5.1.8. beta (Doctrine rework, update 2)

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MarKr
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Re: 5.1.8. beta (Doctrine rework, update 2)

Postby MarKr » 14 Jun 2019, 14:02

Tiger1996 wrote:#Bugs:

- G43 upgrade for Grenadiers in Def doc.. is invisible in their hands, with no sound or animation.

- Flak88 (naked version) can't be constructed, even after the unlock.

- Pak40 emplacement has no tear-down time.

- PantherTurm has "special abilities" menu but it does nothing.

- Elefant ALRS ability is actually available at Vet2, not Vet3 as the description says... Which is fine, so just fix the description.
Also, the ability functions are all correct.. except that it behaves as if the Elefant has a turret, which means that it can shoot a target sideways, or even a target behind it, without having to rotate itself.

- Mass Production doesn't reduce MP price for any Pz4 tank.

Thanks for the reports, I will check it.

Tiger1996 wrote:- The way how Grille shoots, has been actually changed? Well, i'm fine with the change.. but why there isn't anything about this in the change-log?
Or is it only me who can't see any mention of this?
I can see some points of the changelog are missing. We had normal changelog (all changes in one long list) and it seems some logs were forgotten when we were making the "step-by-step" changelog. I will check the first post and fill in any missing logs.
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EDIT:
Changes in the first post updated - tweaked/added logs are marked with a start ( * )
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EDIT II:
Black Panther wrote:Mass weaponry upgrade seems to be found nowhere, no button in WSC anymore.
You were right, will be fixed.
Tiger1996 wrote:#Bugs:
- Mass Production doesn't reduce MP price for any Pz4 tank.
- G43 upgrade for Grenadiers in Def doc.. is invisible in their hands, with no sound or animation.
- PantherTurm has "special abilities" menu but it does nothing.
I cannot confirm these reports. Grenadiers for me show G43 rifles as they should:
20190614182946_1.jpg
Pantherturm has for me no built menu:
20190614184225_1.jpg
And Mass Production lowers the cost of PIV H as it should.
Did you play the beta with addons? If so, I would recommend disabling them when playing Beta.
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Re: 5.1.8. beta (Doctrine rework, update 2)

Postby Tiger1996 » 15 Jun 2019, 08:50

MarKr wrote:
Tiger1996 wrote:#Bugs:
- Mass Production doesn't reduce MP price for any Pz4 tank.
- G43 upgrade for Grenadiers in Def doc.. is invisible in their hands, with no sound or animation.
- PantherTurm has "special abilities" menu but it does nothing.
I cannot confirm these reports.
Did you play the beta with addons? If so, I would recommend disabling them when playing Beta.

You are right, my bad... I tried again without the Historical Add-On and those 3 bugs were no more.

However, the rest are still there;
Tiger1996 wrote:#Bugs:

- Flak88 (naked version) can't be constructed, even after the unlock.

- Pak40 emplacement has no tear-down time.

- Elefant ALRS ability is actually available at Vet2, not Vet3 as the description says... Which is fine, so just fix the description.
Also, the ability functions are all correct.. except that it behaves as if the Elefant has a turret, which means that it can shoot a target sideways, or even a target behind it, without having to rotate itself.

And btw, the naked version of the Flak88 was unlocked by PantherTurm or I think by some other unlock from the Arty branch somehow...
I mean, it's still possible to have this thing unlocked, but not via the 88 unlock...

Also, the Pak40 emplacement is available without upgrading the 3rd phase? I think it shouldn't be available earlier than the mobile Pak40 AT gun.

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Re: 5.1.8. beta (Doctrine rework, update 2)

Postby MarKr » 15 Jun 2019, 10:22

@Tiger: Yes, I said that I only couldn't confirm those quoted reports. The others will be fixed.

@people who ask for lower ammo upkeeps: As we said before the upkeeps can be adjusted but when you request this, keep in mind that the reason for introducing this was to make the usage of arty units a decision instead of "always go for them". It should make people think about if there is perhaps some cheaper or more cost-efficient way to destroy/kill whatever you want to throw the arty at. Isn't it from the long-time perspective cheaper to use off map arty (if there is some available)? Wouldn't it be cheaper to send some smoke from mortars there and deal with the opponent with direct-shooting units instead of sending arty at one emplacement? If I have low ammo income, wouldn't it be better to use some arty unit with less ammo upkeep rather than the strongest stuff I have (StuH instead of StuPa, Scott instead of 105mm howitzer etc.) and get something stronger later when I cap more map and OP ammo points? Do I really need 2 (or more) static howitzers at this map with this ammo income? Isn't 1 enough?

