76 Sherman CP Unlock

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MEFISTO
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Re: 76 Sherman CP Unlock

Postby MEFISTO » 06 Nov 2019, 06:37

Warhawks97 wrote:Hopefully you have noticed that Tank III´s cost currently less than shermans. F2 less than normal 75 mm sherman, H and J can be spammed also quite cheap.

The US cant spam more shermans than axis can spam Tank IV´s. When compare Mass production on US side, then compare pls to axis massproduction as well. The US dont get a longer barreld tank like germans get the F2 for now. So yes, buff of 76 gun against tank IV´s is almost a must happen now bc Tank IV´s are cheaper, the basic long barrled version doesnt cost CP and yet they can go 1 vs 1 with equal/better armor and better guns.



The E8 prior to mass production unlock costs just 160 MP less than a Panther D. But the Panther bounces 17 pdrs almost as good as shermans bounce 50 mm pak, even better. The 17 pdr has a 53,1% chance to pen Panther D without skirts. The 50 mm pens easy eight with 38,8065% at max range and with 40% against normal 76 version.



So, where exactly do i make you laugh? I am sorry if you are unable to get these things straight and that you dont get the sense behind it.

Here we go my friend: All my comparison here will be between BK doc and Armor where we can spam Shermans and PIV (only J/H available in BK dock) but the same price for shermans in all doctrines with no Mass production upgrade, and PIV F2.
--------------Before Mass production:
*PIII-430mp/50f---------Sherman 75mm-410mp/40f
*PIV F2 long barrel-390mp/40f (same price for now as the short barrel in propaganda doctrine) {we need to look for a caind of balance here between 75 sherman and PIV F2 since you can deploy them at the same time} but don't forget by that time Armor has M10 with no CP unlock needed.
*PIV J-410mp/45f-------Sherman 76mm-450mp/55f
PIV H-550mp/65f-------Sherman E8 76mm-500mp/70f
*PIV comander -550mp/70f (it's fine becouse units buff)
--------------- MASS PRODUCTION
*PIII-430mp/50f( no change)------Sherman 75mm-350mp/30f
*PIV F2-360mp/35f
*PIV J-410mp/45f(no change)-------Sherman 76mm 380mp/45
*PIV H-525mp/55f------------------Sherman E8-400mp/52f (plus one time 25f upgrade to be able to produce them)
no way to compare a Sherman E8 price with the cheaper Panther 680mp/110f
Overall It's Pretty balanced Except for the CP unlock since you can spam Shermans faster than PIV, if you want to talk about unit maintenance (fuel/mp) don't foget that Allies have the supply yard that will buff your MP and Fuel.

*1CP to unlock shermans vs 4CP PIV J/H unlock
*2CP shermans mass production. In total you will need 3CP to spam shermans, So Shermans 76 can come to the field at this price at the same time you unlock your PIV J/H.
*3CPneeded for Pz Mass production in total you will need 7CP to spam them
Now we can talk about balance.....
Last edited by MEFISTO on 06 Nov 2019, 18:38, edited 8 times in total.

kwok
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Re: 76 Sherman CP Unlock

Postby kwok » 06 Nov 2019, 06:42

Jesus this thread is a headache to read through... it’s clear the implications of changing the CP of 76shermans is huge. So for the sake of giving a “dev responses won’t be touched for some time. We will revisit this after doctrine reworks as this will need to be rebalanced when other doctrine changes start rolling out. Feel free to keep discussing but don’t be surprised that Sherman’s didn’t get their CP adjusted the next patch. We read your proposals and still aren’t comfortable making the change with so many differing opinions on how to execute.

MEFISTO
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Re: 76 Sherman CP Unlock

Postby MEFISTO » 06 Nov 2019, 06:53

kwok wrote:Jesus this thread is a headache to read through... it’s clear the implications of changing the CP of 76shermans is huge. So for the sake of giving a “dev responses won’t be touched for some time. We will revisit this after doctrine reworks as this will need to be rebalanced when other doctrine changes start rolling out. Feel free to keep discussing but don’t be surprised that Sherman’s didn’t get their CP adjusted the next patch. We read your proposals and still aren’t comfortable making the change with so many differing opinions on how to execute.

