( BETA) New Panzer Support OMG

[MEFISTO]

Guys please, this Doctrine is too strong this new changes just move the balance way too much to one side, the Wespe 105mm SP Artillery does not have anything to do in this doctrine, (maybe we can change it for a 150mm Nebelwerfer Rocket Battery or keep the Hotchkiss Light Tank) also no place for those AA , just keep the Sd.Kfz. 250/9 Halftrack (20mm KwK) and add it like an AA mode; about heavy infantry, I think It was a good change this doctrine need Assault Grenadier Heavy Infantry to figth allies elit infantry.

[Diablo]

This reaction is exactly what some devs openly expected to come from the "community" driven changes and partial reverts in the new update.

What to say...

[Sparrow]

Agree with you MEFISTO, in all points my friend. We have tested this new BETA since last night, and when I say "we" I mean a few BETA testers: MEFISTO, Need Ammo (ogrodeasalto), Panzer Alcon, Shaka, Dema, Crow, Dick Winter, Egungun, Hacker and me...a few well known, others not too much...but we are still players of this community and we are not agree with those changes in Panzer Support.

In my opinion, its from the sublime to the ridiculous this doctrine. You only needed to adjust their infantry.

As I see it, once again, late game for axis. If you dont kill them in middle hour in a 3v3 or 4v4 you are done. Please, I request the devs to review the changes in this doctrine again, because if they leave it like this, better enable "Axis vs Axis" (its a joke). This doctrine will kill the team matches, because people will not play against that unbalance doctrine.

SE Arty + AA + Heavy Tanks = OP Panzer Support

And there are others requesting snipers for this doctrine...unbelievable

[ogrodeasalto]

YO, WAHAPEM.
who have the great idea for giving arty pieces to panzer support?
what next?, priest for armor company?. Is this europe at war mod?
lets take a look on europe at war brenches

[panzeralcon]

la verdad una mierda ! mira que soy fan de los axis del bk y siempre estoy a favor de las modificaciones pero esta ves la cagaron ..
pd: need...que fotuli clavaste en el perfil !

[Shanks]

It is ridiculous that the wespe is in TH, who are the ones who asked for that change? it's a calamity, the result: ultra-unbalanced play

[MenciusMoldbug]

Wespe is actually pretty tame compared to double hotchkisses with 240mm rockets. Are you sure you want to swap the Wespe for the hotchkiss? It might seem like a good idea, but the rockets for the hotchkiss are only 55 munitions to fire, and I think they are lower to maintain on ammo upkeep too.

So you will have a doctrine, that instead of just having a slow artillery bombardment firing on the map instead have rapid firing rocket tanks, doesn't seem it would change the equation that much.

Maybe just stick a nebelwerfer to them, make their artillery focused on being used from the arty p4/armored car, and call it a day. I think everyone back in the original TH re-work thread was arguing you don't really need to put arty in the doc to make it balanced to 1v1, because it's going to brute force its way to victory without it anyway. But then again, they lost the assault pioneers, so no more bundle nading emplacements to death, that could also be a problem if their arty options are too weak; Still, I think the arty p4 and mortar fire from the armored car is all they need.

If more artillery options are needed for the doctrine, then I think you can put them on the arty P4 as abilities (giving a choice between low and high saturation fire, with different munition costing options, something like that). That way, PS still has arty options available, they just can't fire it anywhere on the map and have to have their arty p4 in range to bombard a place.

[MarKr]

Well, the Wespe was requested and discussed several times:

I also like switch change from somebody for Wespe/Hotchkiss, coz in Arty doc Wespe do same job as Hummel what, I think, is a waste, but Hotchkiss there will be a good reward switch for 210mm stuka zu fuss.

Artillery:
- Wespe instead of Hotchkiss.

<> Hotchkiss to Wespe:

You unlock a Wespe with a build limit of 1 in this doctrine, the rocket hotchkiss goes to SE.