When you ask for lowering ammo upkeep, won't it lead to (largely) neglecting this decision making and instead it comes back to "I just build it because...why not"?

Could you also, please, upload some PvP replays, showing the problem, so we can take a look and analyze it?
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Re: 5.1.8. beta (Doctrine rework, update 2)

Postby Black Panther » 15 Jun 2019, 10:43

I am building rocket artillery just to counter heavy infantry builds and enemy support units, such as AT, MG or Snipers with a bullet-proof armor.
The problem with upkeep is just building it, like taking a loan with high percentage. It would be less a pain, if you just could rise the ammo required for each ability activation. Even if you get more cap points with munies, to allow yourself something better, your old stuff must be sent to die and most of the times, it's just not cost-effective, not even talking about how this is affect your game, saving yourself even more on basic stuff, like bars for riflemen or armor skirts of Stug.

Tiger1996 wrote:2nd game, same teams.. but this time me and Red went Axis.
download/file.php?id=3092

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Re: 5.1.8. beta (Doctrine rework, update 2)

Postby Tiger1996 » 15 Jun 2019, 10:55

Tiger1996 wrote:
MarKr wrote:- Added ammunition upkeep to artillery units:

1-- Pack howitzer, LeiG18, Autocar, Scott: 5 munition

2-- Calli Jeep/Sherman, Maultier, 150mm Nebels, 95mm Cromwell/Churchill, 25 pounders: 8 munition

3-- 105mm arty (US/WM howitzers), Priests, Wespe, Stuka HT, Hotchkiss, 105 Sherman, StuH42: 12 munition

4-- 210mm Nebels, Hummels, Sturmtiger, Grille, StuPa: 15 munition

1_Pack howitzer, Leig.18, etc »»» 3 ammo upkeep.

2_Calli jeep, Maultier, etc »»» 5 ammo upkeep.

3_105 howitzers (alone) »»» 12 ammo upkeep.
While the rest; Wespe, Priest, Stuh, etc »»» 7 ammo upkeep.

4_Stupa, 210 Nebels, etc »»» 9 ammo upkeep.

As I suggested before, the ammo upkeep(s) are - in principle - very fine.. but they are exaggerated, thus... I would tune them down but keep 105mm howitzers the most expensive in terms of ammo upkeep, for a couple of reasons:
1) 105 howitzers are very cheap to build.
2) They are unlimited now.
3) Have highest range...

And that's it so far.

On a different note though; what really bothers me the most about the BETA currently, is the Stug4/Pz4 availability in Blitz doc...
Hope to see you addressing this on the next BETA update.

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Re: 5.1.8. beta (Doctrine rework, update 2)

Postby Warhawks97 » 15 Jun 2019, 14:49

@Markr:

Upkeep was to prevent spam, no we cant even use a single thing..

Problems:
1. Now you cant do anything once you got a single arty unit when you play maps (often revised) with low ammo income or with ammo points at contested areas. You get one arty unit just to get rid of the heaviest camp situation or to force your enemie to move a bit prior to an attack and the result is that you have no ammo left for abilties and weapon upgrades which severaly limits the strenght of non arty units. So at the end, once you got just one arty unit, you just keep sparing ammo.
2. Often arty is essential for all these epic comebacks. Taking out a cruicial target and then the "real fight" begins. But now, once getting pushed back a bit, you get "death camped" by your enemie bc he knows that there is not much you can do anymore. He gets the "MP lead" and thus more units and faster tec. To counter that and to get back into game and to neutralize a bit of the MP lead arty is needed. But in order to use arty at all you already need 50% map controle for sufficient ammo supply. So the initial winners of the early to mid stage can just death camp their opponents even more effective than before. They themselves suffer from upkeep as well, but they dont need it that much and still have enough to bomb the remains of their enemies.
3. I played pvp and saw pvp streams (and played vs bots) and often income was like 30 or something in 2 vs 2 games. I imagine a howitzer would cost 5 upkeep per min. Expecting the game to last 30 mins I would be able to fire every two mins a salvo from the first to the last min (bc 50 ammo per barrage, 25 income left). I dont think its too much bc a) I dont have 30 ammo per min from first to last min and b) I need ammo for upgrades. A single HE tank costs 90 ammo already which means the income of almost 4 min is gone. Add grenades, mortar barrages, infantry weapons and I wont be able to make more than roughly 3 barrages in a 2 vs 2 game of 30 mins which for the most part is perhaps a stalemate. But we have an upkeep of over 10 for an howitzer and thus the income dropping to below 20. A barrage cost 50 ammo. Thats what i mean when i say that this upkeep is not just preventing spam, it denies the use of arty anything bigger than 75 mm entirely in a 2 vs 2 game. And 2 vs 2 games can become veery campy sometimes.

