The Clash of Two Elite Teams!

[JimQwilleran]

No words can describe how fierce and exhausting this battle was. So many great comebacks, so many surprising tactics (including massed glider landing in bases!). I cant describe how richer I have become thanks to this game! I have to thank other players who participated in the game, especially Erich, without whom the victory would be nothing!

All new and all old Bk players should watch this replay as it sets new standards for the whole mod tactics. I cant wait for all experienced players to rate this exceptional replay!

Please watch this very carefully, also keep your eye on the chat window so u dont miss any important notes from players themselves!

Butter, Cyber, Armacalic, Hawks, I wait especially for your comments !

[Krieger Blitzer]

Good to see that u have posted this rematch of the previous game, yes and although of all the mess on the chat bar.. I honestly enjoyed... GG!

But hey; don't call me an elite player because I am not an elite CW player yet anyhow.

[JimQwilleran]

Dude, dont be so humble! Comon, we all know u are one of the best pros here! I must say that after I won this game I felt a great proud from winning with such a good player!

[Warhawks97]

Oh, its autry again. I dont like that map, even for commenting.

Such "base" dropps are well known tactic on that map. Since i can remember player doing such things. Ive once dropped luftwaffe inf into enemie base (or next to it). It ruined the entire allied game and i killed like 5 enemie inf squads in a second that were there to reinforce.

Ive even seen AB´s dropping near base and throwing satchels on HQ to destroy it.

or another thing possible there was to upgrade fuel on allied corner and taking one middle point. And then waiting and producing later 8 easy eights and rushing straight to enemie base.

Or once Möbelwagen stupa comeback when we (me and mess) had only the fuel point left.



This map is weird and i hate it. So i will see if i will watch another autry game for comments.


Also what means "elite teams". You and erich could improve teamplay (generally speaking( and lehr and Tiger, well, idk if they even play as a "team" or rather just together because they are mates. Their Teamplay could be improved by lot as there hardly is any. I mean combined attacks, sharing capabilities (like one gets arty, other inf or one inf one tanks etc) and so on. Instead they often doubling stuff. To that comes ressource managment fails. For example both have 1000 MP in reserve and an ammo income of like 35. But instead upgrading one or two save medium ammo points they both spend the MP for double wespe and walking stuka. All MP gone and ammo wasted right after one salvo of each unit.

So i would be carefull with "elite team". As for you illa, i really enjoy playing with you but you should always have a "back up player". You are the aggressive one and i adjusted my style and doctrine choice which means i am less aggressive and more defense and support (advanced repairs with PE, krads etc). But when i play with guys like sukin then i prefer being the aggressive "non-stop pusher" while sukin saves my ass with his units and patience style, finally finishing off the enemie. And here is where i cant say yet who is what in your team (you and erich). I might know it and so i guess both of you play the style i am used to see from both of you.


Really good teams are extremly rare. With that i mean teams with players that have different gameplays but always able to adjust to each other and even switching in their roles. Here for example you could improve your supportive style when someone else is the aggressive player. But the player that can play many different styles is usually the one who adjusts his game to the other players in the team but also the one who teaches the other players over the time and in case taking the command during the game (when team is using TS).

[JimQwilleran]

So i would be carefull with "elite team". As for you illa, i really enjoy playing with you but you should always have a "back up player". You are the aggressive one and i adjusted my style and doctrine choice which means i am less aggressive and more defense and support (advanced repairs with PE, krads etc). But when i play with guys like sukin then i prefer being the aggressive "non-stop pusher" while sukin saves my ass with his units and patience style, finally finishing off the enemie. And here is where i cant say yet who is what in your team (you and erich). I might know it and so i guess both of you play the style i am used to see from both of you.

We are so cool that we are above any classifications.

But seriously, thx for hints.

[Erich]

The most funny thing is how they went double RAF trying prove how RAF is op etc etc and at the end of the game ''they are just noob as brits'' anyway was a good game,except the base bombing. I was trying play like a gentleman but the base bomb ruined all chances to a good match with tatics and strategic and ended with agressive rushing withouut strategy from both sides.

[Warhawks97]

The most funny thing is how they went double RAF trying prove how RAF is op etc etc and at the end of the game ''they are just noob as brits'' anyway was a good game,except the base bombing. I was trying play like a gentleman but the base bomb ruined all chances to a good match with tatics and strategic and ended with agressive rushing withouut strategy from both sides.

