The Elephant problem

[Consti255]

i dont know, i was saying the abilitys should get tuned down.
Also as you said, a doctrine based arround ambushes, thats where the JP fits in nicely as your top tier ambush tank.

Also the JP isnt as a brute force as you are saying. It gets reliable pened by 17 pounders and 90mm and aswell by handheld AT.
so i think its a good fitting unit and also way better fitting than the elephant.

Which is basicly the moveing bunker and completely against the the doctrine focus tbh.

[Warhawks97]

i dont know, i was saying the abilitys should get tuned down.
Also as you said, a doctrine based arround ambushes, thats where the JP fits in nicely as your top tier ambush tank.

Also the JP isnt as a brute force as you are saying. It gets reliable pened by 17 pounders and 90mm and aswell by handheld AT.
so i think its a good fitting unit and also way better fitting than the elephant.

Which is basicly the moveing bunker and completely against the the doctrine focus tbh.

The Jagdpanther is mainly an offensive force. I dont put it into ambush when i dont have to. If i need something to ambush, i get the IV/70 but i wouldnt dare to put a 800 MP tank into ambush lol. And most player use it as offensive weapon. It has Panther armor and speed and KT firepower. It is brute force. In combination with sector arty, firestorm, hummels and sabotage this unit will be plain OP. Why bothering playing any other doc but SE?

So really, a big no from my side. "Top tier ambush tank" sounds funny. I wouldnt spend 800 MP into something just to sit arround. Thats what i spend when i want to get into the offense.

[Frost]

i dont know, i was saying the abilitys should get tuned down.
Also as you said, a doctrine based arround ambushes, thats where the JP fits in nicely as your top tier ambush tank.

Also the JP isnt as a brute force as you are saying. It gets reliable pened by 17 pounders and 90mm and aswell by handheld AT.
so i think its a good fitting unit and also way better fitting than the elephant.

Which is basicly the moveing bunker and completely against the the doctrine focus tbh.

The Jagdpanther is mainly an offensive force. I dont put it into ambush when i dont have to. If i need something to ambush, i get the IV/70 but i wouldnt dare to put a 800 MP tank into ambush lol. And most player use it as offensive weapon. It has Panther armor and speed and KT firepower. It is brute force. In combination with sector arty, firestorm, hummels and sabotage this unit will be plain OP. Why bothering playing any other doc but SE?

So really, a big no from my side. "Top tier ambush tank" sounds funny. I wouldnt spend 800 MP into something just to sit arround. Thats what i spend when i want to get into the offense.

i personally think the fact jagdpanther rotate so fast as compare to anything else in the game is the reason why a lot of people prefer it over almost all Tds my problem with nashorn is the janky controls and the fact you really really need to pay attention to it and ambush it a kilometer away from the enemy just so you don't instantly die and even if you ambush and somehow managed to miss your shot enemy tanks gonna just go after you and kill you 1 shot which is why i hate nashorn controls so bloody much and don't get me started in case you got in range and somehow enemy moved just when you shot them and that's reload timer buddy and elefant you gotta be really dedicated to have it over nashorn you honestly have no other choice but to use nashorns if you want to be team effective elefant your teammates gonna rage on you and enemy laugh at you so even if you reduce price of elefant it might not be enough just rework of nashorn is the best scenario here tbqh.

there is also another good scenario that we can apply here, giving the faction 88mm or fortification of that.

side note: this problem seems to be happening only with nashorn people brought this up so many times in the past but it was never addressed nashron have some sort of problem that make it steal shot most often and aim the gun at weird angles that make no sense.

[Red]

Just a quick brainstorming from my side on the Nashorn:
Would an ambush + dig-in ability work with it? Something along the lines of: lose the option to turn to fire, but survive the first Sherman hit in Ambush?

[Walderschmidt]

Just a quick brainstorming from my side on the Nashorn:
Would an ambush + dig-in ability work with it? Something along the lines of: lose the option to turn to fire, but survive the first Sherman hit in Ambush?

I don’t like this. I’d prefer to give them 80 range and no ambush.

Wald

[Consti255]

Nashorn wirhout ambush would be not fitting thematicly and also would make it kinda senseless

[Redgaarden]

Also the JP isnt as a brute force as you are saying. It gets reliable pened by 17 pounders and 90mm and aswell by handheld AT.
so i think its a good fitting unit and also way better fitting than the elephant.