I would argue that Panzer Support would be more armored focused with an assortment of tanks/ tank hunters without as many fire support options such as Strumpanzer, Panzerwerfer, and stukas, just the 222 barrage and maybe 1 Wespe, so more pronounced strengths and weaknesses relative to Blitz.

What to do with Panzer Support doc for now:
- Swap Hotchkiss with Wespe.

There would be some more - just use the search function for "Wespe" and see in how many posts it was mentioned.

Actually an entire thread with a poll was made on this topic:
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=3767&p=34298&hilit=wespe#p34298
with a wast support for the "yes" option.

I don't see a single post by any of you against the Wespe in TS, why didn't you say anything earlier?

and btw:

la verdad una mierda ! mira que soy fan de los axis del bk y siempre estoy a favor de las modificaciones pero esta ves la cagaron ..
pd: need...que fotuli clavaste en el perfil !

Forum Posting Guidelines say specifically in point number 7:

7. All posts are to be made in English.[/b]

If your English isn't good, you can use some translator such as google translate or something similar to put you post into English. Even from a translator it will be understood better than a post in a completely different language.

[MenciusMoldbug]

I was wondering what AA was being talked about in this thread, so I checked and found out its the 20mm AA gun/emplacement. I also said it should be replaced with the defensive doctrine 20mm AA halftrack* as I don't want this doctrine to have static defenses available to it (and removing assault pioneers is in line with that thought as now they can't build HMG emplacements).

*Talking about this halftrack:

Sd.Kfz. 251/17 Halftrack (20mm FlaK)

By the way, I just want to thank MarKr for putting back the G43 suppressive fire on the Panzer Grenadiers in a new tab, big, big kudos for that.

[Sparrow]

Well, have anyone else played against a Panzer Support with those arty? Because we have been playing since last night and axis have won easly both games by overpowering allies with that doctrine. You can try theses options:
1-Put the Wespe like the 105 mm Sherman
2-Put the cost of bombing with hotchkiss more expensive, instead of only 55 ammo.
3-Limit the hotchkiss to only one unit instead of two, would be better and leaving the cost of 55 ammo.

Those are my suggestions

[MenciusMoldbug]

Yu can put the Wespe like the 105 mm Sherman, or put the hotchkissmore expensive in ammunition, instead of only 55 ammo.

That's a good idea, I didn't think of what would happen if you could put a direct fire artillery unit into PS; something like a Stupa or Stuh. But I don't know which one we would use then.

I don't want to nerf the hotchkiss and put it back in PS again just to give them artillery options. I don't think they need either the wespe or hotchkiss if they have assault grenadiers back now (don't need artillery units if you have good tanks + good inf that can decently punch through the enemy's defenses), but if they have to get something, then it can just be the 150mm nebelwerfer (because usually it doesn't do anything but suppress/pin squads and inflict light damage in its barrage area).

[MarKr]

I was wondering what AA was being talked about in this thread, so I checked and found out its the 20mm AA gun/emplacement.

The flak emplacements is sort of an oversight. They were originally added before the global AA changes and we wanted to give to the doctrine at least some AA defense and a mobile AA unit was deemed too powerful. Now the Opal Flak can be used in static mode for AA defense which beats the original reason for adding the static flaks.

The current beta version is not necesarily what will go live. Some tweaks can still be done but we're NOT doing any structural changes, which means moving units from doc to doc, changing unlocks etc. So if you have smaller changes for Wespe such as limit to 1 at a time, more expensive barrages, longer cooldowns and whatnot, it can be done. However, Wespe isn't going back to SE - if the beta shows that Wespe (even with some tweaks that I mentioned above) is still a real problem in the doctrine, we can address it in one of the updates after the beta goes live.

[MenciusMoldbug]

You know how you can have the Wespe come after the Arty P4 Tank(like connect the arty p4 to the wespe tree and have it come after unlocking the arty p4)? What if the Wespe in this doctrine, can only shoot at targets the Arty P4 Victor Targets?