I love that. When all the carefully set ups are gone and defenses down and every well planned plan burried and lots of units dead. I extremly love that and chaos is what i like most except with inf doc. I like chaos with BK and armor doc while as inf and RE i really try to prevent chaos or to cause chaos only from the enemie side. RAF and AB is good in chaotic games. Most docs are very good in chaotic games except inf and RE doc. There i try (or must) to gain the controle. RE can contribute with comets and m10 very well in chaotic games due to speed and firepower. Firefly and churchills are better to regain controle if possible. Inf doc is pure horror in chaotic games though rangers with vet upgrade and cheap production can do very well there. But problem is that you cant controle as many units as you could field and so a huge part of the res which usually goes into emplacments is not used. In such moments i just keep spamming emplacments (when i have too much in reserve) trying to gain sooner or later the controle. If that doesnt happen then inf doc dies quite often during the late game armor stage.


But yeah, that short term decision games is what i like. I purely follow my feelings then where to put which unit which often means that one unit is send to do job x and finally ending up doing job y and z.


Once a ancient military guy said something like: "Every plan dies with the first clash (with the enemie)". And so how i play the game. I never do long term thinking and instead create like 5 new plans for 5 different units within a 15 second assault. Such games are simply the best.

[Armacalic]

Once a ancient military guy said something like: "Every plan dies with the first clash (with the enemie)"

No battle plan ever survives contact with the enemy.

It's this one.

I'll check the replay Soon (tm).

[Warhawks97]

Once a ancient military guy said something like: "Every plan dies with the first clash (with the enemie)"

No battle plan ever survives contact with the enemy.

It's this one.

I'll check the replay Soon (tm).

yeah, that one:P

In all strategy games i do act like that. I have a small plan before an attack but i do "plan" most first when i have contact with the enemie. I just react how i feel.


But it wasnt moltke who said it firts iirc. But not sure though.

[Armacalic]

In all strategy games i do act like that. I have a small plan before an attack but i do "plan" most first when i have contact with the enemie. I just react how i feel.

But it wasnt moltke who said it firts iirc. But not sure though.

Then you're probably thinking this one too:
I tell this story to illustrate the truth of the statement I heard long ago in the Army: Plans are worthless, but planning is everything.

[Warhawks97]

Comments on game (watching only axis perspective and fog of war):

2 min 16 seconds: Illa, when you push so well vs brits then lock them down. Schwimms can deny but cant lock brits. Snipers can do it very well. Also volks and 37 mm pak. Dont use HMG. You dont need it vs brits. Their comebacks are being made with gliders, arty and recce as well as cluster attack. RE is doint that with first churhcill. So static unit is bad here. The only static unit should be 37 and 50 mm pak vs brits mainly against recce. The 50 mm pak is the core actually. Inf cant do anything really as their inf is bad for offense and which get skirmished by your snipers. Those covered with volks in first line, sniper on pak line and puma/schwimm somewhere between. So these 400 MP need to be spend now.

3:42: Dont build HMG illa. Save res now so that you can get mortar and next building at once and thus quickly a Puma.

@erich: Use sandbags with volks. Dont attack brits with green cover and leutnant unless you have also green cover. Build sandbags so that enemie would have to leave their green cover to fight you. That way volks can do great denial. In combat concentrate fire on leutnant.

when you play vs brits then two things are important:

1. Try to push them so that they dont get a mortar pit near an important area. If this is done, camp by your own. Brits cant camp as they must get important points then. 2. But if you push to far with axis you overstrain your lines and CW will make a comeback. You just had to deny the ammo points. Means you could stay behind them and just deny capture by using your mobile Mg42 plattforms and volks with sandbags+sniper. Then mortar, puma, 50 mm pak its GG for brits in 90% of all games.


4:39. You made the second mistake^^. You wanted to lock them right in base and wasted your vehicles which could be used much better as movment denial vehicles rather than attackers against CW inf formations.

6:54. Get Puma and Pak. The critical "recce" stage comes closer. When i play vs brits then i do feel save when i have puma, pak, mortar, sniper and an inf squad. Then you just need to get nebler and tank IV´s (as team).


Well... both go for AT squad. In the early stage -before the insane inf rushes occure- a 50 mm pak is more or less a must. Schrecks are for attacking but early game is a lot more about positioning of infantry and battles more static and cover use. So a 50 mm can deny an area much better, allowing protect own inf against recces from distance. So as team one should get at least one 50 mm pak to lock down brits. Puma and inf cover the pak.


10-10:30. First time ever ive seen such teamplay from tiger and lehr lol. So yeah... Pumas are a must have for all WH players (BK, terror).

12-55-13:05. Ehm. A Tank IV shouldnt bounce 57 mm AT guns. wtf. That should be fixed.

14:28. Name... you should get walking stuka, erich many Tank IV´s etc. Nebler and grens would also work but big tanks isnt good vs brits simply as they have 17 pdr. Use stgs, schrecks and arty vs brits, thats all you need. So next time spam grens with stgs and schreck squads instead going too fast for Panther G.


