Propaganda Doctrine Officer Rework

[Consti255]

This is going in circles.
- Intention: Prop doc has volksturms who are intentionally weak in 1v1 situations but get pretty much OP if used in numbers and supported with their buffs and enemy debuffs (+ other units) - a.k.a. "if you play the doc right"

- Complaint: "Prop doc has weak infantry even Riflemen melt them!!! Prop doc needs better infantry!!!"
- Answer: No, the doc doesn't need better infantry. Use the doctrinal abilities to your advantage and ALWAYS fight enemy squads with higher number of Volksturm + some ideally some support unit such as the 20mm HT early on. (If enemy has 1 squad of Riflemen, you should have at least 2 squads of Vsturms/ if enemy has 3 squads, you should have AT LEAST 4). The Vsturms are cheap and fast to build and reinforce for a reason.

- Complaint: Later on enemy elite infantry just steamrolls my Vsturms! Prop doc needs better infantry!!!
- Answer: No, it doesn't need better infantry. Use the propaganda abilities on enemy elites to nerf their stats and so negate a large portion of their stat advantage and even then the rule to ALWAYS fight with more squads and support applies.

- Complaint: Vsturms are complete trash against tanks!! The panzerfaust has short range and they easily die to a single HE shot or top mount 50cal! Prop doc needs better infantry!
- Answer: No, it doesn't need better infantry. Vsturms are not there to hunt tanks. They have panzerfaust to deter enemy vehicles from driving up to them and wiping them with a single MG burst from 2 meters away. You should ALWAYS support your meatshie...I mean...your Vsturms with other units. So if opponent has tanks, you should have something to destroy the tanks with - at least the 50mm PaK vs medium tanks or some unit with 75mm L48 gun (PaK, HT, PIV...). Later on the Early version Tiger is a great thing as it nerfs units around (after unlock) by just being there anf it allows your Vsturms to reinforce near it. (get ready for Warhawks complaining about "this being a bullshit" in...3....2....1.... )

- Complaint: OMG, OK, if they don't get better infantry (which they need, btw), at least give them more officers to boost the Vsturms. While we're at it, the officers could be the old KCH units - this way the doc will get more officers to support the Vsturms and it won't need the Vsturms at all because KCH are KCH!
- No, the doc doesn't need better infantry, more officers or KCH. One officer is enough. It is not needed to have several officers to be able to have several Vsturm combat groups, each supported by the officer. The officer is very important in the Prop doc infantry play and as such he is a rare resource that you should use wisely, not as a disposeable unit.

Most of the complaints about Vsturms and "Prop doc needs better infantry" comes (or at least it seems to come) from players who try to use Vsturms the same way as Vgrens, Pgrens Grens or even Storms - send in one squad against opponent's squad and know you have a very good chance to win by pure durability and firepower of the unit. Vsturms don't work like this. You must have more of them, you must fight with groups and support and you absolutely MUST actively use the debuff abilities on your opponents. If you don't, you lose. End of story.

The people who learned to use the doc the right way will tell you it is one of the strongest docs in the game. People who play the doc in a similar way as the old Terror doc will complain that the Prop doc sucks and needs better infantry. Yes, we know this spammy playstyle isn't for everyone, but if it's not for you, you have 5 other docs to play. If you want strong infantry with good cheap tanks, play BK. If you want very strong tanks with relatively good support infantry, play TS doc. Infantry-heavy doc with good support tanks and offmaps? Play Luft. More defense-based style? Def or SE.

Prop doc is more than decent in its current state but to make it work at full efficiency, it requires a different playstyle. If you don't like the playstyle, fine, but don't ask us to change something that works only because you would prefer it to work differently.

Myself included. I dislike prop doc to the maximum and its not fun at all. But when you ever faced a competent prop doc player, its so hard to play against because you are used to win against players useing that doc. It requires a ton of micro to work out. In my opinion its the hardest doc by far, but it offers the most rewarding result in the whole game.

I see why the devs want to keep the doc in the game because they came up with the vsturm concept and it can work out well if a player is willing to adapt. Still i really have to mention, that 90% of the playerbase hate prop docs playstyle. Its either to hectic or they are too bad at micro and only in a few cases it is that players dont like it because they dont like the playstyle.