So you need the arty P4 to be in range of a target you want your wespe to bomb, pop a victor-target-look-a-like, and the Wespe will fire over there. Otherwise, the Wespe has no artillery barrage of its own.

So basically, the PS Wespe can only fire through the PS P4 Arty tank.

Or, if people want to keep Wespe's arty barrage available to fire anywhere at will, it can cost a huge amount of munitions to fire it by itself (like 75-125 munitions for a barrage; and 50 munitions to fire at targets the P4 Arty tank marks). Just a thought on fixing that problem.

[Walderschmidt]

Lol

You asked for it.

Wald

[Constantino]

I think the doc is better now, but I don't think it is OP at all, especially when compared with docs like Blitz.

- Capping the Wespe at 1 is enough; it is fine as it is otherwise.

- Remove the flak emplacements, as they don't really fit the doc.

- As a side note, would suggest removing the Hotchkiss completely from the doc and making it SE exclusive, as it don't really fit the doc either.

[MEFISTO]

The question is: Why to play SE if I can have Waspe artillery, good heavy infantry and better Armors? OMG

[Shanks]

Well, the Wespe was requested and discussed several times:

I also like switch change from somebody for Wespe/Hotchkiss, coz in Arty doc Wespe do same job as Hummel what, I think, is a waste, but Hotchkiss there will be a good reward switch for 210mm stuka zu fuss.

Artillery:
- Wespe instead of Hotchkiss.

<> Hotchkiss to Wespe:

You unlock a Wespe with a build limit of 1 in this doctrine, the rocket hotchkiss goes to SE.

I would argue that Panzer Support would be more armored focused with an assortment of tanks/ tank hunters without as many fire support options such as Strumpanzer, Panzerwerfer, and stukas, just the 222 barrage and maybe 1 Wespe, so more pronounced strengths and weaknesses relative to Blitz.

What to do with Panzer Support doc for now:
- Swap Hotchkiss with Wespe.

There would be some more - just use the search function for "Wespe" and see in how many posts it was mentioned.

Actually an entire thread with a poll was made on this topic:
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=3767&p=34298&hilit=wespe#p34298
with a wast support for the "yes" option.

I don't see a single post by any of you against the Wespe in TS, why didn't you say anything earlier?

and btw:

la verdad una mierda ! mira que soy fan de los axis del bk y siempre estoy a favor de las modificaciones pero esta ves la cagaron ..
pd: need...que fotuli clavaste en el perfil !

Forum Posting Guidelines say specifically in point number 7:

7. All posts are to be made in English.[/b]

If your English isn't good, you can use some translator such as google translate or something similar to put you post into English. Even from a translator it will be understood better than a post in a completely different language.

the problem is that you allow ridiculous changes, how do you think of putting the wespe in th? Why did they eliminate the pioneers of th? The wespe has almost the same potential as the priest, it is like giving a priest to armor doc, but much more harmful (in TH), giving wespe to TH generates a doctrine 2 to 3 times superior to Def doc, why do I say this? .. you have mobile artillery, better than any of def doc, you have better tanks than in def doc doctrine, you have better infantry than in def doc doctrine, obviously this is not good at all for the allies, they should have left the hoctkiss where it was..... he tells me why I didn't publish anything before, it's a shame really, but now I'm doing it, unfortunately I didn't realize the change they wanted to implement
If you want artillery, use the right doctrines
There are people who are testing the beta, and they try it for hours, and others who only talk without trying anything

[crazzy501]

