2v2 on Discord

[Tiger1996]

Axis

Me (Terror) and David Stirling (Luft)

VS

Allies

Kwok (Air) and Flash (Armor)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=reeZXziX5as

Thumbnail

Both teams were voice chatting on Discord, enjoy!

[Warhawks97]

One thing i saw is that you spend 2 cp on storms and then 2 on tank IV.
When i play BK doc (or other docs= i wait as long as possible untill i get 4-5 cp unless there is a good situation in which a quick house deployment of storms or a quick tank IV J usage could end a game.
The reason is simple. When you think you will need inf you get all boosts right away I dont unlock anything too early untill the situation demands it. If you think you need tanks you can unlock tanks + boosts.
I wonder why players are often so eager to unlock stuff right when they can. Holding back CP´s is often smarter.

Like when you get the stug you could have got a tank IV J already.
Going vs americans while having fuel is usually automatically Tank IV/Puma/Stug and Bk doc. There is nothing they can do about it in this early stage except hiding behind a 57 mm and hoping for lots of luck.
The tank IV H/J is a real pain for US in this stage of the game.
VS CW its quite often a combo of stug and inf (grens storms) instead tank IV.
Two tank IV´s at the time you lost the stug (you could have had two tank IV´s if not even a thrid in production would have steamroled the entire side. I mean even for the loss of a tank IV and a second damaged, you would have taken the initiative as your inf engaged the AT vehicles shortly after. With your res income on your side you could have replaced the losses of the advance.

When you check your res pool at min 18. The US would have had nothing to deal with the ammount of tank IV spam. Sure, the losses by the plane were high but didnt happen if more tank IV´s would have cleared the fields.


Min 33:25: A strafe kills Tanks? or only tanks with open top?


Edit:
How quickly got the medium tank Phase skipped? After 23 mins the first two panthers were on the way. So a short battle with easy eights and stugs took place and hello heavy tanks. Soon followed by jackson and pershing as counter. The only mediums existing were just for anti inf combat. Isnt it some sort of proof why the changes in Beta version are necessary?

Edit II: 49:45: Satchel doesnt destroy an emplacment? I mean isnt satchels sole role to destroy emplacments?

[Tiger1996]

Min 33:25: A strafe kills Tanks? or only tanks with open top?

Light armored vehicles, open top tanks.. and Jumbo Shermans Not sure why Jumbos are in the list, but they are!

Edit II: 49:45: Satchel doesnt destroy an emplacment? I mean isnt satchels sole role to destroy emplacments?

Sometimes fails.. sometimes kills it instantly.
I think it's fine either ways though... After all, I think it would be a bit too much if the flak88 emplacement would always die with a single satchel.
Naked flak88s are fine to die with a single one.. but emplacements are supposed to hold longer, I think.

Edit:
How quickly got the medium tank Phase skipped? After 23 mins the first two panthers were on the way. So a short battle with easy eights and stugs took place and hello heavy tanks. Soon followed by jackson and pershing as counter. The only mediums existing were just for anti inf combat. Isnt it some sort of proof why the changes in Beta version are necessary?

Well, let's not forget.. this was a high resources game!
You see; it's all about this statement...

Heavies were most of the time nobrainers and people tried to get them as fast as possible. This was because these units were very good: medium tanks couldn't usually do jack against them and the only real counter to them were enemy heavies or late-game offmap abilities (arty/planes).

I wouldn't say that this statement is exactly false or true, as it's partly this and that.. at the same time.
However, I would rather throw the following question...
To what extent this statement is valid ??

it's not like new players for example would simply rush for heavy tanks and win games.. in fact, most new players "think" that it's possibly the correct way to play... Nonetheless, when they do that.. they just regret later, because most of the time they end up just losing their heavy tanks by 1 or 2 hits instantly to some TDs hiding somewhere! Airstrikes and Off-map arty aren't the only ways to deal with heavy tanks or super heavy tanks for sure.

