Hetzer and other Axis TDs

[Consti255]

After the rework of the axis TDs, that they dont have more armor nor evasion, they are way worse than any allied counterpart.
IDK if it was just bad luck last game ive played, but i builded 3 Hetzer, all getting 1v1 by normal M4 shermans on max range.
So basicly you are a turretless, slow and without any benefit TD over the allied M10s,Achillies,Jackson and Hellcat. Doies the Axis TDs still have more range while camoed ? Yes right?
While beeing way more expensive as their counter parts.
I think they should be looked at. Especially the Hetzer, since it is a cheap mass produced tank with a 75mm gun which even requires CP.

A cost reduction especially for MP would be nice. Fuel should stay as is.
Maybe even a ability change and the remove of the max range would be sensefull.
Maybe even a CP unlock for cheaper Hetzers ?

[Warhawks97]

Well, the axis TD´s went through some reworks but at the end their armor remained the same. I will take a look at it later. The 76 sherman should have a 54% chance to pen hetzer at max range when my memories serve me right. Idk how the normal one could pen you.

Their HP got revised but not for Hetzer. The IV/48 went from 650 HP to 550 HP (again, will look at it soon) and cost dropped. The Hetzer was supposed to go from 600 to 500 along with a cost decrease to not more than 400 HP. However, Hetzer remained at 600 HP for whatever reason and its cost also stayed the same.

Essentially, Hetzer is quite the same as it was many years ago in terms of armor against enemie gun fire, HP and cost.

What was changed is the fact that all of them got more vulnerable to infantry anti tank weapons.


So i would argue that this was extremely bad luck or maybe another tank or AT gun shot at it at the same time.

[Consti255]

I sadly dont have the replay.
Was the road on cherbourg game, where i crashed.

[Viper]

bump
hetzer and japgdpanzers die as easy as armoured cars to 76 cannons

[MEFISTO]

In my opinion yes, they feel wey weaker than before, but keep in mind before shermans and 76mm cannon had no chance vs this units. What I would suggest is, keep hetzels and japgdpanzers armor the same, but give them a 1 shoot penetration buff ONLY when thy are on camouflage, any ways allies should avoid the dead brain push with a 76mm tank knowing there is hetzer or japgdpanzers on camouflage ahead.

[Krieger Blitzer]

Yup, the HP reduction was quite devastating.. they always get 1-shotted by 76 Shermans, yet they often fail to penetrate the Shermans and if they do, they would need 2 to 3 hits to kill them.

Also, seems like there is a glitch with the penetration modifiers.. more often than not the 76 Sherman would successfully penetrate and 1-shot the Hetzer or JPz L48 tanks... They are hardly worth anything, ironically enough they perform the same as Marder3 & Pak40 Puma.
Except that they are also slower.

[MarKr]

i builded 3 Hetzer, all getting 1v1 by normal M4 shermans on max range.

The penetration chances of 75mm Sherman vs Hetzer are (rounded up) 43/36/28/21%. Each hit deals 250-450 damage and Hetzer has 600HP.
So, to get one-shot 3 times in a row, you would need 5% out of 5% out of 5% which is 0.0125% chance.

If we go the other way, Hetzer has (without camo) 130/97/86/77% chance to penetrate 75mm Sherman, upon penetration deals 400-600 damage and the Sherman has 636HP.
Hetzer is a clear winner here.

So basicly you are a turretless, slow and without any benefit TD over the allied M10s,Achillies,Jackson and Hellcat. Doies the Axis TDs still have more range while camoed ? Yes right?
While beeing way more expensive as their counter parts.
I think they should be looked at. Especially the Hetzer, since it is a cheap mass produced tank with a 75mm gun which even requires CP.