Thanx gods for giving back assault grenadiers to the Tank Doctrine!
But yes, I have to say that wespe + grenadiers + jagdpanthers is very powerful and haven't any downsides for now (as I can see...).
I think that to fix that need to remove wespe from this doc and add stuh42 coz it's better fit tank oriented doc. And as mentioned in some topic it's be good to see stug 4 here (maybe as a replace for jagdpanzer 4 (48)) with same costs as in blitzkrieg doc.
And plz replace JagdTiger with JagdPanther Elite. JT is OP in current state.
And remove Tigers and Panthers - it's not need here because of having very good jagd-tanks with support of assault grenadiers - that is what differentiate this doctrine from Blitzkrieg and a doctrine with KingTiger (I forget name of this doc )

[Shanks]

Now I propose to change jt for elephant

[MenciusMoldbug]

Played against and with this doc and I just don't see it being the most OP in the beta.

Actual most OP doc in the beta is as Constantino says blitzkrieg doc. Why? Well:

+ You can immediately get 6x MP40 pioneers for 20 munitions, you can rofl stomp brits into oblivion just by mass rushing them with all equipped MP40 pioneers
+ You get infinite repair bunkers (and they are dirt cheap) that repair your tanks back to full HP in 5-10 seconds.
+ The best ambush tank in the game is available to you (stug 4), along with its cheaper variant that has mark target (stug 3)
+ You get good infantry (stormtroopers), snipers, all support weapons (mortars, MG42 emplacements, etc.), mines, and cheap chaff if you can't afford the other stuff (volks)
+ You get the Light AT Squad that dominates light vehicles and light tanks (meaning you don't have to actually bother getting AT until a tank your grenade launcher rifle can't penetrate arrives)
+ Maultier at 0 CP, you don't even have to pay CP for your artillery options like all the other doctrines.
+ You get the best Ace tank in the game (crazy stats, it can tank 90mm shots with the vet tank commander and buffed HP and it shoots every 1-2 SECONDS at vet 4 with blitzkrieg assault and rapid rounds activated)
+ You get the cheapest panther in the game, at 680 MP (this is cheaper than the sherman jackson) and only costing lots of fuel (and 110 isn't even that much when your tank upkeep is super low already).
+ You get a stuka airstrike too, just in case the maultiers are not enough.
+ Stupa pretty much 2-3 shots emplacements with its long range ability and outranges AT emplacements, and you can get double stuhs instead if you wanna screw around.
+ you get FUEL SUPPLIES and MANPOWER BLITZ. You just have to control ammo and you can not give a flying @$*! about fuel or MP...
+ You have PZ3 in your kriegs barracks, you just need to tech sturm and you get the best tank HE tank in the game in 5 minutes...
+ Combat Support gives you PZ3 and Stormtroopers (upgraded already) now and you can get it along with an early pz3 5-10 minutes into the game...
+ PZ4 Command Tank can make your tanks turn into Neo with the defensive aura buff and make them all dodge any shots any unit takes at them
+ You get a stormtrooper halftrack, comes with a droppable stormtrooper officer squad that can mortar barrage anyplace he wants; and this halftrack acts as a retreat point and heals your stormtroopers.
+ Late game, your stormtroopers can evasive crawl wherever they want, so the urban assault variant or all stg44 equipped guys can instantly kill squads if you aren't scanning every possible location they might come from.
+ blitzkrieg assault is basically a flank speed + rapid fire for tanks + free sprint for infantry + free inspired assault (with no downsides for infantry) + heavy crush for mediums (meaning you can roll over all destructibles with a stug 3, turning it into a fast bulldozer)

The list goes on and on... When I read the words "this doctrine is OP because it has good inf + good tanks + good artillery." What immediately comes into my mind is blitzkrieg doc (and don't tell me maultier is 'bad arty' because I've only seen this thing die once in a bluemoon and every other time it gets +50 inf kills and is at vet 3-4). And blitz is WAY, WAY worse than PS, not even close to the levels of broken you can reach with it; you don't need a king tiger when you can get 3+ panther d2s (and use manpower blitz to immediately get a panther ace) which are basically better than 1 KT, just because you are spamming FUEL SUPPLY and know your panther only costs you 680 MP.