I am sorry :D I am not that good making post :D :lol:

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idliketoplaybetter
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Re: 76 Sherman CP Unlock

Postby idliketoplaybetter » 06 Nov 2019, 10:03

MEFISTO wrote: where we can spam Shermans


Have you even encountered it much? I do accept fact, that in a game with unproportial balance between players (especially 3v3), 2 players are holding 1 is banking and going for it.., but aside of that.

Is this really what numbers saying? This "we can" makes me uncomfortable. It's like all such games are made in a complete isolation from PE/TH and Hetzers, the unit that comes both early and spammable not in theory, but practicaly.

On paper, pz3 is even more expensive, though it still capable of coming first at the time m8 around.

M4 75 is a bit earlier though its prior counter from axis F2 is not that far and normally has no issues dealing with it.

I'm really not into making Shermans cheaper/PZ4 just expensive, but opinions i hear are just, i dunno, call it for lack of objectivity would say nothing.
"You can argue only with like-minded people"

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Warhawks97
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Re: 76 Sherman CP Unlock

Postby Warhawks97 » 06 Nov 2019, 19:43

mofetagalactica wrote:
Warhawks97 wrote:Hopefully you have noticed that Tank III´s cost currently less than shermans. F2 less than normal 75 mm sherman, H and J can be spammed also quite cheap.

The US cant spam more shermans than axis can spam Tank IV´s. When compare Mass production on US side, then compare pls to axis massproduction as well. The US dont get a longer barreld tank like germans get the F2 for now. So yes, buff of 76 gun against tank IV´s is almost a must happen now bc Tank IV´s are cheaper, the basic long barrled version doesnt cost CP and yet they can go 1 vs 1 with equal/better armor and better guns.



The E8 prior to mass production unlock costs just 160 MP less than a Panther D. But the Panther bounces 17 pdrs almost as good as shermans bounce 50 mm pak, even better. The 17 pdr has a 53,1% chance to pen Panther D without skirts. The 50 mm pens easy eight with 38,8065% at max range and with 40% against normal 76 version.



So, where exactly do i make you laugh? I am sorry if you are unable to get these things straight and that you dont get the sense behind it.


This is a little bit exagerated this problem isn't really a "must happen now" the only problem that we have so far is just the sherman 76w/e8 coming earlier than pz4's J/H, and the 75mm US guns (sherman/chaffe) working like shit againts early pz4 armor and stugs 3/4.

The shermans 76w/E8 (if delayed) would only need to be a little bit better than pz4 H/J not a huge difference, but a little bit better.

About the 50 mm max distance pen chance againts E8 i think it should be a little lower to like 30% and i wouldn't really touch the chances againts normal 76w since it will share same armor than 75mm sherman but i would only go as far at leaving them with 38,8065% at max range.



Thats my saying or lets say my actual goal.






MEFISTO wrote:
Warhawks97 wrote:Hopefully you have noticed that Tank III´s cost currently less than shermans. F2 less than normal 75 mm sherman, H and J can be spammed also quite cheap.

The US cant spam more shermans than axis can spam Tank IV´s. When compare Mass production on US side, then compare pls to axis massproduction as well. The US dont get a longer barreld tank like germans get the F2 for now. So yes, buff of 76 gun against tank IV´s is almost a must happen now bc Tank IV´s are cheaper, the basic long barrled version doesnt cost CP and yet they can go 1 vs 1 with equal/better armor and better guns.



The E8 prior to mass production unlock costs just 160 MP less than a Panther D. But the Panther bounces 17 pdrs almost as good as shermans bounce 50 mm pak, even better. The 17 pdr has a 53,1% chance to pen Panther D without skirts. The 50 mm pens easy eight with 38,8065% at max range and with 40% against normal 76 version.



So, where exactly do i make you laugh? I am sorry if you are unable to get these things straight and that you dont get the sense behind it.

Here we go my friend: All my comparison here will be between BK doc and Armor where we can spam Shermans and PIV (only J/H available in BK dock) but the same price for shermans in all doctrines with no Mass production upgrade, and PIV F2.
--------------Before Mass production:
*PIII-430mp/50f---------Sherman 75mm-410mp/40f
*PIV F2 long barrel-390mp/40f (same price for now as the short barrel in propaganda doctrine) {we need to look for a caind of balance here between 75 sherman and PIV F2 since you can deploy them at the same time} but don't forget by that time Armor has M10 with no CP unlock needed.
*PIV J-410mp/45f-------Sherman 76mm-450mp/55f
PIV H-550mp/65f-------Sherman E8 76mm-500mp/70f
*PIV comander -550mp/70f (it's fine becouse units buff)
--------------- MASS PRODUCTION
*PIII-430mp/50f( no change)------Sherman 75mm-350mp/30f
*PIV F2-360mp/35f
*PIV J-410mp/45f(no change)-------Sherman 76mm 380mp/45
*PIV H-525mp/55f------------------Sherman E8-400mp/52f (plus one time 25f upgrade to be able to produce them)
no way to compare a Sherman E8 price with the cheaper Panther 680mp/110f
Overall It's Pretty balanced Except for the CP unlock since you can spam Shermans faster than PIV, if you want to talk about unit maintenance (fuel/mp) don't foget that Allies have the supply yard that will buff your MP and Fuel.

