HotchKiss +100 kills

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Tiger1996
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HotchKiss +100 kills

Postby Tiger1996 » 10 Sep 2018, 15:05

- Me & TAVARES & Crimax

VS

- Wurf & Volks & BadRain

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bWyib-dqBo
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@Warhawks97
Scotts did very good btw, all of them were vet.3 and in fact they were very annoying.

@MarKr
HotchKiss is currently OP now, but plz don't increase the barrage price, nor the scatter.. just lower the speed and later available rocket upgrade.
You could also lower the rate of fire, but this is generally an issue with all arty units in the game actually, for example; I would say that Priest with 105mm gun reloading only in 6 seconds (basic reload) or Hummel with 150mm gun reloading only in 3 seconds with static mode, is just too unreal...

Also, you did increase the reload time for all tanks with big guns in the game.. so ya, what about self-propelled arty pieces?
They also have big guns!

Anyways, enjoy! ;)

The New BK Champion
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Re: HotchKiss +100 kills

Postby The New BK Champion » 10 Sep 2018, 16:03

Scoring half of player's kills in a game with a pre-war poorly designed and obsolete tank crudely adapted to fit 4 inaccurate rockets is a fucking joke.

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Warhawks97
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Re: HotchKiss +100 kills

Postby Warhawks97 » 10 Sep 2018, 17:37

Tiger1996 wrote:


@Warhawks97
Scotts did very good btw, all of them were vet.3 and in fact they were very annoying.


My scott was max vet as well but it took very long just as these did. Anyway. I gonna try to use them more often and see what happens.

HotchKiss is currently OP now, but plz don't increase the barrage price, nor the scatter.. just lower the speed and later available rocket upgrade.
You could also lower the rate of fire



Actually i would say that scatter and damage is less the issue. Its actually less deadly vs tanks as it used to be. Also late game inf can apparently stand it. The main issue is simply that the rocket arty is so early available without any requirment and that the unit is so fast. That will be changed so it should help.


but this is generally an issue with all arty units in the game actually, for example; I would say that Priest with 105mm gun reloading only in 6 seconds (basic reload) or Hummel with 150mm gun reloading only in 3 seconds with static mode, is just too unreal... Also, you did increase the reload time for all tanks with big guns in the game.. so ya, what about self-propelled arty pieces?
They also have big guns!



The reload time of 105 arty is generally 7-8 sec except for priest which is 6 seconds (and less scatter). The 150 mm Hummel reloads in 10 sec. Thing is that static mode lowers it down to 5 seconds. Usually such static modes give 25% reduced reload time which would then be 7,5 sec. These 3 sec is with vet and vet commander and static mode. I asked Markr to make the stat mode reducing reload time by 25% and not 50%.




Anyways, enjoy! ;)


I did, but i got questions:

1. Why did you stop using inf. Hauptsturmführer and SS squad with lmgs only is the very best counter to enemie elite inf that trys to rush. PE inf in generally is quite usefull with all boosts and vet. Also a medic HT closer to the front to shorten the way back to frontline.
2. You didnt unlock AP rounds when you could after having JT unlocked. You should have unlocked AP and use it vs Pershing. The damage boost still exist so the JP could oneshot Pershings or increasing crit chances.

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Tiger1996
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Re: HotchKiss +100 kills

Postby Tiger1996 » 10 Sep 2018, 20:10

Warhawks97 wrote:The reload time of 105 arty is generally 7-8 sec except for priest which is 6 seconds (and less scatter). The 150 mm Hummel reloads in 10 sec. Thing is that static mode lowers it down to 5 seconds. Usually such static modes give 25% reduced reload time which would then be 7,5 sec. These 3 sec is with vet and vet commander and static mode. I asked Markr to make the stat mode reducing reload time by 25% and not 50%.

I believe Hummel should reload in 13-14 seconds, and 105mm arty (including the Priest) should reload in 9-10 seconds, MarKr just needs to nerf all arty in the game.. it's sick! He should look at the terrain to see how many craters were on the ground at the end, only cuz of arty.
Tanks were even unable to move really...