So, I would question you back... Hawks.
How many times have you also seen SP, KT, Tigers and Pershings die instantly without scoring any kills?
I would say that heavy tanks in Bk Mod are pretty balanced.. and are only effective in the hands of good players.
Thus, any changes in this field.. must be taken with extreme care.

[Warhawks97]

Light armored vehicles, open top tanks.. and Jumbo Shermans Not sure why Jumbos are in the list, but they are!

Wasnt it supposed to be fixed

Well, let's not forget.. this was a high resources game!
You see; it's all about this statement...

Heavies were most of the time nobrainers and people tried to get them as fast as possible. This was because these units were very good: medium tanks couldn't usually do jack against them and the only real counter to them were enemy heavies or late-game offmap abilities (arty/planes).

Ok, with low res game the mediums will come later as well. So the short time of their existance is the same, just everything is delayed a bit.

So, I would question you back... Hawks.
How many times have you also seen SP, KT, Tigers and Pershings die instantly without scoring any kills?
I would say that heavy tanks in Bk Mod are pretty balanced.. and are only effective in the hands of good players.
Thus, any changes in this field.. must be taken with extreme care.

at least not by medium tanks or only in very rare cases and with negativ cost efficiency for mediums. And everything else is the same. You lose a tiger to arty? There were sherman armadas that perished without anyone even taking notice of it. When like 20 of them died in a game without anyone of them achieving anything then nobody talked about it. The ammount of res that got wasted there without having anything achieved is quite the same. The only difference: People never cared for it. Nobody wrote "Hey, my hummel just blew up a sherman (or two or three in a barrage)". But everybody shouted out: "Heavy down!" whenver KT/SP/JP died.

So its just about what people realize and what they dont. Our brain is like a filter and the mediums or deaths of mediums got filtered out and kept unnoticed. Even when a single Hetzer knocked out two shermans it kept unnoticed, even when their combined cost may have been as high as those of a Panther (at least MP wise).

[kwok]

So, I would question you back... Hawks.
How many times have you also seen SP, KT, Tigers and Pershings die instantly without scoring any kills?
I would say that heavy tanks in Bk Mod are pretty balanced.. and are only effective in the hands of good players.
Thus, any changes in this field.. must be taken with extreme care.

at least not by medium tanks or only in very rare cases and with negativ cost efficiency for mediums. And everything else is the same. You lose a tiger to arty? There were sherman armadas that perished without anyone even taking notice of it. When like 20 of them died in a game without anyone of them achieving anything then nobody talked about it. The ammount of res that got wasted there without having anything achieved is quite the same. The only difference: People never cared for it. Nobody wrote "Hey, my hummel just blew up a sherman (or two or three in a barrage)". But everybody shouted out: "Heavy down!" whenver KT/SP/JP died.

So its just about what people realize and what they dont. Our brain is like a filter and the mediums or deaths of mediums got filtered out and kept unnoticed. Even when a single Hetzer knocked out two shermans it kept unnoticed, even when their combined cost may have been as high as those of a Panther (at least MP wise).

That's also why the artillery was reworked, so that heavies dont die so easily to support weapons in sudden one-shot safe actions, encouraging directly killing heavies. But in order for players to WANT to kill heavies directly, they NEED to be able to... hence the armor adjustments.

[Tiger1996]

Aaaah; these arty adjustments are a different subject for another day, I would almost want to wage a war on...
Specifically the Stuka half-track, it's literally a joke.. less range, less accuracy, and less AoE.
Yet, 5 CP and only god knows why!

[Shanks]

One thing i saw is that you spend 2 cp on storms and then 2 on tank IV.
When i play BK doc (or other docs= i wait as long as possible untill i get 4-5 cp unless there is a good situation in which a quick house deployment of storms or a quick tank IV J usage could end a game.
The reason is simple. When you think you will need inf you get all boosts right away I dont unlock anything too early untill the situation demands it. If you think you need tanks you can unlock tanks + boosts.
I wonder why players are often so eager to unlock stuff right when they can. Holding back CP´s is often smarter.

