US Healing cost

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Warhawks97
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US Healing cost

Postby Warhawks97 » 12 Apr 2019, 11:07

I was thinking about US healing capabilties recently. To put it simple: I think they are too expensive. 300 MP for a triage center is a huge ammount, esspecially early game. And since triage centers now require 18 men to be collected before spawning a new squad, this can no longer be considered as a huge advantage. Even with nearby inf combat going on you wont get more than a squad out of it. But thats what i think is ok.

What really bugs me is that if i want a point where i can heal and reinforce, i do have to pay over 500 MP (ok, i can build medics and an Halftrack but that also requires 300 MP for triage center first). PE is currently the best. You either get that cheap Healing HT which is a mobile healing and reinforce station and can thus avoid getting into trouble and can move out of arty zones. And their entire HQ area heals for just 150 MP spending as well as their forward HQ´s once this upgrade has been purchased. So no matter where, you get healing and reinforcing quite cheap.

CW is similiar as PE with its vehicle.


I had a few thoughts arround how to solve it.


1. Medics can be build in barracks (also for WH). So i can get them cheap along with an Halftrack.
2. The triage centers are no longer healing and collecting stations in one and would get seperated like in vcoh (i liked the vcoh style to be honest). That way a triage center or healing station or medic station whatever its going t be called then, would cost just 150-200 MP and you can build medics there. The building that only collects wounded soldiers would then be the same building as in vcoh.
3. All factions get healing HT. The US have build 43.000 M3 Halfracks and 13.500 M2. So some of them were used as medical halftracks.



But as of now, paying 300 MP just for a fragile healing post is sometimes insane, esspecially during early game in a 2 vs 2. You have no real idea where to place it bc you dont know where the frontline will go along later. I often had like 3 full rifle squads but all down to 60% health in total. But my spendings had to go into tec to keep up or i simply didnt know where to place it bc frontline was moving very fast in the early stage.

Mr. FeministDonut
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Re: US Healing cost

Postby Mr. FeministDonut » 12 Apr 2019, 14:47

Agreed, this is a fast-phased game, where inf casulties goes too fast, as the pressure on MP resource, so it's not good to keep it up with vanilla standart, just as I said it before, Markkr!
Not even talking about high mp upkeep units, that should come with supply yard.

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MarKr
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Re: US Healing cost

Postby MarKr » 12 Apr 2019, 14:56

I think PE was given these easier ways to heal their soldiers because they don't have the "wounded collecting" feature so to compensate for no "free" squads, they got more ways to heal the living dudes. This was still not too good compensation back in time when 6 collected soldier gave you free squad but since the required collected number was increased, the easier access to healing became more noticeable advantage.

I wouldn't be against making Medics also buildable in Barracks but I don't think making "healing center" and "wounded collector" as a separate building is a good idea. Since it takes 18 soldiers to get a new squad, nobody would want to spend MP on it just to get maybe one squad free squad in the game.

So I would keep the building as it is, possibly make the static stations heal faster than the medic teams so that there is still some reason to build them at least somewhere.
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Re: US Healing cost

Postby Mr. FeministDonut » 12 Apr 2019, 15:09

MarKr wrote:I think PE was given these easier ways to heal their soldiers because they don't have the "wounded collecting" feature so to compensate for no "free" squads, they got more ways to heal the living dudes. This was still not too good compensation back in time when 6 collected soldier gave you free squad but since the required collected number was increased, the easier access to healing became more noticeable advantage.

I wouldn't be against making Medics also buildable in Barracks but I don't think making "healing center" and "wounded collector" as a separate building is a good idea. Since it takes 18 soldiers to get a new squad, nobody would want to spend MP on it just to get maybe one squad free squad in the game.

So I would keep the building as it is, possibly make the static stations heal faster than the medic teams so that there is still some reason to build them at least somewhere.

Please Markkr, tell me, why US paying so much price in MP?

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Warhawks97
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Re: US Healing cost

Postby Warhawks97 » 12 Apr 2019, 17:08

MarKr wrote:I think PE was given these easier ways to heal their soldiers because they don't have the "wounded collecting" feature so to compensate for no "free" squads, they got more ways to heal the living dudes. This was still not too good compensation back in time when 6 collected soldier gave you free squad but since the required collected number was increased, the easier access to healing became more noticeable advantage.


I played a game at road to cherbourgh. I was WH and held the right side.. that area with that ammo point and huge building. There was an intense fight of infantry, right next to my triage center which kept collecting soldiers. But i only managed to get 16 wounded men before an arty trike knocked out the building.