To the questions:
1) Deploying infantry at this point would be pointless.. arty was everywhere.
2) No need for AP unlock when u can just kill SP with Hotchkiss :P

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Warhawks97
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Re: HotchKiss +100 kills

Postby Warhawks97 » 10 Sep 2018, 21:03

Tiger1996 wrote:I believe Hummel should reload in 13-14 seconds, and 105mm arty (including the Priest) should reload in 9-10 seconds, MarKr just needs to nerf all arty in the game.. it's sick!


That would make them almost useless bc everyone has a lot of time to move.

I dont think that we must make a "general arty nerf". As i said i like it currently. I played armor doctrine and i feel much more comfortable now bc allied tanks take far less damage as before (exception SP and churchill ace which were the only allied tanks that had the axis damage reduction).

If Hummel would reload in 7,5 sec in stat mode (or 8, idk) and Priest in 7 seconds instead of 6, that would help already.


He should look at the terrain to see how many craters were on the ground at the end, only cuz of arty.
Tanks were even unable to move really...


Srsly?! Dude? That happens as long as i can remember playing BK. I had games at pretty much any map where at the end no house or tree was left and craters on every square meter of the map. To be honest, ive seen much bigger arty parties than the one you had on your recent games.
Someone uploaded even several screenshots to show the effect of arty and that was well before 5.xx version.



To the questions:
1) Deploying infantry at this point would be pointless.. arty was everywhere.
2) No need for AP unlock when u can just kill SP with Hotchkiss :P


You must be kidding now. What do you think made me stop playing BK several times over years. Yes: Arty. First arty could fire literally for free...35 ammo for a 105 barrage. Wolf changed it. What you think made me comming back or why i couldnt await this version: yes, the arty changes.


Then there was an issue with allied tanks. A direct 105 shell hit made them lose 502,5 HP, now that dropped to 452,5.
A close hit dealed 251,25 damage to a sherman, now that dropped to 188,44 damage.
What is true is that axis medium tanks used to take 376,875 damage per direct hit, now they take 452,5 just like allied tanks.
KT´s and JP and stuff used to take just 300 and 251 damage per direct hit, now they take the same 452,5 as axis and SP always took.

A stuka rocket once dealed 402,5 damage by a direct hit on a allied tank, now its 472,5 but the chance to hit directly has been halfed for two reasons. 1. the Direct hit range was lowered, 2. Rocket arty got reduced scatter from vet. So Hotchkiss and alike used to be much more anti tank snipeing with vet as they are now!
Close hits (not direct hits) however are dealing significantly less damage. The damage there dropped from 262,5 to 196,875.


The 210 nebler was once considered to be the best anti tank weapon. Once dealing 525 on direct hit, that dropped to 472,5 damage. A close hit (which was once used the AoE bracket 2-6 is reduced to 1-5) used to deal 262,5 damage, now its 196,875.

All that applies also to allied vehicles (axis vehicles always had that advantage of taking less damage from arty).



So Perhaps a small portion of units gained nothing or lost in arty resistance bc they were over resistant, nontheless, the majority of all tanks and vehicles in game are taking significantly less damage from arty in general now!

As regarding the SP: Its less likely now to die to arty bc the chance of direct hits has been drasitcally lowered by reducing the direct hit AoE and by removing scatter reduction by veterancy.


And in the past games i felt that changes. Allied lost significantly less tanks and vehicles to arty in past games, esspecially far less fell victim to 210 neblers and stuka type artillery.

Its true that inf suffers afterall, however, with more and more craters and veted elite inf the chances to lose entire squads dropped. You just gave up the infantry too early when they were on the egde of becoming essentially important with much higher chances to survive.

Esspecially luft and def doc benefits from "craters everywhere" most due to their defensive boost skill that is being activated once they enter cover (require vet 1 upgrade for reg5).

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Tiger1996
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Re: HotchKiss +100 kills

Postby Tiger1996 » 10 Sep 2018, 21:22

I can't see why should 105mm arty gun reload faster than an 88mm gun for a heavy tank... Tiger reloads in 8-9 seconds, KT reloads in 9-10 second.
Somehow 105mm arty reloads in 7-8 seconds.. and Priest only in 6 seconds, that's a joke!

if lowering the rate of fire to around 9-10 seconds for 105mm arty would make them useless, then they could have less cool-down or whatever.

And the current damage by the arty is still too high btw, given how all tanks are slower now.. specifically when passing over craters and hard terrain.