There need to be possibility to use arty and normal units together, else arty is pointless if you cant equip your remaining units so that they can attack. Its like "oh, i broke their defense but i have nothing to make us of it."

I would cut the upkeep by half (howitzer 5 upkeep) and if neccessary increase their built cost a bit.

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Re: 5.1.8. beta (Doctrine rework, update 2)

Postby MarKr » 15 Jun 2019, 22:01

I watched most of the linked replay (I had to leave so I did not finish it but watched to about 55th minute) and the US side seemed to have less issues with ammo but I would say it was due to better ammo upkeep management. They built OPs on some ammo points, did not go for arty units when they could not sustain them or when they did not need them.

Axis had medium ammo point at the right side which was not contested for at least 20 minutes and no OP on it (that would have covered the whole Maultier upkeep). They had low ammo point which was not contested almost the entire time I watched and no OP on it (would have at least partially compensate for the upkeep of Maultier). Later they brought in StuPa. Why did the player choose StuPa in reward menu when he knew the map had limited ammo income? Why did the player build StuPa at all? It is no longer the "kill everything" unit as it used to be, now it is emplacement/defense killer and the US players only had base defense emplacements which could be dealt with by the PIII N or Panther HE shots.

There were units with ammo upkeep in the field (LeiG18, Calli Jeep, later Maultier and 105 Sherman, later StuPa and 105 static howitzer on both sides) and yet there were offmap 105 barrages used, For the Fatherland ability used. Grenades used, HMG teams and MG nests built (require ammo to be built), I saw many Riflemen squads with Riflenade upgrades, some with BARs, Volks with MP40 and LMG upgrades, also at least one Volks squad with Faust upgrade. Repeated Engineers/Pios with Minesweepers. AP/HE upgrades purchased and used for tanks, even skirts used on Panthers and JPIV L70.

It did not seem that the situation with lack of ammo because of upkeeps was as desperate as it was described in some posts. Sure, this was just one replay which is definately not an abojective representation of what most often happens, but it was one that was linked to support a post. Feel free to post more where the problem is more obvious.

Anyway, kwok said he would watch it too, so maybe he'll see there something I missed and will confirm what you guys say.

One more thing I noticed in the game: Redgaarden (Def doc) sent his Officer several times into enemy territory with soldiers to fight - his defensive bonuses ONLY work in sectors that your team OWNS (on minimap blue). You can see on minimap and tactical map in which sector the bonuses apply because the sector will change color to green. When the Def doc Officer is in neutral (grey) sector or enemy (red) sector, he provides absolutely no bonuses to your soldiers in that sector.
It was probably not stated clear enough in the changelog, so the log will be tweaked to make it clear.
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Re: 5.1.8. beta (Doctrine rework, update 2)

Postby Viper » 16 Jun 2019, 07:00

105 howitzers are so op. please give them high upkeep.

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Re: 5.1.8. beta (Doctrine rework, update 2)

Postby MarKr » 16 Jun 2019, 08:07

@Viper: Could you post a replay from current beta which shows the problem?
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Re: 5.1.8. beta (Doctrine rework, update 2)

Postby Viper » 16 Jun 2019, 08:33

105 howitzers have no problem now in beta. i meant they should just always cost high upkeep (10 or higher) and never get lower. because this idea about ammo upkeep mainly came to reduce opness of 105 howitzers.


and i have question.....range of stupa anti fortification long shot is 80 and stuh has 85 range, right?
but what is the ability range for scott and 105 sherman? can they outrange 88 flak? only want to know for information.