So that capability is, in the long run, not really an advantage. You may get one free squad later in a game, but up that time, but in return you spend 500 MP for a healing post and an HQ or HT for reinforcing. My enemie dont get a free squad later, but he saved hundreds of MP bc he just had to spend 220 MP for a reinforce/healing post that can also move.
So there is no advantage whatsover. If i get a free squad later but pay 500 MP or i spare these 300 MP and simply build one more squad.
As PE i started to build a HT right away or that healing HT. And with that i need two squads, perhaps an AT gun and i am as strong as having like 3-4 squads simply bc my path to the next reinforcing area is much shorter. Effectively i need more inf units in early game as US in order to have fight the same ammount of skirmish fights.

I wouldn't be against making Medics also buildable in Barracks but I don't think making "healing center" and "wounded collector" as a separate building is a good idea. Since it takes 18 soldiers to get a new squad, nobody would want to spend MP on it just to get maybe one squad free squad in the game.


I would, bc healing is just too expensive in comparision to all other factions.
seperate it, simple as that. The collecting station would, like in vcoh, cost 150 MP. Whenever you expect long fights and stalemate situations with tons of inf involved or already expecting to repeatedly attack a position at one area, you spend 150 MP right at that point and collect wounded soliders. If you lose, well, its just 150 MP, and not 300 then.

You can also get two collecting stations for the same price you pay now, which means faster collecting guys and perhaps even at different locations of the map. And if one gets lost, another is still active.

But healing needs to be made different bc you pay currently tons more for heal/reinforce post at the front than any other faction. That hurts esspecially during early stage where you can either tec or heal, either way is bad in some ways.

Having a specialized Healing/reinforce capability pays out better currently (PE/CW is the best example) rather than combined heal/wounded collection capabilties.


So I would keep the building as it is, possibly make the static stations heal faster than the medic teams so that there is still some reason to build them at least somewhere.



:shock: :roll: (we are lacking a real "what?" Meme... sometimes i just have to grab my head in order not to smash it on the table)
I mean... what?

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MarKr
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Re: US Healing cost

Postby MarKr » 12 Apr 2019, 17:55

Warhawks97 wrote:(we are lacking a real "what?" Meme... sometimes i just have to grab my head in order not to smash it on the table)
I mean... what?
I used to have these exactmoments very often back in times when some people posted a lot more than they do now. However, I'm not naming anyone on the other hand anyway.
I should have structured my post better, I can see how it can lead to possible confusion in some parts (though it still seems like you didn't read some parts well enough).

What I meant:
Medics available in barracks + Triage center can still heal and collect wounded

So by "keep it as it is" I meant "keep both healing and collecting functions".
It is because a building which can only collect wounded and has no other function is not very likely to be used even if it costs as little as 150MP exactly for the reasons you wrote - it takes forever to collect 18 soldiers and sometimes you won't get any free squad before the station gets destroyed. If a building collects wounded AND also heals soldiers around, it means that you are more likely to squeeze some benefit from it before it gets destroyed. However, if the station is such an easy target and the chance to get a free squad is more of a "lucky feat" rather than something you can count on, why would you even bother building it when you can build cheaper medic squads which are mobile and can heal just as fast as the building? That's why I said that the building could have stronger healing than the medics - to keep there some reason to use the building over the medic squad.
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Warhawks97
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Re: US Healing cost

Postby Warhawks97 » 12 Apr 2019, 18:13

MarKr wrote:Medics available in barracks + Triage center can still heal and collect wounded


I dont get it. Its always preferable to have mobile heal+reinforce (medic+HT) over fixed expensive squishy buldings that only heal (and collect wounded is more or less usless now or not an argument as the building gets destroyed before)


So by "keep it as it is" I meant "keep both healing and collecting functions".
It is because a building which can only collect wounded and has no other function is not very likely to be used even if it costs as little as 150MP exactly for the reasons you wrote - it takes forever to collect 18 soldiers and sometimes you won't get any free squad before the station gets destroyed. If a building collects wounded AND also heals soldiers around, it means that you are more likely to squeeze some benefit from it before it gets destroyed. However, if the station is such an easy target and the chance to get a free squad is more of a "lucky feat" rather than something you can count on, why would you even bother building it when you can build cheaper medic squads which are mobile and can heal just as fast as the building? That's why I said that the building could have stronger healing than the medics - to keep there some reason to use the building over the medic squad.



