The Wirbelwind Flak Panzer

[Walderschmidt]

It sounds like part of the issue is that 20mm are not standardized in the game which then shock’s player expectations of performance in different units.

Wald

[PanzarFather]

Ok! I suggest we make the Wirbel like this then:

Wirbel:
Acc at long range = 70%
Burst per Second = 32
Avg damage = 5
Target Table Modifiers = 4

[Warhawks97]

Okay, if the wirbel feels like it's under performing then we should get some type of baseline so we know how much is the right amount. Because if we just add some random number without knowing the exact math behind it all, it can get weird fast.

I went looking for a baseline and figured the crusader is the closest unit comparable. Quick calculations show the following:

Wirbel:
Acc at long range = 70%
Burst per Second = 32
Avg damage = 3.5
Target Table Modifiers = 2.5
All this means an average of 196 damage per second

Crusader:
Acc at long range = 60%
Burst per second = 22
Avg damage = 4
Target table modifiers = 2
All this means an average of 105.6 damage per second.

The difference here is a full 1.5 unit kills per burst. So it might take a wirbelwind an average of 1.8seconds to squad wipe, it takes the crusader 3.4 seconds.

How would you tweak these numbers and costs?

EDIT:
I also checked the quad halftrack. Here's the stats:

Acc at long range = 35%
Burst per second = 24
Avg dmg = 17.5
Target Table Modifiers = 1.5
All this means an average of 220.5 damage per second. This translates to a full squad wipe at 1.6seconds.

I didn't check other AA guns because they function differently in that they have drastically different ROF stats and don't function on the "multiple guns stacked on top of each other" philosophy.

when experiemented myself with BK i always used the quad cal 50 as reference. Good damage, lower accuracy and so on.


I also set the magazin sizes accordingly. 100 round boxes for M16, 20 round clips for the wirblewind and single 20 mm canons.

The M16 took longer for the reload but had to reload less often so it was perfectly for suppressing enemies over a duration.

The quad 20 mm made two bursts completed the mag in two bursts but the reload was relatively quick. Its damage pretty good with damage being better than quad cal 50 in average.


But its still tricky because crusader and wirbel have HE rounds so each round also deals damage not just to one model of an infantry unit.
I often ended up that the wirbelwind made a millsecond burst, killed a model, stopped, killed next model, stopped.... like a sniper rifle and behaved quite unrealistic because we want a unit that keeps fireing at the target infantry unit.


I think i didnt manage to be fully satisifed at the end. But the best way i could go was decent damage for lower accuracy.

It requires a lot of testing for sure.


I also adjusted the crusader in a similiar way.... well, i adjusted all 20 mm because the single 20 mm are sniping their targets and act almost like a bofors gun against vehicles.

[PanzarFather]

Quick calculations show the following:

Wirbel:
Acc at long range = 70%
Burst per Second = 32
Avg damage = 3.5
Target Table Modifiers = 2.5

Ok, but try this instead and most of us will problebly be happy.

Wirbel:
Acc at long range = 70%
Burst per Second = 32
Avg damage = 5
Target Table Modifiers = 4

[kwok]

Quick calculations show the following:

Wirbel:
Acc at long range = 70%
Burst per Second = 32
Avg damage = 3.5
Target Table Modifiers = 2.5

Ok, but try this instead and most of us will problebly be happy.

Wirbel:
Acc at long range = 70%
Burst per Second = 32
Avg damage = 5
Target Table Modifiers = 4

This basically doubles the output for the wirbel. Given how the wirbel is more than 80% better than crusader and only 12% worse than the quad, should we increase the crusader's damage output by 150% and increase the quad's about 80% to keep their relative performance somewhat standard? They are essentially all very similar weapons.... the expectations of each should be matching shouldn't they?

[Krieger Blitzer]

Correct me if i'm wrong.. but I think the problem with Wirbelwind is how often it reloads?
It fires few rounds.. then just sits there and reloads the entire time, giving you the feeling that it almost doesn't fire at all.. or maybe the aim time is too big? Not sure.

At least that's what i observed last time i used it...

[CGarr]

Correct me if i'm wrong.. but I think the problem with Wirbelwind is how often it reloads?
It fires few rounds.. then just sits there and reloads the entire time, giving you the feeling that it almost doesn't fire at all.. or maybe the aim time is too big? Not sure.

At least that's what i observed last time i used it...

I think you're right, the damage seems fine but it feels like it spends a lot more time reloading than shooting.

[MarKr]

96 shots per burst doesn't sound like "it fires a few rounds".

[Krieger Blitzer]

96 shots per burst doesn't sound like "it fires a few rounds".

I'm unable to check right now.. so i might be wrong, but if you compare - in depth - the rounds fired with the reload times, then the Crusader would be actually superior.. unless i'm wrong, yet.

That's when there is no point in having excessive high damage or whatever.. as long as you shoot very less.
I mean, i would love to see Wirbelwind being at the same level as Crusader.