Like when you get the stug you could have got a tank IV J already.
Going vs americans while having fuel is usually automatically Tank IV/Puma/Stug and Bk doc. There is nothing they can do about it in this early stage except hiding behind a 57 mm and hoping for lots of luck.
The tank IV H/J is a real pain for US in this stage of the game.
VS CW its quite often a combo of stug and inf (grens storms) instead tank IV.
Two tank IV´s at the time you lost the stug (you could have had two tank IV´s if not even a thrid in production would have steamroled the entire side. I mean even for the loss of a tank IV and a second damaged, you would have taken the initiative as your inf engaged the AT vehicles shortly after. With your res income on your side you could have replaced the losses of the advance.

When you check your res pool at min 18. The US would have had nothing to deal with the ammount of tank IV spam. Sure, the losses by the plane were high but didnt happen if more tank IV´s would have cleared the fields.


Min 33:25: A strafe kills Tanks? or only tanks with open top?


Edit:
How quickly got the medium tank Phase skipped? After 23 mins the first two panthers were on the way. So a short battle with easy eights and stugs took place and hello heavy tanks. Soon followed by jackson and pershing as counter. The only mediums existing were just for anti inf combat. Isnt it some sort of proof why the changes in Beta version are necessary?

Edit II: 49:45: Satchel doesnt destroy an emplacment? I mean isnt satchels sole role to destroy emplacments?

when are you going to play a pvp? upload a repeat, I want to see a game of yours, if you can

[Warhawks97]

One thing i saw is that you spend 2 cp on storms and then 2 on tank IV.
When i play BK doc (or other docs= i wait as long as possible untill i get 4-5 cp unless there is a good situation in which a quick house deployment of storms or a quick tank IV J usage could end a game.
The reason is simple. When you think you will need inf you get all boosts right away I dont unlock anything too early untill the situation demands it. If you think you need tanks you can unlock tanks + boosts.
I wonder why players are often so eager to unlock stuff right when they can. Holding back CP´s is often smarter.

Like when you get the stug you could have got a tank IV J already.
Going vs americans while having fuel is usually automatically Tank IV/Puma/Stug and Bk doc. There is nothing they can do about it in this early stage except hiding behind a 57 mm and hoping for lots of luck.
The tank IV H/J is a real pain for US in this stage of the game.
VS CW its quite often a combo of stug and inf (grens storms) instead tank IV.
Two tank IV´s at the time you lost the stug (you could have had two tank IV´s if not even a thrid in production would have steamroled the entire side. I mean even for the loss of a tank IV and a second damaged, you would have taken the initiative as your inf engaged the AT vehicles shortly after. With your res income on your side you could have replaced the losses of the advance.

When you check your res pool at min 18. The US would have had nothing to deal with the ammount of tank IV spam. Sure, the losses by the plane were high but didnt happen if more tank IV´s would have cleared the fields.


Min 33:25: A strafe kills Tanks? or only tanks with open top?


Edit:
How quickly got the medium tank Phase skipped? After 23 mins the first two panthers were on the way. So a short battle with easy eights and stugs took place and hello heavy tanks. Soon followed by jackson and pershing as counter. The only mediums existing were just for anti inf combat. Isnt it some sort of proof why the changes in Beta version are necessary?

Edit II: 49:45: Satchel doesnt destroy an emplacment? I mean isnt satchels sole role to destroy emplacments?

when are you going to play a pvp? upload a repeat, I want to see a game of yours, if you can

1. I do play games under another name and shown offline in steam. Why so? bc i get pissed that dozens of people write and ask for a game just to "proof" something. Like when i got invited once into a 4 vs 4 with well known players on allied side which often play togeher and some of them hating me due to my forum activities while i get put in a team of axis with players i never heared of. Allied then picked two times RA doc just to "proof me how OP allied are" and why 76 shermans for example shouldnt be boosted (that was before changes of HP, reload time adjustments, speed adjustments etc) at that time. But funnily they used not a single 76 sherman by their own. perhaps knowing how bad inferioir they were at that time.
2. Not much time. Since February i stuck quite deep in Uni stuff and will last till mid september.
3. I was online but only in Beta. Why Beta? bc there are many changes ive been waiting for. Like when arty ranges got changed in Beta but not in regular version i just didnt want to play normal version anymore? Why? BC that bullshit arty spam (esspecially long range rocket arty against which you couldnt do shit about as US as your howitzers had not more rane) that killed tanks in particular in huge numbers pissed me off so extremly that i stopped playing Bk or lets say allied in this case for months or weeks. Even i won the game it just pissed me off how the game was played. So after 2-3 games i stopped BK at first again. Thus i again look only for Beta games and not the normal version anymore.
4. And if i remember correctly we had a 4 vs 4 a few months ago were you played axis and got rushed from the map in like less then 15 mins. I should have the replay but idk which version it was. So what exactly do you want to "see" if i may ask?