*1CP to unlock shermans vs 4CP PIV J/H unlock
*2CP shermans mass production. In total you will need 3CP to spam shermans, So Shermans 76 can come to the field at this price at the same time you unlock your PIV J/H.
*3CPneeded for Pz Mass production in total you will need 7CP to spam them
Now we can talk about balance.....





I will start a new Topic about tank IV´s.

MEFISTO
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Re: 76 Sherman CP Unlock

Postby MEFISTO » 06 Nov 2019, 21:16

I love this game! I just want a balance game ,when we talk about balance we need (all of us) to be more careful, we just can’t tray to buff a side and Nerf the other without take the time to see what need be change with a strong argument, each factions have advantages and disadvantages.

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Viper
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Re: 76 Sherman CP Unlock

Postby Viper » 07 Nov 2019, 11:10

all that is needed to solve this panzer4/76 sherman disbalance is to make pz4 earlier by 1 or 2 command points in blitzkrieg doctrine or delay 76 shermans by 1 or 2 points in american doctrines.......dont see why we need long arguments about it.

but i think devs will keep this problem aside (and the tank destroyer camo problem too) until they finish the rework........and i think this is bad thing to do, because in my opinion problems like this will discourage some players from playing the beta at all.

CGarr
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Re: 76 Sherman CP Unlock

Postby CGarr » 07 Nov 2019, 11:36

Viper wrote:all that is needed to solve this panzer4/76 sherman disbalance is to make pz4 earlier by 1 or 2 command points in blitzkrieg doctrine or delay 76 shermans by 1 or 2 points in american doctrines.......dont see why we need long arguments about it.

but i think devs will keep this problem aside (and the tank destroyer camo problem too) until they finish the rework........and i think this is bad thing to do, because in my opinion problems like this will discourage some players from playing the beta at all.


Most of the people that are actively participating here on the forum have played the beta quite a bit but the general consensus seems to be that this is not an urgent issue, so it makes sense to wait on it. Have you tried the beta much/at all recently? Pz4 F2's are pretty easily spammable right now at 30 fuel on BK doc yet generally go 50/50 against the much more expensive 76 shermans and easy 8's. With AP they even perform well against jumbos in my experience, although by that point panthers might be a better investment to deal with the inevitable pershings.

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mofetagalactica
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Re: 76 Sherman CP Unlock

Postby mofetagalactica » 08 Nov 2019, 16:38

Viper wrote:all that is needed to solve this panzer4/76 sherman disbalance is to make pz4 earlier by 1 or 2 command points in blitzkrieg doctrine or delay 76 shermans by 1 or 2 points in american doctrines.......dont see why we need long arguments about it.

but i think devs will keep this problem aside (and the tank destroyer camo problem too) until they finish the rework........and i think this is bad thing to do, because in my opinion problems like this will discourage some players from playing the beta at all.



????????????????????????????????? Dude there's a reason why devs said to avoid playing unfinished docs on the beta lol.

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Warhawks97
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Re: 76 Sherman CP Unlock

Postby Warhawks97 » 08 Nov 2019, 18:46

Viper wrote:all that is needed to solve this panzer4/76 sherman disbalance is to make pz4 earlier by 1 or 2 command points in blitzkrieg doctrine or delay 76 shermans by 1 or 2 points in american doctrines.......dont see why we need long arguments about it.



1. Going 2 CP Tank IV like before would result in people keep going for the very same meta by rushing, then spamming Tank IV´s and abuse its armor.

2. We cant make 76 shermans costing 3 or 4 CP when the 0 CP Pz IV F2 can deal with them. It would be like making F2 costing 3 CP and Firefly costing 0 CP. Not fair i would say.


but i think devs will keep this problem aside (and the tank destroyer camo problem too) until they finish the rework........and i think this is bad thing to do, because in my opinion problems like this will discourage some players from playing the beta at all.