It gets penned. Survives the shot and one shots the pershing. If we lower its dmg so it doesn't one shot heavy tanks I wouldn't mind it as much. Or maybe make it so it gets oneshotted by pershing and 17 pounders.

I still think Elephant fits in nicely with the Doctrine. Elephant is slower, less armored and costs more than a jagdpanther which makes it a perfect fit for a doctrine that is not specialized in anti tank but still has options.

[Warhawks97]

It gets penned. Survives the shot and one shots the pershing. If we lower its dmg so it doesn't one shot heavy tanks I wouldn't mind it as much. Or maybe make it so it gets oneshotted by pershing and 17 pounders.

Jagdpanther still has 800 HO compared to normal Panthers 700. Thats why it survives it. Lowering gun damage is no option. Its the same gun KT/Nashorn/Elephant uses so why lowering damage. Guns got standardized years ago. Same gun, same stats. Its still bullshit that Jagdpanther/KT and Elephant still have only 75% accuracy while Panther and Tiger have 90% and Nashorn even 100% accuracy at all ranges.

The gun is meant to punch hard while being mobile. Take away its pen/damage and you would kill the reason people build it.


Such an elite tank hunter does not belong into casaul docs just because "this doc needs something". As i said, i never had issues with SE doc as long as it has Nashorns and Hetzers. I would rather add Panzer IV /H or Stug III in order to bolster its offensive means rather than adding an absolute elite tank killer unit.

I still think Elephant fits in nicely with the Doctrine. Elephant is slower, less armored and costs more than a jagdpanther which makes it a perfect fit for a doctrine that is not specialized in anti tank but still has options.

Yeah. I wouldnt even mind when this doc gets Nashorn and elephant while removing this shitty Panzer IV F2 unlock.

[Consti255]

Well, a HP nerf could come aswell tho. So i think it would be fine.
But yeah, i thought some people would agree here with me.
I also think the JP is a little bit underpresented in BK compared to other vehicles.

[Warhawks97]

Well, a HP nerf could come aswell tho. So i think it would be fine.
But yeah, i thought some people would agree here with me.
I also think the JP is a little bit underpresented in BK compared to other vehicles.

Just because its underrepresnted it doesnt mean it has to appear in all docs for low cost etc. Jagdpanther is a pretty specialized vehicle which you only need actually when expecting many Pershings and SP or playing vs RE tank spam. Other than that why would you get it?

Its unique in a doctrine and should stay this way.

[Krieger Blitzer]

Speaking of the JP, i don't support adding it to any other doctrines.. and i'm also against tweaking ANY of its current values or price.
And as mentioned, i like how the Elefant is early available in SE doc.

[Consti255]

Well, a HP nerf could come aswell tho. So i think it would be fine.
But yeah, i thought some people would agree here with me.
I also think the JP is a little bit underpresented in BK compared to other vehicles.

Just because its underrepresnted it doesnt mean it has to appear in all docs for low cost etc. Jagdpanther is a pretty specialized vehicle which you only need actually when expecting many Pershings and SP or playing vs RE tank spam. Other than that why would you get it?

Its unique in a doctrine and should stay this way.

I still wouldnt say it is a offensive force. Its a good unit for trading and area deny but pushing? Nah, you have no HE nor a rotateable turret. This thing gets murderd by enemy infnantry, mines or arty. Getting better vision to even camo that thing ist hard with all your Kettenkrads.
Also, since the PS changes i see TH so damn rare and the JP/JT even more rare. Its a big sad for me.

[Frost]

Well, a HP nerf could come aswell tho. So i think it would be fine.
But yeah, i thought some people would agree here with me.
I also think the JP is a little bit underpresented in BK compared to other vehicles.

Just because its underrepresnted it doesnt mean it has to appear in all docs for low cost etc. Jagdpanther is a pretty specialized vehicle which you only need actually when expecting many Pershings and SP or playing vs RE tank spam. Other than that why would you get it?

Its unique in a doctrine and should stay this way.