15:38. NEBLER... AWW. Or also an option would be to let erich spam tanks while you get firestorm to crack resistans. Illa you had sooo many option to quickly end that game. I mean you saw that they had two RAF so no "churchill surprise". Why panther G?..... Grens, nebler, firestorm......GG.

16:09. Erich skills inf, you as terror tanks:D If you rush like that then do it the other way arround. The 17 pdr knocks Panther as well as tank IV, so why spending for Panther G when Tank IV would be a pain for brits as well? So as "elite team" you would have never done that mistake.

In short: vs US get big armor as US has masses but barely something to pen anything above Panther. Vs Brits get stugs and tank IV´s in masses. Brits cant frontal rush and they get nothing cheaper than 17 pdr to stop it. So next time BK doc tank IV´s etc, you arty and gren spam.


Min 18: This is why i think axis are crazy. They dont need many units and big armies. Axis is best player with very few units and non stop attack. They dont need a defense and thus they have no back up. And when allied think they can attack then the next axis tank comes to kill the allied push and going directly for their own attack. Axis are just as spammy as US. The only difference is that Axis can spam deadly strong units when they have nothing anymore. Allied to need to carefully set up their offense with lots of units. A single Easy eight will never roam like a single tank IV H.

18:50. I am saying that thousand times to everybody: Do upgrade the base repair station. Its worth the 75 ammo and reduces micro. I send tanks back to base and dont have to care about them anymore. Why does nobody uses that fucking base rep stations? Ok, illa does to repair panther. Good.

And funny, first both go full aggressive, then nobody does. thats dangerous.

32:40: This... Get big tank. There is a pak? use arty. The salvo failed but still. @Illa: Walking stuka on max range shooting are bad without vet. Get closer a bit. With vet scatter is reduced (only for axis rocket arty. Its vcoh remnant).

34:11: Thats the prove i am talking about. Storms even kill HMG42 with green cover. The allied HMGs can do shit against them and only cal 50 HMg shows some effect. But esspecially later with vet (and craters and leader bonis) Luft and storms and grens can simply ignore HMG´s. I mean i already did overrun 3 allied cal 30 emplacmants with just two storm squads a losing in total just 2 men.

OK, game gets boring. Allied seem that they just want to survive as long as possible. But besides these base bomb and base glider drops there is nothing allied really do. Completely checkmated. Maybe this was a lesson that airstrikes and glider drops are not everything. They need to be used smart.

That conversation. What i dont get is why tiger is blaming allied OP here and there but then saying he is a noob with brits. So when he is a noob with brits i wonder why he comes up to forum with "OP firefly" etc. Sure you killed Panther but you hide between billion of paks. But when axis cant get far with armor, then they use arty. If you would have tried to win that one you would have seen that lots of res would have been spend for inf etc and thus less remaining for paks. But doing absolutely nothing but hiding behind 17 pdrs and then saying "Panther is bad" because it scored not x billion kills is really dump. Ok the firely made a lucky oneshot but still. CW used all in all 850 MP and like 130 fuel for Command tank and Firefly just to be able to kill a panther. But they cant do shit vs inf and cant stand hendheld AT unlike Panther and are slower than Panther. So the cost efficency is in axis favour. 850/150 and Panther G comes with fat gun, armor, good view and MG42. CW pays the same for two paper tanks and one proper gun..... yeah.... CW is really OP.

And then saying: We survived 45 mins. Well i played very long games against axis which just spammed bunkers etc. They never had a chance to win but cracking all that defense was just time consuming.

[Krieger Blitzer]

Dude, dont be so humble! Comon, we all know u are one of the best pros here! I must say that after I won this game I felt a great proud from winning with such a good player!

I am not being any humble so far.. as I am just telling the truth... A player with only 100 total CW games played, can't be called an elite anyhow!
But whatever; thx for the confidence

[Warhawks97]

Dude, dont be so humble! Comon, we all know u are one of the best pros here! I must say that after I won this game I felt a great proud from winning with such a good player!

I am not being any humble so far.. as I am just telling the truth... A player with only 100 total CW games played, can't be called an elite anyhow!
But whatever; thx for the confidence

yeah, sure you admit. But how it comes then that you talk about "you need long shot earlier" because of fireflies when you have no real experience with brits. You spend at least the same ammount for firefly + command car as axis pay for panther G just that Panther is faster, better armored etc. So a long shot for Panthers and tigers on low vets would mean instant GG for brits (armor). So brits pay the cost of a panther just for a paper tank and one good anti tank gun. So its ok when firefly+ command tank can stop Panther G effectively.

