Stalemate 2v2

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Tiger1996
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Stalemate 2v2

Postby Tiger1996 » 08 May 2018, 16:40

Allies

Me >>> infantry doctrine.

Bk Champion >>> Armor doctrine.

VS

Axis

Wurf >>> Luft doctrine.

Volks >>> Terror doctrine.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E23iTlXUVng
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Video Thumbnail


Despite than infantry doctrine isn't my best, but it was still fun playing it!

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Warhawks97
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Re: Stalemate 2v2

Postby Warhawks97 » 08 May 2018, 20:15

min 12:49....

The first thing they get: Nebler and trying to kill a greyhound. Why for fuck sake they didnt get a single damn Puma with 20 mm canon? Or even two? Perhaps you gonna upload the 3 vs 3 we had at vim... similiar map style as this one. I played terror and didnt use a arty for a single damn time....

btw. this was the game you asked me for to join? Thanks god i was busy with BF3.

Grens, Several Pumas, AT squad and recon is actually everything you need. Arty is perhaps needed once or twice per game. Nonstop grens, schrecks, stgs supported by Puma and Mortar and later perhaps supported by stugs.
Basically Luft and Terror combo can be played similiar as allied inf/raf combo (almost). Dont waste too much ammo for usless stuff. Spare it for one or two game deciding off maps. As Terror i am currently using officers off map arty and firestorm and my only arty unit in late game is the sturmtiger perhaps. And it works very well so far.

But each time i get a "brain collapse" when i am in game (axis or allis) and seeing this instant rush and spam for arty and complaining about allied vehicles just bcs they have no idea how to get a Puma (THE Vehicle in game). Damn, i got an outrage almost this time just when i heared the sound again in this vid and thats just at the beginning.
Arty units -not talking about off maps bc they are not spammy and costly- are often just toooo delicious for many players (95%). Esspecially to those playing terror and TH (To my surprise, one of the doctrines i started facing in almost every game). Cheap, almost instant available, deadly.....

Edit: Oh, i also used the Ranger squad with HMG and captain nearby with great success against axis elite inf. But idk how good its survivability against arty spam is.

And Jumbo Sherman as backbone, main assault unit and game saver in the infantry doctrine for the americans.. idk how else thinks that the US design still has some flaws. Perhaps we add churchills to RAF doc as well in future. Or King Tiger to SE or whatever.

The second flaw for US: There are just three single time options for US shared over three doctrines to actually kill a KT in normal combat situations (every other death cause is lack of users brain or simply a game that was lost long long long bevor the KT came or super bad luck; eg. 76 oneshot KT just like that)... Bomber planes, Long Tom, SP.


Edit: 1 h 12 mins: Why using this off map vs KT with so much health? Even if all six shots of the salvo would hit the KT directly the damage wouldnt be sufficient due to the huge damage resistance to arty and the ammount of HP. Even with half HP this 105 salvo wouldnt make it.

And as final advise2 to you tiger:
1. Dont forget supply yard
2. Snipers can be very usefull vs rambos. Just they dont like arty (what is the case you face terror)
3. Captain perhaps earlier when games is going to be turned out into such a long game.
4. The captain and 7 men rifle squad can be a usefull backbone while saving ammo for stuff like AP rounds and nades and off maps. Basically i started playing inf quite similiar to terror. Dont use ammo for anything but nades and off maps. I dont upgrade my grens or stugs and as US i am using the rangers from the truck with this special training, HMG rangers and rifles 7 men squad. You lose far less MP to constant arty spam when using these instead of expensive rangers. Captain, 7 men rifles and snipers are also a great tool. Just put them in a way that they can take enemies into a crossfire.
Last edited by Warhawks97 on 09 May 2018, 16:18, edited 1 time in total.

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Tiger1996
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Re: Stalemate 2v2

Postby Tiger1996 » 09 May 2018, 01:20

It might be worth to mention by the way that this game here was actually a rematch. So, we had one game before this!
Teams and sides were exact same but the map was different (it was Duclair) and we won in 45 minutes.

Warhawks97 wrote:And Jumbo Sherman as backbone, main assault unit and game saver in the infantry doctrine for the americans.. idk how else thinks that the US design still has some flaws. Perhaps we add churchills to RAF doc as well in future. Or King Tiger to SE or whatever.

I think spamming the Jumbo was in fact my mistake. The tank costs 680 MP and 80 fuel, but still died to airstrikes anyway... For the same cost, I could have deployed 2 regular HE Shermans! Which are still pretty effective for just 800 MP and 80 fuel (400 MP/40 fuel each) as I believe that the 75mm Jumbo Sherman would make a lot more sense in the hands of my Armor doc team-mate who had desperately needed them against Luft inf on his side.

