AT Inf Toggle

[Walderschmidt]

Is it possible for you guys to make an AT inf toggle?

Toggle AT - Shreks/Zooks out
Toggle Inf - Regular Rifles or standard load out.

Could make AT inf a little more survivable againt infantry (maybe one guy gets an smg). If this works, I'd like to maybe see a toggle on all inf that equip shreks and bazookas.

Wald

[crazzy501]

like this

[MarKr]

I can clearly remember people complaining about the "bazooka shot" ability of CQB squad being called "bullshit" because "they just pull bazookanoutnof their ass, take a shot and put it back in" and now you want a similar ability for all AT squads?

EDIT: also, the intended counter of AT infantry is "normal" infantry. Giving them an option to switch to small arms would make them less susseptible to their intended counter.

[Walderschmidt]

Yes, I do.

I am sure people complain about that but I don’t.

To be clear, I don’t want a “shoot zook” button. But a weapon toggle between zook and rifle or whatever is normal for said infantry squad.

Wald

[Diablo]

If this grows any traction, consider balancing it with a cooldown and an icon. A bit like the HE switch for tanks, so if your opponent did a bad switch or got outsmarted you can catch the AT squad with its pants down

[kwok]

[joke] but pulling things out of american asses is historically accurate. for example, see the stock brokers who caused the 1929 financial crash that lead to the great depression. or all the corsix shadow nerfs i pull out of my own ass [/joke]

speaking personally on MarKr's annecdote/memory... i'm inclined to say that AT inf toggle SHOULDN'T be a thing for a competitive mod. making units more well rounded in general without giving some sort of direct trade off puts the design of other units in question. i just had this discussion on discord actually around "why stuh42 and 105mm shermans aren't used". dedicated units could/should be good at their dedicated role. but when other units start being well rounded they quickly over shadow their dedicated counter parts. why make a stuh42 to eliminate emplacements when a stug with HE rounds can eliminate emplacements? AND kill tanks?
i'm not saying AT inf are going to completely overshadow riflemen or something like that... but conceptually (like markr said) AT inf SHOULD be countered by normal inf or other anti-inf counter parts. making them any less so means that it's less rewarding to make a good positioning play.. For example, say you executed a good flank against AT inf to pave the way for your tanks. it's totally in the realm of possibility that this change could cause a difference between having a full squad survive the flanking maneuver of your good play versus taking some losses. Those few losses could compound into an entire loss if you use that squad to fight another inf squad later in the same engagement. 1 extra rifle, whether it be a garand or k98, is currently pretty deadly ever since both those BASE guns have been buffed. will this happen every time? probably not. will this happen SOME time? yes definitely and that's something RNG will have to speak for. is it worth introducing more RNG that could (and i think would) take away from the tactical layer? i personally vote no.

I know you don't want a "shoot zook" button but it's effectively the same in outcome.

[Walderschmidt]

Sounds like an idea I liked that would lead to unintentional “damage”. So I retract my request.

Wald

[CGarr]

[joke] but pulling things out of american asses is historically accurate. for example, see the stock brokers who caused the 1929 financial crash that lead to the great depression. or all the corsix shadow nerfs i pull out of my own ass [/joke]

speaking personally on MarKr's annecdote/memory... i'm inclined to say that AT inf toggle SHOULDN'T be a thing for a competitive mod. making units more well rounded in general without giving some sort of direct trade off puts the design of other units in question. i just had this discussion on discord actually around "why stuh42 and 105mm shermans aren't used". dedicated units could/should be good at their dedicated role. but when other units start being well rounded they quickly over shadow their dedicated counter parts. why make a stuh42 to eliminate emplacements when a stug with HE rounds can eliminate emplacements? AND kill tanks?
i'm not saying AT inf are going to completely overshadow riflemen or something like that... but conceptually (like markr said) AT inf SHOULD be countered by normal inf or other anti-inf counter parts. making them any less so means that it's less rewarding to make a good positioning play.. For example, say you executed a good flank against AT inf to pave the way for your tanks. it's totally in the realm of possibility that this change could cause a difference between having a full squad survive the flanking maneuver of your good play versus taking some losses. Those few losses could compound into an entire loss if you use that squad to fight another inf squad later in the same engagement. 1 extra rifle, whether it be a garand or k98, is currently pretty deadly ever since both those BASE guns have been buffed. will this happen every time? probably not. will this happen SOME time? yes definitely and that's something RNG will have to speak for. is it worth introducing more RNG that could (and i think would) take away from the tactical layer? i personally vote no.