[Shanks]

It's true, I left the game fast ... generally I do not waste time when the game is ultra unbalanced and my teammates lose in 5 min, it's the worst, I do not want to play an artificial extension ... I really wanted to see you play the version Current, but I see that you do not like ... on the other hand, if you make big changes in the arty, this game will become very boring. Currently the arty is not OP, only that people are not used to taking care of the units of the arty

[Warhawks97]

It's true, I left the game fast ... generally I do not waste time when the game is ultra unbalanced and my teammates lose in 5 min, it's the worst, I do not want to play an artificial extension ... I really wanted to see you play the version Current, but I see that you do not like ... on the other hand, if you make big changes in the arty, this game will become very boring. Currently the arty is not OP, only that people are not used to taking care of the units of the arty

lol, right, have you played bigger 4 vs 4 games? On bigger maps? The rockets fly all over the place and there is nothing "to care about" bc even between your base and frontline the rockets rained down insta killing tanks.....

Best comment.

I mean i played games for like more than 6 years and the most boring part was exzessive use of arty, no matter what, just arty for all moments.
Above that it was plain silly that a 0 cp 300 MP t2-3 rocket launcher could reach 4 CP howitzers just like that.

I dont think it becomes more boring. Why? Bc its less about pure arty vs arty and instead arty vs defenses with higher damage on direct hit.

[Shanks]

It's true, I left the game fast ... generally I do not waste time when the game is ultra unbalanced and my teammates lose in 5 min, it's the worst, I do not want to play an artificial extension ... I really wanted to see you play the version Current, but I see that you do not like ... on the other hand, if you make big changes in the arty, this game will become very boring. Currently the arty is not OP, only that people are not used to taking care of the units of the arty

lol, right, have you played bigger 4 vs 4 games? On bigger maps? The rockets fly all over the place and there is nothing "to care about" bc even between your base and frontline the rockets rained down insta killing tanks.....

Best comment.

I mean i played games for like more than 6 years and the most boring part was exzessive use of arty, no matter what, just arty for all moments.
Above that it was plain silly that a 0 cp 300 MP t2-3 rocket launcher could reach 4 CP howitzers just like that.

I dont think it becomes more boring. Why? Bc its less about pure arty vs arty and instead arty vs defenses with higher damage on direct hit.

and what does it matter that it rains arty ?, if you are a good player, you will not have too many problems in liquidate an arty player

[Warhawks97]

oh shanks.... why should i play the game then? Just to see arty rain again and to eliminate arty players`? Permanently facing walking stukas and stuff.... and no matter what i do.... i face arty.... and its not that this arty is most annyoing as US where you can bomb their defenses due to inferior ownm arty but also unable to reach theirs while getting bombed nonstop before any battle begins...

[Shanks]

oh shanks.... why should i play the game then? Just to see arty rain again and to eliminate arty players`? Permanently facing walking stukas and stuff.... and no matter what i do.... i face arty.... and its not that this arty is most annyoing as US where you can bomb their defenses due to inferior ownm arty but also unable to reach theirs while getting bombed nonstop before any battle begins...

and what is the problem? In every war there is arty, this game is not about "only inf or only tank or only arty", practically what you tell me is that this game, you can simply win it with arty, and it is not like that ! ... it really is hard for me to understand you

[Tiger1996]

What pisses me off about the arty adjustments in the beta.. is the following:

- BEFORE the beta:
Nasty ways, are called "camp and bomb" tactics.