Also, does this thing actually fire on the move or must be stationary? Can't remember.

[mofetagalactica]

DUDE THE WIRBEL IS FINE AS IT IS, SOME INFANTRY JUST HAVE RESISTANCE TO BEING SUPRESSED PLUS THEY CAN USE SPECIAL SPRINT HABILITY TO BE IMMUNE TO IT FOR SOME TIME, RANGERS, 82airb, COMMANDOS, all have that kind of stuff.

Theyre also super cheap to make, easy and pretty fast to adquire since PE tech got shortened into just 4 buildings lol.

Basic infantry such as bazooka team and riflemens gets instantly supressed in a huge zone with the first burst and can't use any special sprint hability to escape from it (unless smoke drop ofc).

[kwok]

96 shots per burst doesn't sound like "it fires a few rounds".

I'm unable to check right now.. so i might be wrong, but if you compare - in depth - the rounds fired with the reload times, then the Crusader would be actually superior.. unless i'm wrong, yet.

That's when there is no point in having excessive high damage or whatever.. as long as you shoot very less.
I mean, i would love to see Wirbelwind being at the same level as Crusader.

Also, does this thing actually fire on the move or must be stationary? Can't remember.

crusader and wirbel seem to have the same burst duration and reload duration:
3 second burst
6 second reload

[Krieger Blitzer]

Hmm, that's weird... Then why the Wirbelwind seems to perform much worse in game? Something seems off.

[PanzarFather]

Hmm, that's weird... Then why the Wirbelwind seems to perform much worse in game? Something seems off.

Agreed.

Maybe they have done some shadownerfing?

[CGarr]

Might have something to do with target tables if there's a big discrepency, personally I feel that they both suck. I've seen groups of vsturms just run at the crusader, and groups of 101st do the same to the wirbel. Maybe cut the reload down on both or make their bursts longer? I've never seen a reason to build either of these tanks (not for lack of trying to make them work, I like listening them shoot). IMO a P4 is always better by virtue of similar performance against inf while also having utility against tanks. For CW you might as well go double MG bren carrier or get a churchill.

[Warhawks97]

Just had my first game with luft in over a year and the second PE game in the past months.

I struggle with PE in the early game and had to face AB player. The rest of the team on both sides was average but didnt play that bad.


Idk what that talk about the wirbel is all about.


Just ONE burst of that thing against an 82nd behind sandbags killed all but one men of that squad. It never took longer than one burst to whipe any AB squad. No joke. I just kept producing these units and totally whiped any infantry that tried to get close.

The game itself was not really interesting but if needed i can upload it.



The only thing i struggled with with Luft was the combo of enemie units. That combo of 101st, HT´s and 76 shermans to which i had no idea how to handle them except by playing defensively with marder and some inf. I could have gone panther but lacked the res.


But in any way the Wirbel is "the counter" when HE is active to enemie infantry. They had to retreat outright.

[MenciusMoldbug]

I personally don't have a problem with wirbelwinds as they are because of two things:

1. They are cheap

2. You can build flak 88s from the very start of the game (because they are now 0 cp and only need luftwaffe pioneers to build)

So if you time it right, by the 10 minute mark in a game you can have a flak 88 and a wirbelwind guarding a chokepoint, add a vampire halftrack to stop any invisible spotter units or snipers from doing any murking about and you got a solid defense.

+ The wirbelwind is one of the few units that can suppress infantry in smoke cover with its HE burst. Otherwise, it just instantly pins a squad its shooting at within seconds.

[Warhawks97]

2. You can build flak 88s from the very start of the game (because they are now 0 cp and only need luftwaffe pioneers to build)

Really?

[MenciusMoldbug]

2. You can build flak 88s from the very start of the game (because they are now 0 cp and only need luftwaffe pioneers to build)

Really?

Yes, I'm not joking, they are available from the start of the game. You can drop in luftwaffe pioneers and check the non-emplacement build tab to see that both the non-emplacement flakvierling quad 20mm and the non-emplacement flak 88 are available to build without needing to put CP's into unlocking the flak 88.

[mofetagalactica]

Yeah, you can build naked flak 88 right from the start after unlocking luft pios.

Also i don't know what is this talk about the wirdelwind, it has decent supression even on smoke (with HE on), the HE is cheap to upgrade, the unit is cheaper than before and viable.

As mencius said, as luft you will struggle againts mixed army of inf + tanks + some light arty.

Why you guys keep trying to compare this unit with crusaders (even when crusaders are worst than wirdl's), trying to buff the crusader againts inf to the "same level" of wirlds? you don't really know what you're asking lol.

[Warhawks97]

82nd vet 2 behind green cover. One burst and 4 men down. After that i could have backed up.


An earlier situation: I drove into the Fog of war and didnt see the AT squad running towards me:

They ran towards me. One burst with AP rounds killed three of them outright. The last died on the retreat from my fallis that were nearby.