more. I'm not asking for this doctrine to have weak inf, if these changes go through then I wouldn't be opposed to grens (or even a "KCH lite" squad that functions similar to the rifle stormtroopers without the cloaking but with an MG option) to be available alongside all the officers and tanks and shit, as long as those units can pull a gebrigsjager and just run across open fields to faust stuff to death.

[Walderschmidt]

I definitely think they should not be able to sprint until vet 2 or 3.

Before that, I'd only let them sprint when an officer is nearby and activates heroic charge.

Wald

[CGarr]

I definitely think they should not be able to sprint until vet 2 or 3.

Before that, I'd only let them sprint when an officer is nearby and activates heroic charge.

Wald

This sounds reasonable, that ability adds enough micro that I think its fair, especially if the defensive bonuses get changed to apply only in cover so vsturms are actually vulnerable during this tidal wave of men rushing.

[MenciusMoldbug]

I'm necroing in this thread because I still feel the ideas are valid and I really want a Knights Cross Officer unit.

[Consti255]

great idea tho. Its also very unique haveing a Doc where you got scaling offizier units.
Pretty nice.

[Warhawks97]

The idea sounds pretty but i do have my concerns, esspecially for the late game.

There would be multiple officers on the field which means (A) you can buff your inf everywhere and nonstop and (B) a loss of such a unit doesnt hurt as much as for other factions which dont have an "back-up" officer to rely on. The doctrine already has tons of stuff to debuff enemies with its Tanks, global prop abilities and so on. It also features powerfull artillery (latest add was the super brutal off map rocket strike) and Powerfull AA.

[Sukin-kot (SVT)]

I would be down for any change related to the infantry element as I hated the volksturm concept from the start and I absolutely dislike playing the doc because of them.

As Hawks mentioned somewhere, volksturm could fit amazingly into the def doc with it’s bonuses. Prop needs Grens as its backbone.

[MEFISTO]

I would be down for any change related to the infantry element as I hated the volksturm concept from the start and I absolutely dislike playing the doc because of them.

As Hawks mentioned somewhere, volksturm could fit amazingly into the def doc with it’s bonuses. Prop needs Grens as its backbone.

+1 agree, I really don’t see a tiger pushing with no infantry support, I am not saying Vokssturm is a bad idea it just they are in the wrong place they will feed way better in defensive Doctrine, with at least one heavy infantry unit like PE officer infantry call in.

[MarKr]

This is going in circles.
- Intention: Prop doc has volksturms who are intentionally weak in 1v1 situations but get pretty much OP if used in numbers and supported with their buffs and enemy debuffs (+ other units) - a.k.a. "if you play the doc right"

- Complaint: "Prop doc has weak infantry even Riflemen melt them!!! Prop doc needs better infantry!!!"
- Answer: No, the doc doesn't need better infantry. Use the doctrinal abilities to your advantage and ALWAYS fight enemy squads with higher number of Volksturm + some ideally some support unit such as the 20mm HT early on. (If enemy has 1 squad of Riflemen, you should have at least 2 squads of Vsturms/ if enemy has 3 squads, you should have AT LEAST 4). The Vsturms are cheap and fast to build and reinforce for a reason.

- Complaint: Later on enemy elite infantry just steamrolls my Vsturms! Prop doc needs better infantry!!!
- Answer: No, it doesn't need better infantry. Use the propaganda abilities on enemy elites to nerf their stats and so negate a large portion of their stat advantage and even then the rule to ALWAYS fight with more squads and support applies.

- Complaint: Vsturms are complete trash against tanks!! The panzerfaust has short range and they easily die to a single HE shot or top mount 50cal! Prop doc needs better infantry!
- Answer: No, it doesn't need better infantry. Vsturms are not there to hunt tanks. They have panzerfaust to deter enemy vehicles from driving up to them and wiping them with a single MG burst from 2 meters away. You should ALWAYS support your meatshie...I mean...your Vsturms with other units. So if opponent has tanks, you should have something to destroy the tanks with - at least the 50mm PaK vs medium tanks or some unit with 75mm L48 gun (PaK, HT, PIV...). Later on the Early version Tiger is a great thing as it nerfs units around (after unlock) by just being there anf it allows your Vsturms to reinforce near it. (get ready for Warhawks complaining about "this being a bullshit" in...3....2....1.... )