- AFTER the beta:
They are just called "camp" tactics, and no bombing.

No idea why the arty tools have to be punished.. before punishing the so called "camping tactics" first.

[kwok]

I agree with warhawks, the skill differential to have a game using only arty vs not being able to use arty at all was too great. If you take a player who didn't use tanks, they can still be highly effective. If you take a player who didn't use arty, the skill gap needed to be just as effective and impactful was frustrating. This creates a meta of focusing on arty (and other off map) as a priority over any other type of unit. Shanks, you are a hardcore arty player only playing doctrines with artillery. Not to say you are a bad player, but if you played any other doctrine that lacks arty I think you would find it very difficult and unenjoyable. It's "unejoyable" portion that makes arty "bad". Because if you can't play other docs because the meta dictates it's not efficient to play those docs, then it highlights the problem in game design. It's why many new players choose terror doc over blitz. It's why new players choose infantry over air. It's why new players choose artillery over RE. Because they feel shut down every time they try to play something without artillery. Meanwhile, only high skill players dare to venture into other doctrines but even then, when they play "serious games" they tend to lean towards a doctrine with artillery while scolding new players when theyve chosen doctrines like air, blitz, RE, armor, etc. Honestly I should start blatantly recording games where people are being shitty to others and we can draw up correlations between doctrines, player behavior, and general sentiments of a certain game. People BITCH HARD about artillery...


(well... currently the scourge of luft kind of overshadows artillery... but that's for another topic another time).


EDIT:

I don't want to start drama and I'm not going to say who were the participants of teh conversation. But this is pretty much a transcript of a conversation I was lucky to have someone help me capture.

History BEFORE the convo: I was playing a 4v4 game (which I expected EVERYONE to know by now I HATE but decided to play purely to be a teammate for a friend who asked me to join despite me REALLY not wanting to play it). The map was originally goodwood revised. I requested a different version of a map to be played because I felt the revised version is badly balanced and encourages hard camping and pure arty fights. They accept my map request and the game starts. Note that JUST BECAUSE I asked for a different 4v4 map DOESNT change my opinion on 4v4 maps in general. SO I went def doc and built 1 emplacement, fired that artillery piece JUST ONCE. THAT is when the bitching started. I don't know if I have that particular game replay saved, but I only fired arty ONCE and multiple opponents started complaining HARD about how somehow requested that specific map so i could arty them unjustly???? As if that map favored my artillery over the other version???? So that game ended.

Tried joining ANOTHER game with the same people that wasn't a 4v4. But it was also on what I felt was a "small map". So I asked for a map change and this was the conversation that went down:

Host: @kwok, no big map cuz ____ pc [couldn't handle]
Host: and hugel is big enough
Kwok: yeah okay, just dont complain when i arty spam. that's all i ask.
Host: if u arty spam
Host: I will kick u now
Host: like that
Kwok: okay go ahead
Host: I play 3 times in 3 different games and u use def doc
Host: Arty
Host: what's wrong with u?
Kwok: cuz you went air? 3 times? in 3 different games?
Kwok: and def counters armor and air?
Host: No, raf.. armor and air
Other player: actually you complained about the goodwood versions pointing out the arty spam thing
Kwok: i fired arty like... once
Kwok: and then ___ and ___ complained
Kwok: I hardly see that as a "spam"
Kwok: then i got angry cuz they complained
Host: ok then
Host: this game will be played
Host: on this map
Host: so, if u dont like it
Host: cuz u think it's too small
Host: then u can kindly leave
Kwok: sure one second
Kwok: ill leave give me 2 min

at this point this is where i started trying to get notes on the conversation to bring up as evidence that artillery spamming IS a problem for conversations just like this. But I was kicked pretty quickly and wasn't given my 2 minutes to leave by myself. After I left, the convo continued

Other other player: why did you kick kwok?
host: cuz he deserves it
Other player: arty spammer
Other other player: why does he deserve it?
host: played about 3 times with him this week.. everytime complains about arty fest in lobby
Host: but when we start
Host: he goes def, always
Host: and uses arty...
Host: he makes no sense