Id be down for a change for the doc in general, because i suck at playing prop. LOL

[Sukin-kot (SVT)]

So this doc works only in theory when:

1) You got all the CP unlocks and manage to combine Tigers + Buffed infantry. As using only inf is a death sentence.

2) You are a machine with godlike micro. I have an above average skill, buy trying to control 8+ Volksturm squads that die in a blink of an eye, require Faust activation and an officer nearby that needs to stay alive + throwing debuffs abilities is driving me absolute nuts and make me hate the game.

3) You have ammo income as in BK fun mode. Because if you continuously use debuffs you cannot afford rocket arty.

Idk who are those legendary players who rock the Prop doc. I did lose against it a couple of times, but mostly in the early game due to basic units like volks + puma + pz F2, which have nothing to do with the doc.

In 95% of the games Prop doc = sit behind mg and paks, maybe camoed Stug, score kills with Neblers and save res with CP for a Tiger. It’s the most boring doc to play and also to face in the middle game.

Another reason why I don’t like the debuffs concept - the enemy can always retreat and leave you with 40 ammo wasted. Yes, you are able to take initiative from the tactical aspect. Buy you will bleed on MP eventually. Because the enemy will always melt your infantry while retreating in case of debuffs.

Whilst most of the docs became more fun to play, I think Prop doc along with AB represent the biggest downfall from the previous Bk iteration. Terror was so much more fun with buffed grens + nebel VT. There was a problem that doc was too similar to BK. But currently it would not be the case, various infantry load outs (eg Grens have flame nades and mg42 unlike storms) + Tigers vs Panthers make it different enough.

UPD: It is especially miserable to play volks after the recent vet buffs to elite inf. I’d pick Storms + Cheap Panthers +
Maultier that always has ammo to shoot (because you don’t spend on debuffs) over Volkssturm (that require tons of Micro and CP), Tiger (50% more expensive than Panther fuel wise) and walking Stuka (great, but usually unlocked very late, because without Stugs and Tigers you will get steamrolled by allied tanks).

UPD 2: I would also confirm that "Tigers + lots of buffed volksturm" is wet a dream that has nothing to do with the reality. It is impossible to control an expensive tank that requires all your attention and manage 6+ inf squads with an officer at the same time (especially retreating each one when the HP is low, reinforcing and using faust abilities). The concept of this doc is way beyond any skill requirements.

[MEFISTO]

I had a game yesterday as propaganda and it was so hard to try to keep all these units alive, it requires a 100% focus, also if you have multiple units the officer can be in one place at the time so the ones far from the officer have no business.
It’s hard and not fun at all to try to keep these guys alive, you need to have a really good micro and be focused all the time, seems like this doctrine is for pro players only (I am not in that list) so good luck with that to the pro players, and for the rest of the mortals, as Mark said “you still have 5 more axis doctrines”

[H.Drescher]

hello.

i am an inhuman machine from the darkest abyss powered by the souls of the ancients and adderal. i perceive time all at once and beyond its petty veil.

as many have said before with the ancient incantations: "git good"

many thanks,
dad.

[MEFISTO]

hello.

i am an inhuman machine from the darkest abyss powered by the souls of the ancients and adderal. i perceive time all at once and beyond its petty veil.

as many have said before with the ancient incantations: "git good"

many thanks,
dad.

Lol lol

[Consti255]

hello.

i am an inhuman machine from the darkest abyss powered by the souls of the ancients and adderal. i perceive time all at once and beyond its petty veil.

as many have said before with the ancient incantations: "git good"

many thanks,
dad.

it sounds meme but he is right.
Its a high skill high reward doc. period.
I would like to see a change to it aswell, because i suck to much at it, but to be honest it can stay as it is.