Bc right now there is no "problem".

And the TD camo: Just yesterday i played with kwok and one of his TD´s shot against Walds Jumbo. And just shortly after, like a second or so, the TD went camo although jumbo and staghound quite close to it already. So yeah, TD´s going ambush mid fight, one second after firing a shot, remains a problem, i agree.

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Viper
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Re: 76 Sherman CP Unlock

Postby Viper » 08 Nov 2019, 19:07

Warhawks97 wrote:1. Going 2 CP Tank IV like before would result in people keep going for the very same meta by rushing, then spamming Tank IV´s and abuse its armor.

2. We cant make 76 shermans costing 3 or 4 CP when the 0 CP Pz IV F2 can deal with them. It would be like making F2 costing 3 CP and Firefly costing 0 CP. Not fair i would say.

1.panzer4 ausf.h at 2 command points was not spammable......it was only spammable via the off.map support call.in

2.are you comparing f2 to firefly?????
firefly can kill heavy axis tanks.......f2 is very mediocre tank barely handle anything above shermans.

Warhawks97 wrote:Bc right now there is no "problem".

And the TD camo: Just yesterday i played with kwok and one of his TD´s shot against Walds Jumbo. And just shortly after, like a second or so, the TD went camo although jumbo and staghound quite close to it already. So yeah, TD´s going ambush mid fight, one second after firing a shot, remains a problem, i agree.


but it is totally fine for the jackson & hellcat to suddenly vanish into thin air against axis tanks......that is the problem i was referring to.
how long is it going to take until allied tds would take as much long time to hide as axis tds take right now?
because now it's a big disbalance.......allied tds have bigger advantage.

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Warhawks97
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Re: 76 Sherman CP Unlock

Postby Warhawks97 » 08 Nov 2019, 21:54

Viper wrote:

1.panzer4 ausf.h at 2 command points was not spammable......it was only spammable via the off.map support call.in


with both... many ways to spam them. If you didnt go straight for tigers and sparing res, you could spam the enemie into the ground.

2.are you comparing f2 to firefly?????
firefly can kill heavy axis tanks.......f2 is very mediocre tank barely handle anything above shermans.


no i dont. You totally missed the point. What i said is that F2 can beat 76 shermans. A firefly can beat Tank IV´s. So paying 4 CP for a 76 sherman that can lose to a 0 CP F2 is like you would pay 3 CP for a F2 just to lose it against a firefly that would cost 0. Or to make it look less drasitcally: Your demand is like i would demand 3 CP´s for an F2 while the 76 would cost 0 CP. Thats the kind of thing i had in mind. I didnt mention heavy tanks.




but it is totally fine for the jackson & hellcat to suddenly vanish into thin air against axis tanks......that is the problem i was referring to.
how long is it going to take until allied tds would take as much long time to hide as axis tds take right now?
because now it's a big disbalance.......allied tds have bigger advantage.




Well, fine. I thought you came up again to make axis disappear every once in a second mid fight. My bad.
Last edited by Warhawks97 on 09 Nov 2019, 10:26, edited 3 times in total.

MEFISTO
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Re: 76 Sherman CP Unlock

Postby MEFISTO » 09 Nov 2019, 01:52

I would like to add 1cp only in Armor Dock because it is easy to spam them and let others doctrines as they are since they can't spam Shermas because the price, and make the sherman 75 better performance vs PIII and PIV F2 and stugIII but not vs stugIV since you need CP to unlock them, now if you nerf the stugIV vs 75mm it wont have noting to do vs 76mm Shermans that I think is balance now 76mm Sherman vs StugIV.

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mofetagalactica
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Re: 76 Sherman CP Unlock

Postby mofetagalactica » 09 Nov 2019, 05:26

MEFISTO wrote:I would like to add 1cp only in Armor Dock because it is easy to spam them and let others doctrines as they are since they can't spam Shermas because the price, and make the sherman 75 better performance vs PIII and PIV F2 and stugIII but not vs stugIV since you need CP to unlock them, now if you nerf the stugIV vs 75mm it wont have noting to do vs 76mm Shermans that I think is balance now 76mm Sherman vs StugIV.