EDIT: I checked my replay again when I was playing PS, and while the jagdpanther has become cheaper, it still appears to have the same upkeep as before, which is super low for its class, that should be looked at.

[mofetagalactica]

Pretty much every upkeep should be checked and revised for WH and PE.

[Warhawks97]

The Wespe is in my opinion better because it cant protect the "kittens" so well as the hotchkiss comes which is some sort of "denial of enemie assault" machines.

That combo of heavy TD´s backed up by cheap hotckiss is simply more a problem than a expensive wespe that can bombard positions but not instantly deny enemie attacks.

That's a good idea, I didn't think of what would happen if you could put a direct fire artillery unit into PS; something like a Stupa or Stuh. But I don't know which one we would use then.

I don't want to nerf the hotchkiss and put it back in PS again just to give them artillery options. I don't think they need either the wespe or hotchkiss if they have assault grenadiers back now (don't need artillery units if you have good tanks + good inf that can decently punch through the enemy's defenses), but if they have to get something, then it can just be the 150mm nebelwerfer (because usually it doesn't do anything but suppress/pin squads and inflict light damage in its barrage area).

I also thought about having stugs and stuhs in this doctrine. These units would be ideal for supporting infantry which in some ways was apparently the goal of this doc. If i would make a doctrine where tanks and inf should work together, stugs and stuhs would be the first units for me to be implemented.


But instead we got a lame cheap OP Panzer IV F2 spam doctrine with superman 50 mm armor plates.



Having an doctrine with good armor, inf would play a vital role right before artillery because big tanks + artillery is camping and bombardment in its nature. But devs wanted the inf to be weak and tanks completly alone wont do that much.



Fighting with heavy tanks off-maps and stuhs and inf would ofc do well enough. The brute force would be the way to go.

Thanx gods for giving back assault grenadiers to the Tank Doctrine!
But yes, I have to say that wespe + grenadiers + jagdpanthers is very powerful and haven't any downsides for now (as I can see...).
I think that to fix that need to remove wespe from this doc and add stuh42 coz it's better fit tank oriented doc. And as mentioned in some topic it's be good to see stug 4 here (maybe as a replace for jagdpanzer 4 (48)) with same costs as in blitzkrieg doc.
And plz replace JagdTiger with JagdPanther Elite. JT is OP in current state.
And remove Tigers and Panthers - it's not need here because of having very good jagd-tanks with support of assault grenadiers - that is what differentiate this doctrine from Blitzkrieg and a doctrine with KingTiger (I forget name of this doc )

your ideas with casemate tanks and tds is basically what the old TH was like. In its design, it wasnt bad. It was very well done for what it was supposed to do.

The problem however:
Axis in general dont have issues beating enemie tanks. So having a doctrine that is specializsed in destroying tanks is some sort of not needed overkill, esspecially in team fights.
If allied armor would be a threat to others, we could have kept the old TH doc for the most part and only removed shit like zimmerit.
But thats not the case so we needed a new doctrine that is not just about spamming cheap powerfull TD´s.



The jagdpanzer IV/48 should stay, i would simply add the stug III somewhere to it. The stug IV is was too cheap for what it does. Its better than the IV/48 due to its better multirole capabilties but still 100 MP cheaper.

Played against and with this doc and I just don't see it being the most OP in the beta.