[Warhawks97]

Honestly, i have not yet seen anyone doing really well with this doc unless rushing Tigers that come as a big surprise as long as teammates carry mid to late game. People that i know playing this doc all day long are Wald, Kwok and Drescher. But aside from Kwok the other two guys often get pushed back after the initial success. Drescher is quite interesting with its Vsturm spam combined with laying mines with Pios. Wald has its Sturm double 20 mm car Propaganda spam tactics. But the 20 mm cars it what makes his opening actually effective.

These are at least those that have at least somewhat of a plan what to do with this doc. I tried this doc myself a few times. Its interesting but overall i prefer other docs.

[Consti255]

Honestly, i have not yet seen anyone doing really well with this doc unless rushing Tigers that come as a big surprise as long as teammates carry mid to late game. People that i know playing this doc all day long are Wald, Kwok and Drescher. But aside from Kwok the other two guys often get pushed back after the initial success. Drescher is quite interesting with its Vsturm spam combined with laying mines with Pios. Wald has its Sturm double 20 mm car Propaganda spam tactics. But the 20 mm cars it what makes his opening actually effective.

These are at least those that have at least somewhat of a plan what to do with this doc. I tried this doc myself a few times. Its interesting but overall i prefer other docs.

agree, but i mean we have 5 different docs you can choose. So letting one high skill doc in the game is fine. Also since the change of TH into PS doc, its not like you can just get Tigers or KT with prop doc.

[Warhawks97]

Honestly, i have not yet seen anyone doing really well with this doc unless rushing Tigers that come as a big surprise as long as teammates carry mid to late game. People that i know playing this doc all day long are Wald, Kwok and Drescher. But aside from Kwok the other two guys often get pushed back after the initial success. Drescher is quite interesting with its Vsturm spam combined with laying mines with Pios. Wald has its Sturm double 20 mm car Propaganda spam tactics. But the 20 mm cars it what makes his opening actually effective.

These are at least those that have at least somewhat of a plan what to do with this doc. I tried this doc myself a few times. Its interesting but overall i prefer other docs.

agree, but i mean we have 5 different docs you can choose. So letting one high skill doc in the game is fine. Also since the change of TH into PS doc, its not like you can just get Tigers or KT with prop doc.

1. I never get Tigers to begin with. Or perhaps two times in a year only.
2. Tiger in TS doc is a bad pick in my opinion.


But my point isnt that i want Tigers and being forced to play this doc. Its more like i havent seen anyone really with the skills to handle this doctrine in a way that i would say its "Highly Rewarding". Its more like High risk and average reward. Picking any other doc is less risky and brings the same or even better rewards. Like i often think that a skilled player does maybe well with this doc, but its not like he is being more deadly and more rewarded than he would have been with any other doctrine. When kwok or anyone beats someone with prop doc i am like "he would have won it even easier if he had chosen any other doc.

So my point stands from what i saw, its either a support doctrine in Teamfights for the most part or just a heavy Tank doc with better arty.

[Consti255]

I support your opinion. I strongly dislike prop doc as a whole. For me its by far the most boring doc to play, but thats because i suck at it.

Still what i have to say directly to Markr, i think the idea of Volksturm in Def doc is way better than in prop. keep in mind, that the def doc bonuses are behind 5 CP. After the Vet-changes Vsturms in my opinion got GUTTED. They scale so badly into the game that even with debuffs and number advantages they loose against almost every C-Tier elite when they got the first CP unlock to buff them. They cant even bleed MP with nades, because there range is so bad. They just turn basicly into kamikaze AT troops with a good faust.

[MarKr]

Still completely ignore the other part of the "move Vsturms to Def" because it was followed by "put Grens to Prop" and this is where the doc becomes a fricking steamroll machine unless we change abilities and generally rebalance the whole thing.

Vsturms got hit too hard by the vet changes at first, where we put them to the A-tier. It got reported in feedback, we agreed the change hit them too hard and shifted them to B-tier. If you think they are still too weak, we can make further changes - we could increase the nerfs of propaganda abilities on enemy infantry to accomodate for the new, stronger vet system. The abilities were set up with the old vet bonuses in mind. We could even shift Vsturms to C-tier if needed because they start with pretty low stats so even stronger vet bonuses wouldn't catapult them to rambo-tier, we could apply some specific Vet bonuses for Vsturms to compensate the new vet system etc. If you come up with something reasonable, we will consider it.