I still wouldnt say it is a offensive force. Its a good unit for trading and area deny but pushing? Nah, you have no HE nor a rotateable turret. This thing gets murderd by enemy infnantry, mines or arty. Getting better vision to even camo that thing ist hard with all your Kettenkrads.
Also, since the PS changes i see TH so damn rare and the JP/JT even more rare. Its a big sad for me.

we had this argument before JT is meme unit unless you play 1v1 or 2v2 scenario or very bad coordinated 3v3 under very special circumstances even when it had no fuel costs people were still hesitant to use it and you expect people to dump 150 fuel to get that one? HAH GOOD LUCK nothing but hey look cool unit to my estimation.

and normally people don't really know how really god TD's route that often expecting to mostly play on their own or not picking TS either way i personally was disappointed of how panthers behave in general they are actually quite garbage i would say PS TD route is the best right now. or if you really want tank route go for tigers, panther is very unreliable 1 bazooka rush can just kill it if you are not careful lol not to mention the whole 1 shot by 90mm thing .... i swear to god this fucking meme

[Warhawks97]

Well, a HP nerf could come aswell tho. So i think it would be fine.
But yeah, i thought some people would agree here with me.
I also think the JP is a little bit underpresented in BK compared to other vehicles.

Just because its underrepresnted it doesnt mean it has to appear in all docs for low cost etc. Jagdpanther is a pretty specialized vehicle which you only need actually when expecting many Pershings and SP or playing vs RE tank spam. Other than that why would you get it?

Its unique in a doctrine and should stay this way.

I still wouldnt say it is a offensive force. Its a good unit for trading and area deny but pushing? Nah, you have no HE nor a rotateable turret. This thing gets murderd by enemy infnantry, mines or arty. Getting better vision to even camo that thing ist hard with all your Kettenkrads.
Also, since the PS changes i see TH so damn rare and the JP/JT even more rare. Its a big sad for me.

Dude, it is an offensive force. It outranges all tanks, basically always pens and oneshots targets, is fast and superb front armor. You can also quickly escape with smoke.

99% of players that play TS doc just go for the standard Panther/Tiger route because its their meta. I play TS doc mainly without any tanks. Never build anything bigger as a Tank IV so far. I never ever went for Tigers and Panthers or unlocked the tank path. Only TD path. And so far i only got as far as Jagdpanzer IV/70.

When i am in the defensive i rather go Hetzers and Jagdpanzer IV IV/70´s but never Jagdpanther. I get Jagdpanther when i finally decide that i need a fast unit that can hit targets very hard from range and get away. I use it as long range firesupport for my infantry. But putting this thing into camo is a bonus but also a waste of ressources. Nashorn, Hetzers, Jagdpanzer IV/70´s... these units are more than capable when you need a defensive denial unit. But Jagdpanther is the go for when i have to hunt tanks instead of just ambushing them.

TS doc is sadly a doctrine that has a nice idea but in my opinion the unlock design is garbage and veeeeery poorly designed which is sad. But i actually alway

[Krieger Blitzer]

The jagdPanther is best used in ambush, because by the time it arrives.. it becomes very risky to rush without camo; as there would be 17pdr(s) & 90mm guns here and there.

Though; i'm not sure how you speak so confidently about the JP's role although you say that you never or "rarely" use it at all.

Also, there is nothing wrong if JP would take 1 hit from Pershing then kills Pershing.. because it's the counter to the Pershing in the first place.
JP should always have more HP than Panthers.

[Warhawks97]

The jagdPanther is best used in ambush, because by the time it arrives.. it becomes very risky to rush without camo; as there would be 17pdr(s) & 90mm guns here and there.

Though; i'm not sure how you speak so confidently about the JP's role although you say that you never or "rarely" use it at all.

Also, there is nothing wrong if JP would take 1 hit from Pershing then kills Pershing.. because it's the counter to the Pershing in the first place.
JP should always have more HP than Panthers.

I blame the doc layout for the Jagdpanther appear so rarely. As said, most play standard Panther meta. Thing is most of the time the IV/70 is enough to hold my ground. And unless there comes a real pershing spam and tons of churchills i see no reason to go for it. Cheap Hetzer+Panzer IV J and F1 spam is more than enough to beat any resistance.


Another reason i dont play Jagdpanther is due to its cost. Same for Tigers and Pershings. Too many eggs in one basket. Its just too risky. The Current panther prices are at the edge of what i am willing to pay.