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Warhawks97
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Re: HotchKiss +100 kills

Postby Warhawks97 » 10 Sep 2018, 21:34

Tiger1996 wrote:I can't see why should 105mm arty gun reload faster than an 88mm gun for a heavy tank... Tiger reloads in 8-9 seconds, KT reloads in 9-10 second.
Somehow 105mm arty reloads in 7-8 seconds.. and Priest only in 6 seconds, that's a joke!

if lowering the rate of fire to around 9-10 seconds for 105mm arty would make them useless, then they could have less cool-down or whatever.

From a realistic point of view they would have to load the round and the charge. Sure that would take a while. But dont you think that making them loading like 15 seconds would be too much? Like everybody on the field says: "Time break, here comes the arty, lets meet here again and fight when its over". The arty shall drive off the enemie from a location and destroy weapon crews etc. Thing is it drives the enemie back but at the same time you prevent your own forces to advance unless you order your arty to ceasfire after 2-3 shots so that you can pass the area before the enemie can rebuild the defense behind the barrage zone. So it woud become a waste of ammo, hindering the own gameplay and so on. Keep in mind that these guys have plenty of space to load and its far less exhausting to work there than inside of a crampy tank that might also move. I dont see a real issue here.
Even though you see just one men loading, in reality a gun and 2-3 loaders. One puts a shell inside, the next one a charge and the next closes the breach, the fourth triggers the gun.


And the current damage by the arty is still too high btw, given how all tanks are slower now.. specifically when passing over craters and hard terrain.


With exception of early hotchkiss rocket abuse that comes simply too early, basically almost in the early game (where every loss has a massive impact on the game), the impact arty has in game is a lot more supportive rather than complete annihilator and thats what artillery did in ww2. You cripple your opponent but generally tank and vehicle losses to arty have drastically reduced. Thats my experience and yes, i am an excessive vehicle and medium tank user.

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Re: HotchKiss +100 kills

Postby mofetagalactica » 10 Sep 2018, 23:18

It should be still nerfed againts inf anyway, it was less powerfull againts infantry before just because the scatter was smaller so you could just don't bunch up your assaulting infantry like any good person with his sane mind would do, but now since the scatter is bigger and the AOE its big enought to destroy any squad even if the rocket fall like 10 km away from the squad it pretty much destroys any assault/cammoed ambush that you try to do, and since this unit exist for tank hunter doctrine only, then your tanks will perform like shit and will be heavily countered by the overbuffed armor and almost free op ap rounds from the enemy tanks.

So since noone seems to want to touch his damage and aoe well.... what about moving this unit to other doc and delaying it?
It has no use now againts tanks i feel that they're gonna be use againts infantry assaults and camoed at's mg's etc, just in case because its cheap to use.
So what is this doc weak to? Its strong againts inf and overly strong againts tanks lol

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Jalis
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Re: HotchKiss +100 kills

Postby Jalis » 11 Sep 2018, 01:09

Tiger1996 wrote:I can't see why should 105mm arty gun reload faster than an 88mm gun for a heavy tank... Tiger reloads in 8-9 seconds, KT reloads in 9-10 second.
Somehow 105mm arty reloads in 7-8 seconds.. and Priest only in 6 seconds, that's a joke!



From a historical point of view as well as for common sense it is not a joke. Records I have suggest M7 priest crews had 3 loaders (like the hummel)

3 Loaders on open space makes a severe difference with a single one closed in a cramped turret.

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Re: HotchKiss +100 kills

Postby Tiger1996 » 11 Sep 2018, 02:30

And from what I have Googled so far, the Priest fires about 3 or 4 rounds per minute.. meaning 20 seconds reload time, or 15 seconds at best!

Hummel fires about 2 or 3 rounds per minute.. meaning about 26 seconds reload time, or just 20 seconds at best!

3 loaders.. yes, but also a BIG shell to reload. So the 3 loaders don't allow it to reload faster, but in fact.. without 3 loaders you will not even reload.
I mean that 1 loader will not even work.. so, 3 loaders are NECESSARY for a 15 seconds reload, if you want to reload in 7 seconds.. u need 6 loaders.

Before the last patch, all heavy tanks used to fire quicker than arty units.. now, it's the opposite! Which is actually a problem.