[Sukin-kot (SVT)]

Could we instead get rid of those debuffing abilities besides tigerphobia for good? It is very questionable from the tactics perspective, as it's more efficient to invest ammo to stuff that actually kills your enemy (HE, Arty, Planes, Call ins, Weapon upgrades). Because in case your enemy retreats right after you threw a debuff it means wasted ammo for you.

For that reason those kind of abilities have never been popular in the mod. Blitzkrieg, for the fatherland, propaganda and etc. I've been playing BK for 10 years and barely even seen those abilities being used. CoH is simply not relevant for such mechanics, if there was the 4th type of resource for activation buffs/debuffs it could fly maybe. Otherwise ammo is simply too vital.

Moreover, I sincirely hate this mechanics as it gives me some sort of Dota 2 vibe - throw a magic spell and your enemy gets -10 armor. This is stupid and completely anticlimatic for a WW2 game.

[Warhawks97]

Still completely ignore the other part of the "move Vsturms to Def" because it was followed by "put Grens to Prop" and this is where the doc becomes a fricking steamroll machine unless we change abilities and generally rebalance the whole thing.

Vsturms got hit too hard by the vet changes at first, where we put them to the A-tier. It got reported in feedback, we agreed the change hit them too hard and shifted them to B-tier. If you think they are still too weak, we can make further changes - we could increase the nerfs of propaganda abilities on enemy infantry to accomodate for the new, stronger vet system. The abilities were set up with the old vet bonuses in mind. We could even shift Vsturms to C-tier if needed because they start with pretty low stats so even stronger vet bonuses wouldn't catapult them to rambo-tier, we could apply some specific Vet bonuses for Vsturms to compensate the new vet system etc. If you come up with something reasonable, we will consider it.

This is actually happening. Walderschmid is throwing Propaganda abilties on enemies that are just about of being attacked by friendly forces like Luftwaffe inf and enemie tanks.


These prop doc abilties dont change the outcome of a battle with Vsturm units vs other combat units. Esspecially not Elites. Meanwhile the abilties can be super abusive since they cost little ammo and have a short cooldown when you combine this with elite units from teammates. Like Luftwaffe or storms fighting commandos and commandos get constantly heavy debuffs due to constant prop doc ability spam. Thats what i meant when i said this doc feels a bit like playing SE doc and only being supportive.

Or you see a friendly Panther in danger? Throw propaganda on the enemie tank threatening it.

Could we instead get rid of those debuffing abilities besides tigerphobia for good? It is very questionable from the tactics perspective, as it's more efficient to invest ammo to stuff that actually kills your enemy (HE, Arty, Planes, Call ins, Weapon upgrades). Because in case your enemy retreats right after you threw a debuff it means wasted ammo for you.

For that reason those kind of abilities have never been popular in the mod. Blitzkrieg, for the fatherland, propaganda and etc. I've been playing BK for 10 years and barely even seen those abilities being used. CoH is simply not relevant for such mechanics, if there was the 4th type of resource for activation buffs/debuffs it could fly maybe. Otherwise ammo is simply too vital.

Moreover, I sincirely hate this mechanics as it gives me some sort of Dota 2 vibe - throw a magic spell and your enemy gets -10 armor. This is stupid and completely anticlimatic for a WW2 game.

II see it quite similiar. It often gives someone that sort of Magic game vibes. I have been playing Guild Wars, Warhammer and Dota 2 and i know such debuff abilties on strentgh/armor/vitality only from such games.

For the Fatherland can be usefull sometimes. Esspecially when i imagine we had Vsturm in this doc. The reason i barely use for the fatherland is actually the lack of units making use of it. Like using this ability for 1 Volksgren squad? But a group of 4 Vsturm under effect of "For the Fatherland" might be quite usefull.


As for Prop doc, to come back to the Grens, No one suggested them to be like the old once with STG by default and schrecks. They would carry packages of MP40´s and could utilize Flamethrowers and Flame grenades. So we are not suggesting to revive "KcH in Gren clothes".