The benefit is their "dodge" and armor.
[Boring stuff]:
When a 76mm Sherman shoots at a Hetzer:
100/84/67/54% penetration chance
Pen.hit deals 400-600 Damage (Hetzer has 600HP)

When a 76mm Sherman shoots at JPIV L48:
101/89/70/57% pen.chance
Pen.hit deals 400-600 damage JPIV (it has 550HP)

When a JPIV/Hetzer/PIV/any 75mm L48 gun shoots at a 76mm Sherman:
110/83/73/66% pen.chance
400-600dmg Sherman has 700HP
When in camo:
138/103/92/83% pen.chance (+ still possible to activate AP)
600-750 damage
[/Boring stuff]

When any 75mm L48 gun shoots at M10/M18, they have guaranteed penetration and still deal 400-600 damage while M10 has 550HP and M18 500. So in absolute majority of cases, they'll get one-shot or remain alive with 1HP and some critical (immobilized, gun destroyed etc.)

Hetzers/JPIVs are also 15% harder to hit by 76mm guns. So when a Sherman (or any unit with that gun) shoots at Hetzer or JPIV, it first needs to:
1) Roll a hit
2) Roll a penetration
3) Roll anything but super-low damage
When an Axis tank/TD shoots at TDs of allies, they need to:
1) Roll a hit

So as I said - their advantage is the "dodge" and armor. We felt that being able to rely on 3 layers of defense (dodge, armor, HP) would lead to the complaints "It's hard to hit them, when you finally hit them, the shot bounces and when it by some miracle doesn't bounce, the TD still survives the hit!" - which is exactly what we used to hear quite a lot before the TD changes.

Comparing the Hetzer or JPIV to M10/M18 is quite misleading exactly because of their style of usage. Better comparison would be M10/M18 to Marder or 75mm HT/Puma. They all have comparatively crap armor when facing medium tanks (usually need just to "Roll a hit" to destroy them), but also comparatively strong guns (US 76mm is very similar to 75mm L48). Here the Axis counterparts cost more or less the same but are CP-free.

I don't think any changes are necessary. The system should work fine. If some units "always get one-shot" it might be some forgotten modifier somewhere and should be fixed but if THAT is the case, we shouldn't make general changes based on unintended performance of one unit. Even in such a case I would like to see some replays as this might very easily be another case of that "Kingtiger vs 76mm gun" loading screen tip.

[Krieger Blitzer]

I don't think any changes are necessary.

Well, agreed.

I also checked back the change-logs of both v5.2.2 (when their armor was nerfed) and then revoked back again on v5.2.7 and if all the values listed are properly applied in the game.. then definitely no changes are needed.

it's either bad luck or worst case scenario.. some forgotten modifiers somewhere as you mentioned, i'm also gonna test it in-game soon.
For now though; i would probably just advice to check if both JPz (L48 & L70) have the same values applied to them in both factions.
Because "i assume" that the Def doc JagdPanzers in particular feel a lot weaker for some reason.. but it's nothing more than assumption.

[Viper]

i builded 3 Hetzer, all getting 1v1 by normal M4 shermans on max range.

The penetration chances of 75mm Sherman vs Hetzer are (rounded up) 43/36/28/21%. Each hit deals 250-450 damage and Hetzer has 600HP.
So, to get one-shot 3 times in a row, you would need 5% out of 5% out of 5% which is 0.0125% chance.

If we go the other way, Hetzer has (without camo) 130/97/86/77% chance to penetrate 75mm Sherman, upon penetration deals 400-600 damage and the Sherman has 636HP.
Hetzer is a clear winner here.

So basicly you are a turretless, slow and without any benefit TD over the allied M10s,Achillies,Jackson and Hellcat. Doies the Axis TDs still have more range while camoed ? Yes right?
While beeing way more expensive as their counter parts.
I think they should be looked at. Especially the Hetzer, since it is a cheap mass produced tank with a 75mm gun which even requires CP.