I know you don't want a "shoot zook" button but it's effectively the same in outcome.

To be fair with this specific request, AT squads have a unit cap already and inf units aren't really "mutually exclusive" with eachother in terms of cost the way tanks can be. It's generally a lot easier to build 2-3 inf squads than 2-3 tanks, so while you might be forced to pick one tank over another (choosing both might put you significantly behind in teching), you will often be able to just build both units when it comes to inf. Therefore, while a generalist tank can easily render a specialist of similar strength obsolete, generalist inf don't really have that same drawback because you can usually afford to have both.

Additionally, even if the unit cap on AT inf magically disappeared, they wouldn't just replace normal inf. Normal inf cost less, and would still be far more potent against other inf due to significant amount of extra firepower that the extra men brig to the squad. Anyways, we already have a ton of generalists running around when you consider the fact that 9/12 doctrines in the game have a commonly used standard inf squad that can be equipped with AT. If the approach the dev team is one where good positioning and flanking should be rewarded, then why do we have HE on TD's and SMG's on MG teams? Both of those combos are far more potent than a 4 man squad being able to swap between having 4 single shot rifles or 2 and 2 bazookas.

Just to be clear, while I like this idea, the mod is obviously playable without it's implementation, so I'm not defending it because I think the game is broken without it. I'm just providing support for why it wouldn't be a bad idea to implement. At worst, it'd probably get acknowledged for a week or 2 with maybe 1 or 2 people complaining that it is OP until they realize a 4 man basic inf squad still wont have nearly as much of an impact on flanking as the 2 SMG's on an MG team just melting anything that comes close. At best, every doc has another unit that can actually defend whatever it caps from being retaken by enemy inf. I can see some interesting synergies involving cheap builder units and AT inf coming up where they cap something deep in enemy territory early/mid game, and then throw a couple trenches down to repel counterattacks.

The intended counter of AT infantry is "normal" infantry. Giving them an option to switch to small arms would make them less susceptible to their intended counter.

Do these squads really need a hard counter? They're already generally pretty vulnerable to small arms by virtue of having similar durability to "standard inf", as well as only having 4 men. With this change, they'd essentially just become early generalists, and their cost already reflects them being more than just standard specialized inf. It'd be similar to the stuart tank, you pay a premium cost (at least relative to the other available options), and you get a generalist who is decent enough to deter vehicles but loses to AT specialists, and who mainly specializes in slaughtering inf. The unit types would obviously be flipped for the AT squad, but aside from that, the AT squad is exactly the same. I don't see people losing their minds over the stuart, so I think it's safe to say that generalists aren't inherently OP. TD's with HE and MG squads having free SMG's to give them an advantage at all ranges are just cases where these units are too good at their secondary role.

Anyways, it'd give an excuse to remove the stupid anti-inf grenade from the PE AT squads. Being able to chuck a cheap insta-wipe stick with a short cooldown is way more potent than 2 extra rifles ever could be, as even with extremely good RNG the squad would only ever be able to kill 4 models at once (assuming they can even one-hit), whereas the grenade can wipe pretty regularly and even a "bad" damage roll on a precise throw will generally kill most of the target squad. I don't see other people losing their minds about that breaking the game, and I only complain about it because of the ridiculous Axis nade range and PE being the only ones that can do it.