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Re: 5.1.8. beta (Doctrine rework, update 2)

Postby Warhawks97 » 16 Jun 2019, 11:36

Viper wrote:105 howitzers have no problem now in beta. i meant they should just always cost high upkeep (10 or higher) and never get lower. because this idea about ammo upkeep mainly came to reduce opness of 105 howitzers.


10 should be the absolut maximum, i prefer less (5-8).
If you get higher than 10 it would kill like almost half the income on many 2 vs 2 maps.
Also keep in mind that this way you only allow the already dominant side to use lot of arty (although its the side that would need less) while the other side is pretty much doomed when having only a handfull small points left and its only way to get back would be smoke spam with mortar and mass inf deployment.
And the thing i dont get is that this whole upkeep idea is there to prevent a spam of such units. Thats the entire idea behind upkeeps in games. But now its extremely difficult to use just one of it, esspecially when you are in the team that has to get out of a siege. If the upkeep would be dropped you could raise build cost. The higher build cost and the remaining upkeep would prevent a spam (like two of them in a 2 vs 2 game) without denying the use of a single one.

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Re: 5.1.8. beta (Doctrine rework, update 2)

Postby kwok » 16 Jun 2019, 18:45

Okay I also tried watching the replays, for some reason only one of them worked. The one with figree/not vs regarden/tiger on bizory.

I found it a very..... strange game...
Firstly, I think Markr's analysis is absolutely accurate to the game itself. And actually, there was a LOT of munition used and traded around the whole game. The expectation shouldn't be that every units can be fully equipped and every unit can be used. Strategic allocation of munitions should be as thoughtful as manpower or fuel. Having another dimension where munition upkeep is introduced for the first time JUST AS every other resource would of course take time for people to adjust to, but that's what's going to be what makes us decide whether we take the recommendations from you all or not: have you tried adjusting?
That being said: I was really impressed how figree/not managed their munitions DESPITE not having the points for a good amount of time. I saw not sacrifice his rocket jeep because it was later he realized that he really doesn't need 2. This shows that some of our intents in putting in this change is effective. We were asked many many times to "fix the arty problem, there's too much". Here we have a case example of a player overusing arty on a SMALL map (get ready i'm going to go full rant soon about this) and realizing strategically he didn't need the second rocket jeep and that it was taxing him more than he needed.

Second.... get ready for it.... you played on a TINY map. I play bizory 1v1 only. Did you know that the base defenses on the topside players can reach the buildings in the middle? Which means bottom side players can't post up into the houses without taking in free shots from the base. This is a CLASSIC small map designed 2v2 for vcoh where ranges were no larger than the zoomed in screen and bk players playing on it with extended ranges. So it should absolutely not be the case that you should get more than 1 major artillery units an 1 minor artillery unit. Each player getting 1 arty unit is enough to blanket the entire map, why would you want/need more? If you want more, go put OPs as markr said. How many times does it need to be said that small maps are NOT how the game is intended to be played. Sure, it was a "new idea" that I've been going around saying a couple years ago, but since then (BEFORE i started helping out the devs) the devs has explicitly said that SMALL MAPS are NOT how BK is going to be balanced. You know I've asked BK if we can just get rid of 1v1 maps in BK because they are going to naturally be too small and players will continue playing on small maps and they'll never get the balance right? So far, as you can tell, that hasn't gotten anywhere. But if you seriously keep playing on small maps and insisting the problem is in the game, then honestly the next response is "we should just reduce the range of everything so that it scales to the maps people want to play on".

Third, Tiger has been mentioning the game has gotten more campy, but I think the reality here is that Tiger has gotten more campy. I have never seen blitz doc used so defensively and if it wasn't for the fact that not left the game, i think axis would've been overcome quite easily. Now I think I see why Tiger thinks it has become a much more campy game, it is because we took away a lot of camping capability for blitz doc so it is harder to camp, slowing the game down even more if you tried. The design for the new blitz doc is to be aggressive, that's how I've had other players testing it use it to great success. Let me see if I can pull any playable versions of replays (hard to do because we went through so many versions in testing) where blitz doc was used differently. The irony I found was that redgaarden playing def doc was more aggressive. It's especially frustrating to see that the game was called "campy" when the allied side made SO many attacks, the axis response was to sit and wait for every attack and then only make counter attack. Menawhile, there were many times when over 1000mp, 200mu, and 100fu was in storage. I find this claim "more campy" to be more player specific than a general problem.