So pls stop crying for axis because of CW units (and even lots of US units) when you say by your own that you r a noob with brits. And with US you actually also are, just they have an SP which greatly reduces the ammout of units that need to be controled and which has firepower of like 5 76 shermans.



Oh and lehr, Tiger also left games quite often. Reason: noob mates (although it sometimes didnt look that bad), map reasons etc. So that "scared" argument could be used on tiger as well.

[Butterkeks]

Well....

Watched it and I'm pretty sure that Jim was trolling you, Tiger, regarding calling you a "Elite team".

Basically everything I've seen were stupid commando blobs doomed to fail, planestrikes on every shit without using brain, and absolutely childish behaviour from Panzer.

Tiger and Panzer failed in my opinion already at the beginning when they decided not to rush the fuel points. Jim and Erich hat around 60 fuel income later. Tiger and Panzer could also have decided to rush one point together, so axis would have at least one point less.
Later then, Panzer tried to rely on tanks like always. Good vs the Panthers, but without the anti inf suppport from Tiger doomed to fail.
My favorite part of the game was when three OMG OP SAS SQUADs got completely shredded by erich (around min 40) + Illas double Puma rush at the end xDD.
Also JIm and Erich were always attacking, keeping the enemy busy, letting him no chance to counter attack. This was a great performance in my eyes.
Tiger and Panzer... Just lol. Nearly no teamplay, wasting commandos and planes to kill specific units but not with also attacking so a break through could have been achieved. Simply brainless ress wasting.

So yeah, Tiger, I'm pretty sure Illa was trolling

[Krieger Blitzer]

But u know what Keks.. if I am not an elite with Brits, then u r not an elite with any other faction as well atm ^^
Simply because of that u have actually the least total played games of all sides since CoH converted to Steam almost 3 years ago now... So that's why I guess u shouldn't consider urself an elite in anything too

Yet btw; I believe I have scored somewhat a success as Brits though of my very low experience against such other old dedicated well known players on the other hand like Crimax and Design for example! So I still think playing as CW is getting even easier specifically after 493.

And hey, when illa was still new to Bk before at the beginning.. she or he used to play with me as Axis a lot of times... When I later anyways lost 2 1v1s in a row as WH against her\him as RE at 486 even BEFORE the Churchills get any noticeable buff!!!

However that I then developed my WH tactics into a much aggressive one as I took my revenge in another 1v1 as Blitz doc few days after it

What I want to say is clearly that my last 1v1 game with him or her of which we had.. must have also influenced his or her tactics against the Brits; as that the CW weak points were so obvious ^^

[Butterkeks]

But u know what Keks.. if I am not an elite with Brits, then u r not an elite with any other faction as well atm ^^
Simply because of that u have actually the least total played games of all sides since CoH converted to Steam almost 3 years ago now... So that's why I guess u shouldn't consider urself an elite in anything too

And you are still not able to understand anything...

You know nothing, Jon Snow.

How about a short statement, Jim?^^

[Warhawks97]

The Panther part was trolling, he told me during the time i made this commentary post. he wanted to show how early panther G´s can come and how aggressive they can be used against brits once 17 pdr is gone and even what kind of wastfull style can be played with them as they can get all two mins a new one and thats a rather low MP map. But same with sudden massive arty use.

They wanted to show how axis can do well at any stage. In early they can go well with vehicle inf combo (still he told me that i was right about my tipps for the early game), then some tanks (The Panthers came pretty early) which prevent at least any attack from enemie side and finally able to win by heavy arty use when allied decide to camp. And that all in each WH doc.


Anyway. Good that CW got some buff. Otherwise the Boys would have never killed a single schwimmwagen.

[Krieger Blitzer]

Churchills and Pershings could come even so much earlier on this map! Which is represented and obvious very well through that game I had against Crimax and Design... As there were absolutely no counters available on their side by that time.

[Warhawks97]

Churchills and Pershings could come even so much earlier on this map! Which is represented and obvious very well through that game I had against Crimax and Design... As there were absolutely no counters available on their side by that time.

because they never tiered up for a long long time. Didnt you see that? Crimanx never goes for Tank depot or supply yard as US when playing inf doc. As luft never stuff like TH command etc for Hetzers and Panthers.

So when they spend all res into units but never fully tier up...

[Erich]

i dont consider this game as two elite teams as i said the chances to show teamplay,strategic and skills ended with the basebomb troll(by PanzerLehr ofc ^^) and then everyone rushed for arty or some units which could destroy the enemy cowardly.





And look to when airstrike begins and how tiger was saying how RAF is op and at end when they were losing and tiger was saying how they were noob as brits