At that point I don't have any more about the convo.
I'm not trying to out ANYONE by bringing the convo up. BUT, I feel like this is pretty much evidence that people's enjoyment of the game are CLEARLY impacted by some type of option in the game. I'll take a quote from Tiger in another thread:
"All options are available, and people can choose."
I chose the option that I know will get me the highest probability of winning. I won't win them all... but I can damn come close no matter what the teams are because I'm taking the meta, the formula, the exact thing that I'm trying to prove ruins games for people. But apparently, when I'm extremely open about it and tell people up front what i'm going to do... so they can expect it coming... I'm the one that's the villain.

Does this story sound familiar WARHAWKS? WHO REMEMBERS THE OLD 88s BEFORE WARHAWKS WENT ON HIS CRUSADE?

[Warhawks97]

oh shanks.... why should i play the game then? Just to see arty rain again and to eliminate arty players`? Permanently facing walking stukas and stuff.... and no matter what i do.... i face arty.... and its not that this arty is most annyoing as US where you can bomb their defenses due to inferior ownm arty but also unable to reach theirs while getting bombed nonstop before any battle begins...

and what is the problem? In every war there is arty, this game is not about "only inf or only tank or only arty", practically what you tell me is that this game, you can simply win it with arty, and it is not like that ! ... it really is hard for me to understand you

you still havent got it or?

US only real arty: 105 howitzers, static, 4 CP, 225 range.....Their calli rocket reaches as far as 150 range but with no chance killing tanks with up to 50% HP.
Axis: 0 CP rocket arty with 175-200 range and capable killing full HP tanks. I mean every axis doc except luft has arty with 175-200+ range.... no prob... even grille and sturmtiger etc. Even TH doc reached 175 range.

Allis: Uh, dont get them too much. Just one doc can exceed 200 range+ being mobile.
+
Axis tanks and vehicles taking 25% less damage from arty which is a cuical when arty lands close and gets spammed. An average axis tank cant die from close hits even when an entire 6 round 105 mm barrage lands close to it. Allied tanks could die from 2-3 close hits.


Got it now? It got much fairer in beta with costly howitzers being not outgunned and reached by standard neblers, both sides vehicles and tanks take same damage from arty and arty is less no brain "near base camp". It also needs to get positioned smartly.


You havent got my point and you have no idea about ww2 arty or (i mean in depth knowlegde, not propaganda videos)? If you need to discuss more, pm me in steam or so.

What pisses me off about the arty adjustments in the beta.. is the following:

- BEFORE the beta:
Nasty ways, are called "camp and bomb" tactics.

What axis could do extremely well since the first days of BK existence.

- AFTER the beta:
They are just called "camp" tactics, and no bombing.

Thats the situation US stuck in over years. They got death camped and bombed while unable to camp or bomb back.


We had to options:
1. Camp and bomb for all. That would have meant that even US would have had a doc with one capable mobile long range arty and less limits on arty. That has been my favoured way. When camp isnt limited, arty shouldnt be as well.
2. Balance the bomb capabilties. Thats what we did. US can use its howitzers more efficiently at least as long as it doesnt face SE doc. Before even TH doc outclassed inf doc. So we have limited and thus balanced the bomb capabilties as we didnt want to increase them for US to provide them some anti camp tools as well. If its good for the camp vs bomb balance, well, we will see. But its more fair at least.
No idea why the arty tools have to be punished.. before punishing the so called "camping tactics" first.[/quote]