@coolstantin: PE is the best faction for vision. Krad is my most spammed unit. I usually have like 3 or more fielded to make sure i find their recons and have vision controle. You spare a lot of ressources because you dont need many units if you always know where your enemie is. 1 inf squad or two, 1-2 20 mm cars, AT Puma and later on a tank or two. But krad is my core unit and you can rush it in front of your tanks. Whenever i make a tank push, i send in krads first. Jagdpanther+schwimmwagen/20 mm car+ krads is just an insane combo.

Did you watch the 3 vs 3 from whiteloki which erich uploaded? He got two Jagdpanthers and other TD. Total waste of res. Instead he only needed one Jagdpanther, one cheaper back up TD and enough krads and vehicles. But two Jagdpanthers without vision is just pointless.

[Consti255]

I get Jagdpanther when i finally decide that i need a fast unit that can hit targets very hard from range and get away.

Wired, you even support what i say lol, its not offensive, its good for def and good for trading. A backline unit which can help out.
You said it is a offensive tank, when i think about an offensive tank i think about a sherman or panther, which has armor and firepower vs Inf and tanks.
But no, the JP is clearly not an offensive tool...

[Warhawks97]

I get Jagdpanther when i finally decide that i need a fast unit that can hit targets very hard from range and get away.

Wired, you even support what i say lol, its not offensive, its good for def and good for trading. A backline unit which can help out.
You said it is a offensive tank, when i think about an offensive tank i think about a sherman or panther, which has armor and firepower vs Inf and tanks.
But no, the JP is clearly not an offensive tool...

dude, going for a hunt is going for an attack. This unit covers my inf against enemie tanks killng them asap. Esspecially jumbos, churchills etc. When i need a "help out unit" to clear mess behind the lines i would usually use something else. I wouldnt even wait to have 850 MP and instead invest in cheaper stuff that prevents me from getting into this messy situation. Many players end up in situations where these tanks have to help everywhere because they invested not enough to to prevent this situation from happening in the first place.

Tigers or panthers are sometimes not fast enpough or dont have the punch to get rid of jumbos that are like a wall to my inf and other units. As long as i am defensive, IV/70 is the unit of choice. From ambush it will deal well enough with mentioned targets and when you have enough of them. The Jagdpanther is needed when i actively try to engage them. So they come forward and blast whatever tank that is in my way and get away. So this is an offensive tank destroyer. It attacks tanks, not only waits for them. Its an acive unit that gives you the initative, not a reactive one. A unit doesnt need to be multirole capable to be an offensive unit.

[CGarr]

I think you guys are missing the point of why I suggested that the Elefant be moved to SE in the first place. It has heavy armor, unlike literally every other unit in that doc. It's job isn't to be a mainline unit, it is a niche doctrinal pick that you should only rush for in 3 scenarios:



1. The enemy player is spamming mediums.
- Most tanks just aren't gonna kill this fat bitch if it is supported against flanking (which only requires like 1 more mobile AT unit to do so effectively). I have watched single Elefants eat waves of player controlled Shermans, and even multiple Pershings on a couple occasions.
- Sure, theoretically, you can out-RNG it with tank spam in certain scenarios, but the level of micro that requires is generally ridiculous compared to the amount of brainpower the SE player needs to use an Elefant.
- It gives the SE player a good opportunity to puke arty all over your other units, so that you have to pick between losing your opportunity to kill the Elefant or losing units to arty. In that sense, it is a really good distraction/aggro magnet, which is something SE desperately needed. If you move often to avoid arty, it is effectively invincible.

2. The enemy is spamming TDs or AT guns.
- Simple, you use the Elefant as bait. Nothing short of multiple Jacksons will kill it quickly, and if you have support, they can't chase if you need to pull back. It's the perfect way to find enemy TD's (or kill them even). Only extremely patient allied players with good micro will stay ambushed long enough to get a shot on its ass, and those plays are fairly rewarded.
- Same principle applies for AT guns. Just creep forward, eat a shot, pull back if possible, and rain arty on the AT gun.