So 75mm shermans are good agains what kind of tanks? There's a big difference of what a 76w could do and what a stugiv would do in reality so i don't think no one would ever say that 76mm sherman vs stugIV should be the ideal "balance" lol.

What warhawks and everyone thinks is that 75mm shermans and 76mm shermans should be better in-game with 76w being delayed because these 76mm mounted on shermans were only seen late in the war at July of 1944.

I do share the same belief than warhawks i just don't want it to be applied or taking into account now because there are still a lot of changes coming and metas to develop to see how they impact in game with current stats.

MEFISTO
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Re: 76 Sherman CP Unlock

Postby MEFISTO » 09 Nov 2019, 17:15

mofetagalactica wrote:
MEFISTO wrote:I would like to add 1cp only in Armor Dock because it is easy to spam them and let others doctrines as they are since they can't spam Shermas because the price, and make the sherman 75 better performance vs PIII and PIV F2 and stugIII but not vs stugIV since you need CP to unlock them, now if you nerf the stugIV vs 75mm it wont have noting to do vs 76mm Shermans that I think is balance now 76mm Sherman vs StugIV.


So 75mm shermans are good agains what kind of tanks? There's a big difference of what a 76w could do and what a stugiv would do in reality so i don't think no one would ever say that 76mm sherman vs stugIV should be the ideal "balance" lol.

What warhawks and everyone thinks is that 75mm shermans and 76mm shermans should be better in-game with 76w being delayed because these 76mm mounted on shermans were only seen late in the war at July of 1944.

I do share the same belief than warhawks i just don't want it to be applied or taking into account now because there are still a lot of changes coming and metas to develop to see how they impact in game with current stats.

Easy 75mm Sherman is a beast with HE rounds excellent vs infantry an buildings and easy to spam in armor dock if you want to make them excellent vs medium armor also wtf? and when I talk about balance between 76mm Sherman and stugIV is because stugIV is a TH an has a flat chassis and 76 mm a excellent main gun

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Warhawks97
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Re: 76 Sherman CP Unlock

Postby Warhawks97 » 09 Nov 2019, 17:34

Alright, explain me Mefisto. What are players supposed to do when Panzer IV F2 rolls out, then the second and accomponied by some cheap sort of anti inf while your 76 sherman would cost 3 CP? Despite this, all tanks can take on infantry quite decently since their HE works.


As US you wouldnt really have something despite sitting behind your AT guns. You get the 76 asap for 2 CP or perhaps M10. But M10 cant go 1 vs 1 against it so you choose 76 sherman. In your propsal this essential tool of survival to have at least any means to handle F2 would cost 2-4 CP depending on doc or 3-4 CP. And thats just good enough to handle the F2. But if, as you suggest, your enemie gets Tank IV H after 2 CP, you end up in big trouble when you still dont even have your 76 unlocked. In worst case you spend 3 CP on a 76 shermans while your enemie has F2 and Stug IV´s in an ambush.

The only way to balance this is to make the 75 mm sherman effective against all early Tank IV models. As axis you can still throw F2 and stug III´s out, all for 0 CP. And at that stage of the game, HE tanks are not the only thing that can take out inf. So you dont get any advantage out of that HE sherman when it gets dismantled by stugs and Tank IV´s while your 76 sherman is still CP´s away.


But let me guess, you would spam so many 75 shermans with HE against Tank IV F2 untill it dies to the damage done by HE over time. I see, thats an excellent strategy for the future.

MEFISTO
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Re: 76 Sherman CP Unlock

Postby MEFISTO » 09 Nov 2019, 18:50

I am not going to explain it again I have talk about it in the same post, MAKE SHERMAN 75mm BETTER PERFORMANCE VS PIV F2 AND STUGIII AND PANZER III(ONLY)

MenciusMoldbug
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Re: 76 Sherman CP Unlock

Postby MenciusMoldbug » 10 Nov 2019, 08:21

Well, problem with churchill is that it's not using correct armor values and there is no MK 7 churchill except the churchill crocodile. I would split the difference between the early churchills and late churchills. Have the late version churchill buildable in the armor truck as a normal tank and not as a one-off-special. Have the early churchill have weaker armor, be cheaper, and maybe even make it's gun fire slightly faster because of how poor it's main weapon functions as it is. The early 6 pounder churchill could than be a cheap HE tank for RE. Late churchill could be the armor sponge. So there would no longer be a problem for F2's to fight the early churchills.

Edit: I meant to post this in the luft rework thread my bad.


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