I agree with warhawks, the skill differential to have a game using only arty vs not being able to use arty at all was too great. If you take a player who didn't use tanks, they can still be highly effective. If you take a player who didn't use arty, the skill gap needed to be just as effective and impactful was frustrating. This creates a meta of focusing on arty (and other off map) as a priority over any other type of unit. Shanks, you are a hardcore arty player only playing doctrines with artillery. Not to say you are a bad player, but if you played any other doctrine that lacks arty I think you would find it very difficult and unenjoyable. It's "unejoyable" portion that makes arty "bad". Because if you can't play other docs because the meta dictates it's not efficient to play those docs, then it highlights the problem in game design. It's why many new players choose terror doc over blitz. It's why new players choose infantry over air. It's why new players choose artillery over RE. Because they feel shut down every time they try to play something without artillery. Meanwhile, only high skill players dare to venture into other doctrines but even then, when they play "serious games" they tend to lean towards a doctrine with artillery while scolding new players when theyve chosen doctrines like air, blitz, RE, armor, etc. Honestly I should start blatantly recording games where people are being shitty to others and we can draw up correlations between doctrines, player behavior, and general sentiments of a certain game. People BITCH HARD about artillery...

Thx, love you, that expresses my feelings and experiences. I loved to play BK and Armor doc, the two docs with the lowest ammount of arty in their respective factions, but it got often very frustrating.

[Shanks]

@Warhawks97-I do not know what they are referring to, hahaha, but I use the artillery to support my companions, so they can use their tanks with less dangers or things similar to these (I could play with any other doctrine and smash my enemies, Idont playing just with arty), in general, I think that currently "ALL the artillery of the GAME is OK", however, I'm going to try the beta, to see what kinds of changes they made, and if I do notlike something, I'll let you know as suggestions, since it is not in my hands to modify the changes ..... now, I do not know what kind of concepts you have about the game "camp", but from themoment you put a sniper or mg42 in coverage, you are already doing a "camp" game, so, I do not know what bothers you, the enemy fronts are to be overrun or otherwise, so they surpass you, and it is normal,the artillery is not the problem, it is simply basic strategy, they talk about the stuka being strong and similar things, however, to It depends on how well the enemy is doing, so that he can use stukas, every time ... in a game of high level of difficulty, many times, you do not even have ammunition to use them, or otherwise, it would seem that the artillery it's not enough to win,what I think


@kwok-I liked that chat .... but only one question, do you know me (usually a lot of angre)..... why people do not complain about arty in my games ?, I hope an answer

[Devilfish]

It is not fault of the players they play meta, it is fault of the game if meta is boring. Ideal state would be if there was no meta at all, but that is basically impossible to achieve. It's human's nature to look for optimal ways and same applies for the desire to win. PvP is competitive game, both sides want to win, otherwise it doesn't make sense. If you don't play meta, you are either creating a challenge for yourself, because your opponents are weaker, or you will lose and then complain that everybody plays meta.

[kwok]

@kwok-I liked that chat .... but only one question, do you know me (usually a lot of angre)..... why people do not complain about arty in my games ?, I hope an answer

Lol because you play with friends like me. We complain in friendliness. I complain to you all the time, but kindly HAHA. But there are players that people just do not like to fight against... we do it because we are friends and we are running out of players to face. I think Wurf is a good player and a friend, I have no problem with him personally but GODDAMN I HATE facing him in game. I still FACE him but daaaaammnnnn his style is aggravating.

[Shanks]

@kwok-I liked that chat .... but only one question, do you know me (usually a lot of angre)..... why people do not complain about arty in my games ?, I hope an answer

Lol because you play with friends like me. We complain in friendliness. I complain to you all the time, but kindly HAHA. But there are players that people just do not like to fight against... we do it because we are friends and we are running out of players to face. I think Wurf is a good player and a friend, I have no problem with him personally but GODDAMN I HATE facing him in game. I still FACE him but daaaaammnnnn his style is aggravating.

it is true what you say, but I also play with many new players without any complaints during the game (not about arty) ... also those who usually play bk , for example, david father waffle walder opel royalcompanion mefisto figree wurf dolphin untechar tiger mercifu bk champion shadow and other players, they do not complain about the arty ..., I really do not think it's the arty the problem ... anyway, I'll try the beta

[kwok]

@kwok-I liked that chat .... but only one question, do you know me (usually a lot of angre)..... why people do not complain about arty in my games ?, I hope an answer