- Complaint: OMG, OK, if they don't get better infantry (which they need, btw), at least give them more officers to boost the Vsturms. While we're at it, the officers could be the old KCH units - this way the doc will get more officers to support the Vsturms and it won't need the Vsturms at all because KCH are KCH!
- No, the doc doesn't need better infantry, more officers or KCH. One officer is enough. It is not needed to have several officers to be able to have several Vsturm combat groups, each supported by the officer. The officer is very important in the Prop doc infantry play and as such he is a rare resource that you should use wisely, not as a disposeable unit.

Most of the complaints about Vsturms and "Prop doc needs better infantry" comes (or at least it seems to come) from players who try to use Vsturms the same way as Vgrens, Pgrens Grens or even Storms - send in one squad against opponent's squad and know you have a very good chance to win by pure durability and firepower of the unit. Vsturms don't work like this. You must have more of them, you must fight with groups and support and you absolutely MUST actively use the debuff abilities on your opponents. If you don't, you lose. End of story.

The people who learned to use the doc the right way will tell you it is one of the strongest docs in the game. People who play the doc in a similar way as the old Terror doc will complain that the Prop doc sucks and needs better infantry. Yes, we know this spammy playstyle isn't for everyone, but if it's not for you, you have 5 other docs to play. If you want strong infantry with good cheap tanks, play BK. If you want very strong tanks with relatively good support infantry, play TS doc. Infantry-heavy doc with good support tanks and offmaps? Play Luft. More defense-based style? Def or SE.

Prop doc is more than decent in its current state but to make it work at full efficiency, it requires a different playstyle. If you don't like the playstyle, fine, but don't ask us to change something that works only because you would prefer it to work differently.

[Warhawks97]

I am not saying i am an expert Prop doc player. But i can say i play it far differently than most other do. I never ever got a Tiger out and always played without that unit. Only cheap inf and rockets etc. And i can say it can be pretty tought to stand your ground. Its funny in the early game and in teamfights the sheer mass can put really good pressure on your enemie in the first mins of the game, esspecially when paired with 20 mm car and Luftwaffe fallis. But later on the docs starts to feel a bit like playing SE doc. In Teamfights usually relegated to support role with walking stuka, sector propaganda and so on. And both having the issue of having just one expensive super tank (Beta thankfully changed that for SE as it brings back nashorn) which quite often is too risky to get and for the most part i have to stick with my support role by providing Arty and AA as well as propaganda abilities. The other way playing this one is rushing Tigers while your mates hold the line. But you completely ignore the infantry part basically as you put all the CP into Tigers and their upgrades as well as ressource trade.


So its kind of Early Push- Late support doc or pure Tank doc. But that combo of lots of Vsturms combined with Tigers is only a late game wet dream scenario that i have never seen so far. Not in my games, not in watched streams nor in replays.
So overall i prefered the SE doc when i expected to be in a more supportive role because there i can overall support better in late game while also having a strong ground with my infantry while using Grens with Sturmführer.

Another issue is the medium armor supposed to back your infantry. When you went for inf and your enemie rushed stuff like a stuart or shermans, things can become quite tricky. The F2 will do its best but wont hold too long. The best bet is a stug III but then again you have spend like 5 CP for some inf buffs on generally weak inf and stug support. Enemie mechanized forces that instead rushed some sort of well armored tank can literally mow you down and your Tiger is 4 CP away. And Stug IV costs way more than a Hetzer would in SE doc to come back to it.


They layout on paper isnt bad. Just as it is perhaps with AB doc. To be fair in would chose prop doc over AB anytime since i dont feel so naked sometimes. But you also spend a lot of CP in one direction (eg inf) and your enemie shows up with two cheap HE tanks. So while AB is hence nicknamed Sherman+Airplane doctrine, Prop doc often comes down to "Tiger doctrine" as this is your best bet in the long run. Inf is always a thing when you know some teammates will provide sufficient armor support. Else you get "outteched".