It takes forever with 2 guys far back (bc you cant place 300 MP building up front) which occassionally collect a dude that dies in the area.
But two cheap buildings with 4 medics collecting guys and much closer up front (bc 150 MP is far less hurtfull to lose) can do the job, esspecially in a stalemate area where you go for repeated attacks. Thats what i btw due as inf doc. There two medic trucks can do some good work, esspecially as all can reinforce and heal nearby as well.


And you never "squezze" anything out of a 300 MP triage center that is far back at base. Most people build one at base or nearby or near a truck and use medic+HT for healing. I doubt that collecting wounded capabilties for a building that is put in your HQ area will squezze anything out of its capabilties to collect wounded.


thus, simple rule: Heal+Reinforce>Heal+collecting wounded.


Why are you trying to keep or to make things more complicate than they have to?

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MarKr
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Re: US Healing cost

Postby MarKr » 12 Apr 2019, 18:22

Oh, I see I got your first point wrong. It seemed like you wanted to implement all 3 points at once. All right, never mind.
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idliketoplaybetter
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Re: US Healing cost

Postby idliketoplaybetter » 12 Apr 2019, 21:33

Tigahfluenza is spreading incredibly fast

Never had much issues with triage center being VERY expensive or so on, but what i can add to this, is that, sometimes (mostly) when ur playing without picking doc right on from the first minutes of the match, u end hesitating for going INF doc and getting cheap truck with all its benefits, though in most cases, u need Healing faster than Motorpool/doc pick can allow you to. So you might be forced into building Triage anyway..

Aaand in that case, giving up 300mp early on can be crucial.

Maybe a short Price drop from 300 to, i dunno, 200/250 would really make it up? Faster healing could be an upgradable thing in exchange?

Also, in case if Medics will become buildable unit from the start and u could combine its functions with M3 truck, and if i understand it correctly, it will provide healing aura without too much micro, that could work all the things out.
So in a combo use, it will probably still be more expensive than a single Inf doc heal truck, but more flexible for other docs..AND optional faster healing triage, for those that dont want/need mobility in their games that much.

(Other side of this, its that it will make US gameplay in this sense be more like CW game, aaand that i wouldnt like to happen)
"You can argue only with like-minded people"

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Re: US Healing cost

Postby Tiger1996 » 12 Apr 2019, 22:40

idliketoplaybetter wrote:Tigahfluenza is spreading incredibly fast

i'm giving it a pass.. although it can be funnier.

==============================

Oh, and the reason I don't visit this place as much as I used to do in the past.. is because it's just too rotten, almost a dishonor to stay.
Though; I still have my glasses.. just to keep an eye on, while it becomes even more rotten each time.

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Re: US Healing cost

Postby Walderschmidt » 28 Apr 2019, 17:15

Why not drop the price by 50 mp and make healing slighly faster?

Then have medics buildable in barracks/HQs for all factions? Then it's a trade off, mobile free, vulnerable healing?

Make buildings have to get 12 soldiers for free squad?

^put those in beta patch to test them maybe?
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Extra:

If your troops come across an unescorted medic squad they capture them? (basically you get a free medic).

Wald

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Warhawks97
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Re: US Healing cost

Postby Warhawks97 » 28 Apr 2019, 21:47

Walderschmidt wrote:Why not drop the price by 50 mp and make healing slighly faster?


that changes what? The point is: Heal+reinforce capabilties (also cheap, mobile and early) is (esspecially during early stages) much more effective and usefull than heal+perhaps one free squad once in a long game (also super expensive and not mobile). So the overall issue is not solved at all.

Then have medics buildable in barracks/HQs for all factions? Then it's a trade off, mobile free, vulnerable healing?

Medics in barracks would be one good thing at least.

Make buildings have to get 12 soldiers for free squad?


If i could choose between a cheap acting as a mobile forward heal and reinforcment center and thats for less than 250 MP, or between a 300 or 250 MP triage center which cant move and which cant reinforce my units, i would choose the HT any time, even if the triage center requires onl 12 men.

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Re: US Healing cost

Postby Mr. FeministDonut » 29 Apr 2019, 05:31

Stationary med stations was useful in Vanilla for producing vetted grenadiers and pumping out rifleman with bars and all upgrades.
What do we have here? 300mp for a medstation + 150mp for a medic squad, that should be camping the base, while triage is somewhere near the battlefield, not counting how many soldiers are needed. Economical it's just useless and too much cost for that. Only useful it will be for pumping out the most expensive squad in the game (british inf).


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