Anyways, we've looked at the one replay we could watch and will look into adjustments. But, don't hold your breath for massive changes because so far at least Markr and I agree that this is more of players not adapting versus there actually being a problem. I mean Tiger, you had a maultiers and 200mu banked with a solid 20mu income coming in, prbably more if you had OP'd. Meanwhile, Allies had a 11mu income and still found ways to arty when needed.

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Re: 5.1.8. beta (Doctrine rework, update 2)

Postby Tiger1996 » 16 Jun 2019, 20:05

Viper wrote:and i have question.....range of stupa anti fortification long shot is 80 and stuh has 85 range, right?
but what is the ability range for scott and 105 sherman? can they outrange 88 flak? only want to know for information.

I think both have 80 range, keeping in mind Flak88s have 85 range.

kwok wrote:Okay I also tried watching the replays, for some reason only one of them worked. The one with figree/not vs regarden/tiger on bizory.

Hmm, so the first replay on Rosmalen doesn't show up? Well, as I expected; saving replays on workshop maps, apparently isn't possible.
But let me tell you briefly what the game was about... I was infantry doctrine, Red was Armor, Figree was Def doc, and Not was Blitz doc.
The game was so boring at the start with only little engagements for some reason.. despite it was high res, but me & RED later managed to dominate the battlefield thanks to Greyhound and Combat Engineers combined with 76 Shermans, Jackson B1 and CQB units...
Game lasted about 25 minutes until we managed to win.. it was a much shorter game.

kwok wrote:Now I think I see why Tiger thinks it has become a much more campy game, it is because we took away a lot of camping capability for blitz doc so it is harder to camp, slowing the game down even more if you tried. The design for the new blitz doc is to be aggressive

The new Blitz doc was designed to be agressive?? I highly doubt... Comparing the old Blitz doc with the new Blitz doc; I would say the old one was by far more aggressive, let alone the off-map battle-group support providing Pz4 and Stugs, but also the fact that you had Pz4 unlocked earlier.

Now, it's the contrary... The "new" Blitz doc is more about instant Stug4 TD camping, with Pz3.N to protect them.. and eventually Panther.D spam.
Actually, there is no place anymore for Pz4 at all.. and as u might have already noticed, I didn't even bring a single one of them for 1 hr & 30 mins.

Aside from that, none of the 2 games were highlighting the ammo upkeep issue.. but that doesn't mean the current ammo upkeep values are fine, because as I already mentioned, most of them are exaggerated... Also, I don't think Bizory is THAT small, surely not as big as Rosmalen, but.. still.

Regarding the Blitz doc however, I still see no reason how Stug4 should be default tank, meanwhile Pz4 costing 4 CPs!
That's just wrong... Stug4 should require unlock, and preferably not on the same tech line as Pz4, that's why I suggested Stug4 would be unlocked with Stuh/Stupa away from Pz4 tech tree, which means that Stug4 would require 4 CPs instead of currently ZERO points. And in order to compensate that, Pz4 would have to require not more than 3 CPs or just 2 CPs once again.. because that's supposed to be the core unit of Blitz doc, not Stug4. Needless to say, it's obviously harder to face Stug4 spam for 0 CPs than facing Pz4 spam for 2 or 3 CPs. Stug3 could be a default unit however...

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Re: 5.1.8. beta (Doctrine rework, update 2)

Postby MarKr » 16 Jun 2019, 20:33

Tiger1996 wrote:but that doesn't mean the current ammo upkeep values are fine, because as I already mentioned, most of them are exaggerated...
Can you post a replay which illustrates the crippling effect of the current ammo upkeeps on gameplay?

Viper wrote:and i have question.....range of stupa anti fortification long shot is 80 and stuh has 85 range, right?
but what is the ability range for scott and 105 sherman? can they outrange 88 flak? only want to know for information.
The range is 80 for StuPa and 85 for all the other howitzer tanks with this ability.
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Re: 5.1.8. beta (Doctrine rework, update 2)

Postby Warhawks97 » 17 Jun 2019, 08:07

MarKr wrote:
The range is 80 for StuPa and 85 for all the other howitzer tanks with this ability.