The propaganda style of this doctrine can stay. Just i wonder whether it would be an idea to bring back a more Grenadier orientated style and upgrades that enable them to carry flamethrowers and flamegrenades. Their loadout would essentially be LMG42, Flamethrower and perhaps MP40 (or schreck). Perhaps even losing schrecks as to give them some sort of weakness. abilities would be stuff like Flamenades, normal nades Hafthohladung and this assault ability that makes them throw several grenades on a target. Flamenades, flamethrower would require a flame unlock while another unlock provides them MP40 and the assault ability.


VSturm would essentially move to def doc. There my main struggle is to get sufficient infantry on the field to man trenches and to cover my TD´s effective which have 0 Anti infantry power. I often wish i had some sort of cheap infantry in this doctrine as buffer units. There Vsturm could be used to field basic defenses like trenches, wire etc while Fausts etc get unlocked via defensive infantry training.


Thats just my opinion on that.

[MEFISTO]

Please can someone upload a Good game using this Vokssturm the right way? I will start plying this "starcraft" doctrine a bit more, but I hate the idea of spamming these guys plus an officer to make them worth it.

[Consti255]

I am not saying i am an expert Prop doc player. But i can say i play it far differently than most other do. I never ever got a Tiger out and always played without that unit. Only cheap inf and rockets etc. And i can say it can be pretty tought to stand your ground. Its funny in the early game and in teamfights the sheer mass can put really good pressure on your enemie in the first mins of the game, esspecially when paired with 20 mm car and Luftwaffe fallis. But later on the docs starts to feel a bit like playing SE doc. In Teamfights usually relegated to support role with walking stuka, sector propaganda and so on. And both having the issue of having just one expensive super tank (Beta thankfully changed that for SE as it brings back nashorn) which quite often is too risky to get and for the most part i have to stick with my support role by providing Arty and AA as well as propaganda abilities. The other way playing this one is rushing Tigers while your mates hold the line. But you completely ignore the infantry part basically as you put all the CP into Tigers and their upgrades as well as ressource trade.


So its kind of Early Push- Late support doc or pure Tank doc. But that combo of lots of Vsturms combined with Tigers is only a late game wet dream scenario that i have never seen so far. Not in my games, not in watched streams nor in replays.
So overall i prefered the SE doc when i expected to be in a more supportive role because there i can overall support better in late game while also having a strong ground with my infantry while using Grens with Sturmführer.

Another issue is the medium armor supposed to back your infantry. When you went for inf and your enemie rushed stuff like a stuart or shermans, things can become quite tricky. The F2 will do its best but wont hold too long. The best bet is a stug III but then again you have spend like 5 CP for some inf buffs on generally weak inf and stug support. Enemie mechanized forces that instead rushed some sort of well armored tank can literally mow you down and your Tiger is 4 CP away. And Stug IV costs way more than a Hetzer would in SE doc to come back to it.


They layout on paper isnt bad. Just as it is perhaps with AB doc. To be fair in would chose prop doc over AB anytime since i dont feel so naked sometimes. But you also spend a lot of CP in one direction (eg inf) and your enemie shows up with two cheap HE tanks. So while AB is hence nicknamed Sherman+Airplane doctrine, Prop doc often comes down to "Tiger doctrine" as this is your best bet in the long run. Inf is always a thing when you know some teammates will provide sufficient armor support. Else you get "outteched".


The propaganda style of this doctrine can stay. Just i wonder whether it would be an idea to bring back a more Grenadier orientated style and upgrades that enable them to carry flamethrowers and flamegrenades. Their loadout would essentially be LMG42, Flamethrower and perhaps MP40 (or schreck). Perhaps even losing schrecks as to give them some sort of weakness. abilities would be stuff like Flamenades, normal nades Hafthohladung and this assault ability that makes them throw several grenades on a target. Flamenades, flamethrower would require a flame unlock while another unlock provides them MP40 and the assault ability.


VSturm would essentially move to def doc. There my main struggle is to get sufficient infantry on the field to man trenches and to cover my TD´s effective which have 0 Anti infantry power. I often wish i had some sort of cheap infantry in this doctrine as buffer units. There Vsturm could be used to field basic defenses like trenches, wire etc while Fausts etc get unlocked via defensive infantry training.


Thats just my opinion on that.

I like the idea in general, but when trading Grens back, there has to be a nerf to the debuffs and such. Grens would be absolute op when you can debuff everthing while carring a MG42.