Actual most OP doc in the beta is as Constantino says blitzkrieg doc. Why? Well:

+ You can immediately get 6x MP40 pioneers for 20 munitions, you can rofl stomp brits into oblivion just by mass rushing them with all equipped MP40 pioneers
+ You get infinite repair bunkers (and they are dirt cheap) that repair your tanks back to full HP in 5-10 seconds.
+ The best ambush tank in the game is available to you (stug 4), along with its cheaper variant that has mark target (stug 3)
+ You get good infantry (stormtroopers), snipers, all support weapons (mortars, MG42 emplacements, etc.), mines, and cheap chaff if you can't afford the other stuff (volks)
+ You get the Light AT Squad that dominates light vehicles and light tanks (meaning you don't have to actually bother getting AT until a tank your grenade launcher rifle can't penetrate arrives)
+ Maultier at 0 CP, you don't even have to pay CP for your artillery options like all the other doctrines.
+ You get the best Ace tank in the game (crazy stats, it can tank 90mm shots with the vet tank commander and buffed HP and it shoots every 1-2 SECONDS at vet 4 with blitzkrieg assault and rapid rounds activated)
+ You get the cheapest panther in the game, at 680 MP (this is cheaper than the sherman jackson) and only costing lots of fuel (and 110 isn't even that much when your tank upkeep is super low already).
+ You get a stuka airstrike too, just in case the maultiers are not enough.
+ Stupa pretty much 2-3 shots emplacements with its long range ability and outranges AT emplacements, and you can get double stuhs instead if you wanna screw around.
+ you get FUEL SUPPLIES and MANPOWER BLITZ. You just have to control ammo and you can not give a flying @$*! about fuel or MP...
+ You have PZ3 in your kriegs barracks, you just need to tech sturm and you get the best tank HE tank in the game in 5 minutes...
+ Combat Support gives you PZ3 and Stormtroopers (upgraded already) now and you can get it along with an early pz3 5-10 minutes into the game...
+ PZ4 Command Tank can make your tanks turn into Neo with the defensive aura buff and make them all dodge any shots any unit takes at them
+ You get a stormtrooper halftrack, comes with a droppable stormtrooper officer squad that can mortar barrage anyplace he wants; and this halftrack acts as a retreat point and heals your stormtroopers.
+ Late game, your stormtroopers can evasive crawl wherever they want, so the urban assault variant or all stg44 equipped guys can instantly kill squads if you aren't scanning every possible location they might come from.
+ blitzkrieg assault is basically a flank speed + rapid fire for tanks + free sprint for infantry + free inspired assault (with no downsides for infantry) + heavy crush for mediums (meaning you can roll over all destructibles with a stug 3, turning it into a fast bulldozer)

The list goes on and on... When I read the words "this doctrine is OP because it has good inf + good tanks + good artillery." What immediately comes into my mind is blitzkrieg doc (and don't tell me maultier is 'bad arty' because I've only seen this thing die once in a bluemoon and every other time it gets +50 inf kills and is at vet 3-4). And blitz is WAY, WAY worse than PS, not even close to the levels of broken you can reach with it; you don't need a king tiger when you can get 3+ panther d2s (and use manpower blitz to immediately get a panther ace) which are basically better than 1 KT, just because you are spamming FUEL SUPPLY and know your panther only costs you 680 MP.

EDIT: I checked my replay again when I was playing PS, and while the jagdpanther has become cheaper, it still appears to have the same upkeep as before, which is super low for its class, that should be looked at.

True. All you need is Blitz.

Pios dont need the Mp40´s to be that cheap.
AT rifle is actually not so much needed in my opinion.
Pz III comes extremely early.
Panther D shouldnt be there or not for that cost. Its too spammy. Either remove it or make it more expensive. Like you can get one early but costs more or you tec first to get a slightly cheaper A.
But that D spam is brutal.
The Maultier dominates in mid game and is the most potent 0 CP arty.
Stug IV is probably the most cost effective TD in the entire game.

Pretty much every upkeep should be checked and revised for WH and PE.

yeah... especially fuel. It bothers me to see shermans eating all your fuel and also brits tanks with their like 5 fuel upkeep (firefly) while a Panther eats sometimes just 2 fuel. Thats mad.

The Jagdpanther costs less fuel upkeep than Firefly (far less) and sherman and less MP upkeep than a sherman.