17 pdr emplacment and pak 40 emplacment have 80 range. Pak 43 and 88 flak 36 have even 85 range. Assault howitzers are quite usless here unless you find cover.


On Top of that, pak 43 and flak 36 have afterall broken damage stats.
Pak 43 and 17 pdr have also broken range brackets and the flak 36 has the most broken range brackets. Can we expect any fix here?

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Re: 5.1.8. beta (Doctrine rework, update 2)

Postby Warhawks97 » 19 Jun 2019, 23:48

More Testing done with def doc and i found several bugs:


1. 105 mm Howitzers normal barrage has more range than the long range ability.
2. The 150 mm Strike has wrong description (Combat Engineer Training).
3. The Grille seems to get longer cooldown with vet? It was like i started with 0 cooldown, then 11 sec and finally 25 sec on max vet with commander. I might test again but that was weird.
4. When i upgraded one bunker into a medic bunker, it was given to my bot teammate. PE suddenly had the medic bunker but sadly i couldnt see if they would get a squad out of it. I also couldnt upgrade any further bunker after turning one into observation and one into medic bunker.
5. I couldnt repair unmanned bunkers.
6. Corsix tells me that pak 43 does not suffer any accuracy penatly down range and also non vs stuart. However one pak 43 kept missing a single stuart for like a minute or more. At least 6 fail shots in a row. Take a look at pak 43 stats. That weapon seems to have its issues and weird stats.



Things that i consider as problematic:



Grille:

It has the range of a Hummel, fires 4 rounds quite quickly and thats for just 60 ammo a barrge with no real cooldown.
Its just dump.
It feels like both share the same role now which is just stupid.
The Grille had a so called "Schweres infanterie Geschütz (SiG)" which means heavy infantry gun. Its a field gun and not an howitzer. The difference is the size and weight and gun range. One is meant to stay close up front with infantry, the howitzer shooting over longer ranges and being less mobile (requires set up time etc).

The barrel of the Hummel is more than twice as long as that of the Grille.

What does it mean? I would make the SiG what it was designed for, an infantry assault gun. The Grille would fire directly at targets just like 105 sherman, stuh and stupa and no longer having "direct fire" as ability (which is quite OP i would say). But unlike stupa/stuh/105 sherman the Grille would be able to fire a 3 shot barrge at any point it wants over a range of 120 (due to better elevation).
The cost would be dropped to 360 MP and 50 fuel (remove ammo cost). It would be like a marder just with an 150 mm infantry gun that supports infantry attacks during the late game so that the doc gets some small offensive capabilties.

Thus the Grille would no longer be a "Hummel 2.0" just better (cheap shooting, direct fir ability) and instead become a real SiG.




150 mm Strike and registered artilley:

I dont really get why we still have that sort of Orbital bombardment (registered) in game. I am not even sure if this is intentional. Its an arty branch which is the offensive support branch of this doctrine for teammates. I dont really get why that kind of heavy defensive strike is unlocked along that.

The 150 mm strike is brutally effective. Much better than inf docs off map long tom strike. It strikes in a quicker sequence and more dense as it seems. Would be nice if we get some sort of comparission (if someone would want to make a test video). It would be super nice of the long tom would just as cool as this strike here.

Potentially, this strike could even be converted into a massive 170 mm or even 210 mm artillery strike. The germans used such kind of artillery. Like 17 cm Kanone 18 in the field artillery. They had even heavier stuff but extremely rare in the fields (only for siege mostly) and usually for stationary coastal defense.

But having a 170 mm artillery strike in the game would be very cool. And Perhaps bring long tom to the same peformance as this one or find a middle ground.

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Re: 5.1.8. beta (Doctrine rework, update 2)

Postby CGarr » 20 Jun 2019, 10:13

As someone who pretty much never uses the long tom in favor of normal arty due to its lower cost for about the same effect, I'd have to agree with hawks on the long toms needing to be more dense or faster. The barrage is so slow that once the first shell drops the enemy player can usually just move, meaning it does about the same damage as the normal one. I dont mind the long delay before the barrage to keep it from being a 1 click delete button, but once the first shell drops the others should drop in either very rapid succession or slightly faster but with a larger number of total shots per barrage. Along side this, heavier (maybe railway) arillery would be interesting to see with def doc, as the registered artillery seems kind of lackluster.