Lol because you play with friends like me. We complain in friendliness. I complain to you all the time, but kindly HAHA. But there are players that people just do not like to fight against... we do it because we are friends and we are running out of players to face. I think Wurf is a good player and a friend, I have no problem with him personally but GODDAMN I HATE facing him in game. I still FACE him but daaaaammnnnn his style is aggravating.

it is true what you say, but I also play with many new players without any complaints during the game (not about arty) ... also those who usually play bk , for example, david father waffle walder opel royalcompanion mefisto figree wurf dolphin untechar tiger mercifu bk champion shadow and other players, they do not complain about the arty ..., I really do not think it's the arty the problem ... anyway, I'll try the beta

I don't want to speak for others... but I can tell you from things that happen to me and things that I think are happening in the current meta.

Players definitely still complain, at least to me. I think a lot of players have become very comfortable with asking/complaining to me about games (though recently I made have been a bit bitchy back to them. if some people are reading this and i've bitched back, sorry).

Arty has also recently become "less of a problem" because of the scourging luft meta. Tons of games seem to revolve more around luft, its off map abilities, and countering luft. So arty has been put in a little bit more background. But when an arty game comes around, as you've seen with my chat, people still complain.

Arty has become more "normalized" and an accept evil fate with people just hoping for the new beta to come out with better solutions. It's kind of funny, I remember peopel were excited for the beta but then when it first released it.... wasn't... really well received...... arty accidentally became even BIGGER of a problem cuz tanks were so slow that despite the arty adjustments they still were tank coutners. so that demoralized players into just (incorrectly) accepting their fate that arty will never be balanced by devs... WHICH BY THE WAY ISNT TRUE. IF I HAVE TO TELL PLAYERS IT'S FUCKING TESTING ONE MORE TIME I SWEAR TO GOD I WILL MAKE THEIR BK LIFE A LIVING HELL

Lastly, no offense shanks, but you are REALLY rusty right now haha. When you practice again and come back remembering how to build a front line for your arty, then players will remember agian how painful artillery is (unless luft still mega dominates and remains the main topic of bitching).

[Tiger1996]

But when an arty game comes around, as you've seen with my chat, people still complain.

About the chat, I think the host was more annoyed about a certain behaviour from your side.. not arty in particular.
If you have really played Def doc 3 times in the row, then I guess he felt like you were only trying to piss him off, rather than trying to prove anything.. thus, he acted in that manner with you, which I doubt that he usually does the same with anyone else.

From what I understand, the host did not say anything when you used arty the first game with him.. but he only started speaking the 3rd time, right? That proves that he was not irritated because you used arty, but more irritated from you in person.

[kwok]

I arty party almost 90% of my small map games, it is almost widely recognized and expected now. It had nothing to do specifically at the host, my spite is directed at everyone. so yes I did it to piss as many people off because they are high and mighty about their way of playing as "okay" but they're not okay when I play the most efficient tactic available AKA meta on their small maps.

People want to lobby their formula to work in the forum, i'll lobby for my formula to NOT work on the forum. Play big maps like devs recommend and this wouldn't be a problem.

It is not fault of the players they play meta, it is fault of the game if meta is boring. Ideal state would be if there was no meta at all, but that is basically impossible to achieve. It's human's nature to look for optimal ways and same applies for the desire to win. PvP is competitive game, both sides want to win, otherwise it doesn't make sense. If you don't play meta, you are either creating a challenge for yourself, because your opponents are weaker, or you will lose and then complain that everybody plays meta.

If the way I choose to play is so offensive then change the way the game is played.

[Tiger1996]

so yes I did it to piss as many people off

Well, that explains a lot.. can't blame him for kicking you out of his host then.
And btw, I was told that this arty formula couldn't bring you victory in any of the 3 games, proving that it's not really effective to achieve a win.. but only effective in pissing people off.

[Shanks]

Lastly, no offense shanks, but you are REALLY rusty right now haha. When you practice again and come back remembering how to build a front line for your arty, then players will remember agian how painful artillery is (unless luft still mega dominates and remains the main topic of bitching).

do you mean me? ... wow hahahaha