The benefit is their "dodge" and armor.
[Boring stuff]:
When a 76mm Sherman shoots at a Hetzer:
100/84/67/54% penetration chance
Pen.hit deals 400-600 Damage (Hetzer has 600HP)

When a 76mm Sherman shoots at JPIV L48:
101/89/70/57% pen.chance
Pen.hit deals 400-600 damage JPIV (it has 550HP)

When a JPIV/Hetzer/PIV/any 75mm L48 gun shoots at a 76mm Sherman:
110/83/73/66% pen.chance
400-600dmg Sherman has 700HP
When in camo:
138/103/92/83% pen.chance (+ still possible to activate AP)
600-750 damage
[/Boring stuff]

When any 75mm L48 gun shoots at M10/M18, they have guaranteed penetration and still deal 400-600 damage while M10 has 550HP and M18 500. So in absolute majority of cases, they'll get one-shot or remain alive with 1HP and some critical (immobilized, gun destroyed etc.)

Hetzers/JPIVs are also 15% harder to hit by 76mm guns. So when a Sherman (or any unit with that gun) shoots at Hetzer or JPIV, it first needs to:
1) Roll a hit
2) Roll a penetration
3) Roll anything but super-low damage
When an Axis tank/TD shoots at TDs of allies, they need to:
1) Roll a hit

So as I said - their advantage is the "dodge" and armor. We felt that being able to rely on 3 layers of defense (dodge, armor, HP) would lead to the complaints "It's hard to hit them, when you finally hit them, the shot bounces and when it by some miracle doesn't bounce, the TD still survives the hit!" - which is exactly what we used to hear quite a lot before the TD changes.

Comparing the Hetzer or JPIV to M10/M18 is quite misleading exactly because of their style of usage. Better comparison would be M10/M18 to Marder or 75mm HT/Puma. They all have comparatively crap armor when facing medium tanks (usually need just to "Roll a hit" to destroy them), but also comparatively strong guns (US 76mm is very similar to 75mm L48). Here the Axis counterparts cost more or less the same but are CP-free.

I don't think any changes are necessary. The system should work fine. If some units "always get one-shot" it might be some forgotten modifier somewhere and should be fixed but if THAT is the case, we shouldn't make general changes based on unintended performance of one unit. Even in such a case I would like to see some replays as this might very easily be another case of that "Kingtiger vs 76mm gun" loading screen tip.

bump

back to this topic......i played more and the 76 seem to be overperforming vs the jagdpanzer in game

[MarKr]

bump

back to this topic......i played more and the 76 seem to be overperforming vs the jagdpanzer in game

You quoted the stats I gave here. Can you say what "overperforming" means in this sense and can you provide any replay we could check for unusual performance?

[Krieger Blitzer]

bump

back to this topic......i played more and the 76 seem to be overperforming vs the jagdpanzer in game

You quoted the stats I gave here. Can you say what "overperforming" means in this sense and can you provide any replay we could check for unusual performance?

Tested this thoroughly with Tara, we tested every jagdpanzer (including Hetzer) vs 76 Shermans & 76 AT guns.


I can confirm all values are as intended.

[Red]

Do I understand correctly, that the reward unit tooltip: "The Jagdpanzer IV/48 is armed with the same gun as the "Hetzer", but is better armored. On the other hand, it is also more expensive." Is not reflecting the currently implemented stats?

[Warhawks97]

Do I understand correctly, that the reward unit tooltip: "The Jagdpanzer IV/48 is armed with the same gun as the "Hetzer", but is better armored. On the other hand, it is also more expensive." Is not reflecting the currently implemented stats?

Hetzer has the better armor, has more HP and cost 10 fuel less.

Usually the Jagdpanzer IV had more HP. Then HP of Jagdpanzers got dropped to be more in line with TD HP pool since some of them had more than the regular panzer IV´s.

Hetzer in general was always supposed to be cheaper but having less HP (however good armor). But for some reason the Hetzer stayed in terms of HP and MP cost. Jagdpanzer IV HP went down from 636 and 650 (PE version) to 550. But Hetzer stayed at 600 instead of going down to 500 along with a price reduction so that it would remain a cheaper but less survivable alternative to the Jagdpanzer IV.

Right now the Hetzer is just better.