3. The enemy has heavy tanks.
- This thing is literally perfect for 1v1 boxing with enemy heavies. It gets camo, it has a big ass gun so bouncing is unlikely, and it has enough armor/health that you might actually live even if you don't kill the enemy heavy in 1 shot, so ambush isn't even 100% needed.
- With good micro and support, you can take on multiple heavies with it. Kill 1, use Elefant as bait for the other to flank and punish with a second AT unit. Literally fits the doctrine theme perfectly, since one of of SE's main themes is the use of traps and punishing enemy aggression.



With those reasons in mind, the Elefant is perfect where it is. If you get one onto the field, the entire map is pretty much yours if you take things slow, as this thing just doesn't die when used conservatively. People can shit out arty on it, but if they do so with off-map, you should generally be able to move before the majority of shells land, and that is a costly ability for the enemy to miss with. Same for rocket strafes, you can generally move just in time to get out of the way if you are vigilant. If they use on-map, the Elefant is doing its job perfectly, as that opens up an opportunity for you to counter arty them back to the stone age. If they use tanks, the overall trade is probably not going to go in their favor for reasons mentioned above, as they are pretty much guaranteed to lose way more than you unless you aren't paying attention at all. Using heavies against an Elefant is even worse for them if you manage to survive, as you can easily set them back 300 fuel.

If you lose it, you should be punished, and the high cost does so quite well. If you guys want to try decreasing the cost, have fun playing against it. If you move it, we go back to square 1. SE doesn't have jack shit else in the way of durable units and thus would require way too much micro in 1v1 to be a reasonable pick against a similarly skilled player. If you look back at my original suggestion, that was my main argument. No other unit fits the role better without bringing their own set of new problems:



- JP is still expensive, and arguably easier to kill than an Elefant, you actually have a fair chance against it head-on with multiple shermans.
- JT is ungodly expensive and dies to the same shit as an Elefant. On top of that, it doesn't even have camo, so have fun trying to bait an allied player to walk their heavy into it.
- A Tiger 1 could work, but you'd need a pak43 or something to deal with heavies, as the Tiger just doesn't trade well with Pershings in terms of res long term. In other words, its a dramatic change but possible, Elefant is proven to at least not be OP though so it's a safer bet.
- I think I suggested a captured Churchill when I first made the suggestion, but you'd need a nash or Pak43 to deal with heavies and idk if its feasible from a technical perspective due to lack of captured Churchill textures.



There is no unrefutable reason to change the Elefant in SE in terms of price/performance, and no more fitting tank to replace it. With that in mind, I acknowledge the problems you guys might be having, but it'd be a lot more productive to focus your attention on fixing said problem by some other means. Here are some possible options off the top of my head if people don't like the gameplay style the Elefant requires:



A. Replace the Elefant unlock with a global vehicle camo unlock, it fits the theme. The captured Firefly with ambush instead of stationary firing pos would be a great heavy killer for a reasonable reasonable price. The Firefly has a big enough gun to pen heavies and you'd have enough leftover to get a shreck squad to finish the job. P4 F2 with ambush makes for a better defensive wall late game than Hetzers since it has HE. 37mm HT with camo makes heavy pushes scary, but is counterable with a screen of lighter units. This option would achieve the goal of preventing SE from getting steamrolled by armor, as the allied player would have to be much more wary when pushing with tanks due to the sheer amount of camo'd guns they might walk into.

B. Move the emphasis towards infantry but give SE something for MP income so that they don't get fucked as hard by MP bleed. Fuel to MP swap could be interesting, call it "mobilize reinforcements" or something. Throw in a Pak43 (movable, no emplaced option) where the Hetzer is and just have the doc center entirely around whether you want to contribute your fuel to more muni or more MP. Obviously a dramatic change, but accomplishes the same goal as the Elefant since you have the sustainability and AT power to survive late game, only difference is you get that sustainability through a wall of bodies rather than a beefy tank.

C. Give SE the option to let their AT inf crawl and place mines via the sabotage squad unlock. Have the sabotage squad unlock speed up mine placement globally by a large amount. Give the AT squad on SE a second shreck so they can actually finish off a tank if they manage to ambush. Provides SE with a scary, effective AT option without juggling tanks around between docs.

[MEFISTO]

SE needs Narshons more than Elephant (a expensive and slow unit) easy to inmovilice and hard to replace because it’s high price, after a los like this SE is naked vs any decent armor, plus all res you lost in this Elephant.