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Re: HotchKiss +100 kills

Postby Jalis » 11 Sep 2018, 04:21

For what I knows real M7 priest RoF is around 8 rounds / minute, that is about half of the 105 mm gun equipped RoF, when it is use on its classical towed field howitzer carriage (max 10 to 15 per minutes). 3 to 4 rounds per minutes is more likely the sustained RoF for long arty preparation.

Hummel is an other matter and 2 to 3 rounds / minutes seems a credible value. Estimated weight of a complete 150 mm cartridge is over 50 kg (20 kg for a 105 mm). 150 mm / 6 inches was considered as the maximum caliber than can be reasonably loaded manually.

On my side I added a restriction to hummel ; I limited the salvo to 4 instead of 6 considering the very low ammo stock for the hummel (16 or 18 IIRC). It is the about the same ammo stock than the grille (also a 150 mm) which is allowed to a single shot salvo (At least last time I Checked it)

Anyway Arty is too often a nuisance and the easy way to solve all problems. It is not so glorious for the users and a bit frustrating for the victim.

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Warhawks97
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Re: HotchKiss +100 kills

Postby Warhawks97 » 11 Sep 2018, 12:22

Tiger1996 wrote:And from what I have Googled so far, the Priest fires about 3 or 4 rounds per minute.. meaning 20 seconds reload time, or 15 seconds at best! Hummel fires about 2 or 3 rounds per minute.. meaning about 26 seconds reload time, or just 20 seconds at best!


for sustained artillery shooting, not barrages. You had to fill your combat room after while just as kronoz said.


3 loaders.. yes, but also a BIG shell to reload. So the 3 loaders don't allow it to reload faster, but in fact.. without 3 loaders you will not even reload.
I mean that 1 loader will not even work.. so, 3 loaders are NECESSARY for a 15 seconds reload, if you want to reload in 7 seconds.. u need 6 loaders.


The Axis 105 shell HE weight 14,81 kg (i think it was also one round just as it was for US). However it might be that there were ammo that was a single round with projectile and charge and shells as well as seperated ammo where ammo and charge was seperated so that you could adjust the ammount of pouder required.

However the axis 105 HE shell as listed with 14,83 KG:
http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Waf ... bitzen.htm
The Panther 75 mm Standard shell with 14,3 KG and the HE with 11,2 KG.

Before the last patch, all heavy tanks used to fire quicker than arty units.. now, it's the opposite! Which is actually a problem.


Its not. Why should it? SPGS got a range reduction from 200 to 180. Each barrage costs something and many shots can fail and no more cooldown reduction with vet which means less frequent barrages.

Heavy tanks got range boost and dont pay per shot and fire sustained.
Only Hummel seems a bit off with static mode.



mofetagalactica wrote:It should be still nerfed againts inf anyway, it was less powerfull againts infantry before just because the scatter was smaller so you could just don't bunch up your assaulting infantry like any good person with his sane mind would do, but now since the scatter is bigger and the AOE its big enought to destroy any squad even if the rocket fall like 10 km away from the squad it pretty much destroys any assault/cammoed ambush that you try to do, and since this unit exist for tank hunter doctrine only, then your tanks will perform like shit and will be heavily countered by the overbuffed armor and almost free op ap rounds from the enemy tanks.

So since noone seems to want to touch his damage and aoe well.... what about moving this unit to other doc and delaying it?
It has no use now againts tanks i feel that they're gonna be use againts infantry assaults and camoed at's mg's etc, just in case because its cheap to use.
So what is this doc weak to? Its strong againts inf and overly strong againts tanks lol


The German rocket arty was there to blast infantry with shrappnels. The 150 mm had 2,4 kg HE load and much smaller blast radius and shrappnel effect. The 210 got 28,6 KG HE with a shrappnel blast reaching up to 100 meter. So technically they perform quite realistic and are more anti inf weapon than anti tank.


But i agree with the Problems. But things will be changed and we will see how it ends. It will become much harder to bring it up front and retreat as the speed with rockets drops from 4.5 (sherman e8 speed) to 2.8 (turtlee speed). The scatter may increases as well as the rockets get delayed as they will require the tank support command first. Thus a player would need all buildings to have anti inf arty and his big tanks.
Barrage cost might also go up. So lets see how that will work out.