I also think in def doc pios should have a g43 upgrade available and be made slightly more expensive after their unlocking their CP combat upgrade. It would make sense to give them an improved long range option for better defensive play and on top of the def doc bonuses they would essentially become volks with less access to combat upgrades in exchange for the ability to build. As such the slight price increase would reflect their becoming a frontline unit similar to volks. They still wouldn't have AT or access to LMG's so i doubt it'd be overpowered but the def doc player would be able to hold more of the frontline sooner due to their builders naturally becoming combat troops via CP upgrade and new weapons (g43) and building would be less of a hassle due to the pios being able to quickly get to cover and fight off normal attacks should someone interrupt directly with their own inf.

Additionally, a pit for the 75mm leigs similar to the AT gun pits (maybe smaller) would nice. Light emplacements of these types in general (AT, leig, MG) should be made garrisonable by inf for all factions that have them. They would be better defended from approaching troops but garrisoned AT guns would become arty magnets due to the increased cost effectiveness of potentially killing both the emplacement and the unit inside.

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Redgaarden
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Re: 5.1.8. beta (Doctrine rework, update 2)

Postby Redgaarden » 21 Jun 2019, 14:53

One more thing I noticed in the game: Redgaarden (Def doc) sent his Officer several times into enemy territory with soldiers to fight - his defensive bonuses ONLY work in sectors that your team OWNS (on minimap blue). You can see on minimap and tactical map in which sector the bonuses apply because the sector will change color to green. When the Def doc Officer is in neutral (grey) sector or enemy (red) sector, he provides absolutely no bonuses to your soldiers in that sector.
It was probably not stated clear enough in the changelog, so the log will be tweaked to make it clear.


I still get veterancy for kills nearby the officer right? But it's true I forgot about the change.
Rifles are not for fighting. They are for building!

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MarKr
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Re: 5.1.8. beta (Doctrine rework, update 2)

Postby MarKr » 21 Jun 2019, 22:10

@Red:Yes, commanders get XP in any sector.

@CGarr: the thing is that there isn't any room left in UI for LeiG emplacement. I was thinking about an option where Pios would build "empty" emplacements and then you could place into it different types of AT guns from the 28mm HT (possibly even LeiG) but then I thought it would be too micro heavy and dropped the idea.
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Walderschmidt
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Re: 5.1.8. beta (Doctrine rework, update 2)

Postby Walderschmidt » 23 Jun 2019, 02:35

MarKr wrote:@Red:Yes, commanders get XP in any sector.

@CGarr: the thing is that there isn't any room left in UI for LeiG emplacement. I was thinking about an option where Pios would build "empty" emplacements and then you could place into it different types of AT guns from the 28mm HT (possibly even LeiG) but then I thought it would be too micro heavy and dropped the idea.


Um, that would be amazing.

Wald

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Black Panther
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Re: 5.1.8. beta (Doctrine rework, update 2)

Postby Black Panther » 25 Jun 2019, 07:58

Hi, can't wait for a new fixes, any time table for update?

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MarKr
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Re: 5.1.8. beta (Doctrine rework, update 2)

Postby MarKr » 25 Jun 2019, 08:23

We have an update which is currently on closed alpha. It has some bug fixes but also balance changes in stats for JP IVs and early game infantry which we want to test first to see the impact rather than releasing it asap and then adjusting it with patches every two days. We don't have any exact ETA at the moment but hopefully just few more days.
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Tiger1996
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Re: 5.1.8. beta (Doctrine rework, update 2)

Postby Tiger1996 » 25 Jun 2019, 10:00

By the way, it's fine how Axis TDs are now revealed after 1 camo shot, but i think the time it takes to become hidden once again.. is very long. Not sure, but i think Allied TDs take 4 to 3 seconds to re-hide.. but Axis TDs currently require around 15 seconds or so... Which is basically the full time required to camo on the first time.

Can't wait to see changes of Terror doc though.. and i'm still curious about the position of Stug4 in Blitz doc in relation to Pz4 tanks.

Gurkenkilla
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Re: 5.1.8. beta (Doctrine rework, update 2)

Postby Gurkenkilla » 04 Jul 2019, 09:48

Hi, any eta on new update? :)

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MarKr
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Re: 5.1.8. beta (Doctrine rework, update 2)

Postby MarKr » 08 Jul 2019, 20:04

@Guerkilla: Yes, update should come later today ;)
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