MenciusMoldbug
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Re: Stalemate 2v2

Postby MenciusMoldbug » 09 May 2018, 07:25

Warhawks97 wrote:
And Jumbo Sherman as backbone, main assault unit and game saver in the infantry doctrine for the americans.. idk how else thinks that the US design still has some flaws. Perhaps we add churchills to RAF doc as well in future. Or King Tiger to SE or whatever.

The second flaw for US: There are just three single time options for US shared over three doctrines to actually kill a KT in normal combat situations (every other death cause is lack of users brain or simply a game that was lost long long long bevor the KT came or super bad luck; eg. 76 oneshot KT just like that)... Bomber planes, Long Tom, KT.


Infantry play in the late game is very unrewarding across all factions. Whether it be Inf, RAF, Luftwaffe, or AB(these guys being the best because they have a godlike patrol ability that kills everything). Simply because BK does not reward you for actually using infantry against tanks and 75% of the time the vehicle out-attritions your infantry before you manage to kill it(so it basically pays itself off).

I mean what's the plan here? You can't reliably use handheld AT against these late game tanks because they take forever to reload. A King Tiger can actually fire off 4 shells(reload speed of 5.5-4.5) while a bazooka takes 18 seconds to reload. What makes this worse is that you are not even rewarded for getting close to these tanks as panzershrecks/bazookas reload EVEN SLOWER when they are closer to the target(with the reload duration modifier going up by 25% in the case of bazooka at short range!). I checked corsix again, and found out that the bazooka actually takes 5 seconds longer to reload than a panzershreck(13s reload) as well...

Not only that, but most of these late game tanks get ridiculous view range. Where in the case of the Hetzer; if it has spotting scope + tank commander + it is hiding in ambush; It has almost the same view range as a hidden observing kettenkrad. So even if you do try to flank these tanks they will most likely see it coming so you need something that goes very fast and manages to get off multiple shots into the target. Rather than these AT squads which get a one-off strike and have to retreat because they will never reload in time for the next one before they are dead.

Which means using infantry against a Panther, Tiger, King Tiger is actually a worse option than spamming artillery or tanks at it. Which means infantry company, a doc which is supposedly focused on infantry is... stuck spamming AT emplacements, artillery strikes, and M10s with jumbos/M4s late game.

I have seen games of a King Tiger simply charging an inf doc player not caring about any AT capabilities he had at all. Even when the inf doc player managed to outflank the King Tiger and have a clear shot at its rear armor with 4 HEAT bazookas his reward was... 3 bounces and 1 miss.

So putting all this together:

- Have all handheld AT have close to the reload rates of PIATs(5-4 seconds); make it around 7-8(reload time of most medium tanks) seconds so the PIAT doesn't lose its advantage over other AT weapons and it isn't shooting too fast.

- Remove this reload penalty for vehicles that are close to your AT squads; maybe even reverse it so handheld AT shoots faster when it is closer to the target.

- Equalize the reload rates of the axis/american AT, there is no reason a bazooka should take 5 seconds longer to reload than a panzershreck.

- Give back AB squads their second recoiless. This weapon isn't that great; so stacking it on a single AB squad doesn't make that much of a difference in the late game at all.

- Let infantry doctrine get more bazookas somehow, they are the most limited when it comes to infantry AT when they really shouldn't be(maybe increase the maximum cap of AT squads they can build from 2 to 4).

- Give Wehrmacht and USA vehicle buttoning. USA will find this to be a crucial ability in the late game against these heavy tanks and it will actually differentiate Rangers from just being better riflemen with a single zooka upgrade.

Funnily enough, PIATs are actually the best AT weapon in the game. Not only because they reload the fastest and can shoot over obstacles; But it also feels like they have the best chances of immobilizing vehicles on penetrating hits.

Also off-topic from this post but the Staghound's main gun does deflection damage on bounces so hopefully that can be fixed too.

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Tiger1996
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Re: Stalemate 2v2

Postby Tiger1996 » 09 May 2018, 16:33

I can agree that 2nd RL could come back for 101st squads.. can also agree that Zookas would have same reload time as Shrecks, and if there is some sort of a modifier that makes them reload longer when close to the target, then yes.. it should be removed. That's of course by having to notify that 2s aim time should never become less.. so aim time always untouched, regardless if close or far away from the target, that's because the aim time was added to prevent a certain glitch in the first place.

I can agree however that all handheld AT weapons would have less reload time generally.. but no way less than 9 seconds at minimum.

As for inf doc, I don't agree to expand their AT arsenal though.. the changes mentioned above would be enough. Also, let's keep in mind Axis docs are getting a rework so heavy tanks won't be everywhere anymore.

Nonetheless, a better idea would be to allow inf doc AT teams (limited 2 units only) being able to crawl by default.. once the player picks inf doc. The same way, TH doc AT teams could be able to do the same but after veterancy unlock. Eventually, the StormTroops should be also able to crawl with Shrecks, as it does already require many CPs to enable their evasive actions.

And ya, i talked about this huge sight range of tanks before... I also think it's rediculious.


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