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Re: HotchKiss +100 kills

Postby Jalis » 11 Sep 2018, 13:18

A little addition about reload time. For very heavy arty, shell weight is not the only problem, gun elevation become one too.
Roughly after one shot, you have to down the gun to horizontal to load it, then up it to desired elevation, fire ect …

to end Warhawks97 list 300 mm rocket got around 100 pound of explosive, almost the double of the 210.

For game purpose, my opinion is arty would be a necessary evil to prevent heavy camping, but not more (Even it was historically the main casualty factor). For that I agree with Tiger1996, there is limit to historical accuracy because the game purpose is to have fun (not to say abuse of arty is clearly a brainless tactic).

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Re: HotchKiss +100 kills

Postby Warhawks97 » 11 Sep 2018, 13:56

Jalis wrote:
For game purpose, my opinion is arty would be a necessary evil to prevent heavy camping, but not more (Even it was historically the main casualty factor). For that I agree with Tiger1996, there is limit to historical accuracy because the game purpose is to have fun (not to say abuse of arty is clearly a brainless tactic).


As for PvP i dont think arty is such brainless shit as it used to be. Exception here might be the Hotchkiss atm but thats not only related to its damage and AoE, but also cost, using risks and long term decisions. Going for howitzers usually delays everything else like inf boosts, Tank unlocks etc etc. So its not brainless. The walking stuka costs a lot CP to get which are often better used for Inf boosts or early Panther.

RA got its nerf with range reduction of spgs, no cooldown reduction from vet and other changes made in the past already. It simply would fail its role if arty would become a support tool only in the artillery doctrine.


Calli rockets are a bit broken atm with a huge chance of scoring a a so called direct and thus dealing 3 times the damage as intended in certain occassions.
The Hummel rof seems a bit broken perhaps and the 95 mm arty in certain circumstances. But generally things are improving.

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Tiger1996
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Re: HotchKiss +100 kills

Postby Tiger1996 » 11 Sep 2018, 16:51

Calli, 95mm arty, HotchKiss, Hummel.. and most of all, the Priest of course.

in my opinion the Priest is still the MOST ridiculous arty unit among them for its cost.
Early available, collection of super abilities, cheap, extremely high rate of fire, and also precise...

And arty in general is now a lot worse than ever before, I know you might come up with a lot of numbers proving otherwise.. but no, it's clearly obvious that arty in this version (5.1.5) is by far more devastating and broken than anytime in the past! No idea whatever shit MarKr has done exactly.. but something is definitely messed up, for real.

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Warhawks97
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Re: HotchKiss +100 kills

Postby Warhawks97 » 11 Sep 2018, 19:19

Tiger1996 wrote:Calli, 95mm arty, HotchKiss, Hummel.. and most of all, the Priest of course.

in my opinion the Priest is still the MOST ridiculous arty unit among them for its cost.
Early available, collection of super abilities, cheap, extremely high rate of fire, and also precise...

And arty in general is now a lot worse than ever before, I know you might come up with a lot of numbers proving otherwise.. but no, it's clearly obvious that arty in this version (5.1.5) is by far more devastating and broken than anytime in the past! No idea whatever shit MarKr has done exactly.. but something is definitely messed up, for real.



Its not. I Gurantee. I had games in the past with double hotchkiss that knocked out EVERY allied tank in a single barrage. Fired from approx the range they get fired now, it blasted any tank into pieces. On vet 3-4 a single hotchkiss fired so accurate that it scored more or less 2-3 direct hits.


And yes, a few axis tanks suffered as i said. A German tank IV used to take 376,875 damage per direct hit, now its 452,25. KT and stuff took even 300 or less damage per direct hit, now its also 452,25.
Allied tanks (exception SP and crocc which took also 376,875) took 502,5, now they take 452,25 per direct hit of a 105 mm.


So lets say it got fairer + direct hits in general do proper damage, hits close to the tank deal less damage in general. Of course Priest is kind of a winner bc it had less scatter and higher rof than comparable 105 arty. Still, cooldowns arent decreased by vet anymore. And these "OP abilties" you mentioned require sometimes even a CP unlock. Others unlock off map strikes, RA unlocks a certain abilities for Priest and the 25 pdr´s.


And i faced the priests already in the new version and it was far less intense arty spam that it used to be and generally less deadly.


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