Edit:

I make a list of observations and suggestions after the first quick test:

Observation:
1. AT squad has Panzerfaust 100 at default. Not sure if it has the 100 in all docs, but it should get it only after double AT effort as it was in old TH doc. The range is huge btw, just as huge as tanks HE range.
2. The icon above the Heavy Assault grens when near tanks and vehicles appears and disappears from time to time. Its confusing.
3.The Panzer IV F2 can call in an smoke barrage for less cost than the observation Tank IV. It should be the other way arround or for the F2 increased from 10 to 35-50.



Suggestion:
1. Reduce the ammount of infanty orientated unlocks to 3, max 4 in total. Remove mass production bc srsly, no one ever mass produced rifle inf (which still cost 300 MP) just to get shreded by greyhounds and shermans. Just remove this nonsense unlock.
- First would be vehicle/Tank buff when close to them.
- Second is vet training that also affects the heavy assault grens and that perhaps also unlocks assault ability for them (not a necessity though).
- Last one is AT effort that adds second schreck and Panzerfaust 100 to them.

2. Remove mark target. Its just not needed and if you get it, it just is an overkill bc it makes you hit the tanks even through smoke with the already accurate german tank guns. Its not needed.

3. Wespe should be unlocked after observation Panzer IV. So the bottom unlock line is all about vehicle/arty support.

4. Can we get different icons for the various buffs when near tanks or vehicle so that its more clear what kind of buff they actually got? That star doesnt look that great and doesnt fit so much to PE.

5. Panther G is supposed to cost more than a Tiger? It should be the other way arround. Or lets say, 880 MP and 130 fuel for a Panther G is weird. It should be more like 850 and 150 as it used to be.

6. The Panzer IV H for 50 fuel is an overkill, esspecially with the low german upkeep. "Panzer reserves" should in my opinion make the H a bit cheaper and the F2 should require this unlock but then comming right away with the low cost. The F2 would no longer be a 0 CP tank.
It should also be kicked out of BK doc (which with Panzer III, stugs and P IV H/J has already an impressive ammount of tanks available). In Luft and SE it does require CP unlock as well.

[Shanks]

Played against and with this doc and I just don't see it being the most OP in the beta.

Actual most OP doc in the beta is as Constantino says blitzkrieg doc. Why? Well:

+ You can immediately get 6x MP40 pioneers for 20 munitions, you can rofl stomp brits into oblivion just by mass rushing them with all equipped MP40 pioneers
+ You get infinite repair bunkers (and they are dirt cheap) that repair your tanks back to full HP in 5-10 seconds.
+ The best ambush tank in the game is available to you (stug 4), along with its cheaper variant that has mark target (stug 3)
+ You get good infantry (stormtroopers), snipers, all support weapons (mortars, MG42 emplacements, etc.), mines, and cheap chaff if you can't afford the other stuff (volks)
+ You get the Light AT Squad that dominates light vehicles and light tanks (meaning you don't have to actually bother getting AT until a tank your grenade launcher rifle can't penetrate arrives)
+ Maultier at 0 CP, you don't even have to pay CP for your artillery options like all the other doctrines.
+ You get the best Ace tank in the game (crazy stats, it can tank 90mm shots with the vet tank commander and buffed HP and it shoots every 1-2 SECONDS at vet 4 with blitzkrieg assault and rapid rounds activated)
+ You get the cheapest panther in the game, at 680 MP (this is cheaper than the sherman jackson) and only costing lots of fuel (and 110 isn't even that much when your tank upkeep is super low already).
+ You get a stuka airstrike too, just in case the maultiers are not enough.
+ Stupa pretty much 2-3 shots emplacements with its long range ability and outranges AT emplacements, and you can get double stuhs instead if you wanna screw around.
+ you get FUEL SUPPLIES and MANPOWER BLITZ. You just have to control ammo and you can not give a flying @$*! about fuel or MP...
+ You have PZ3 in your kriegs barracks, you just need to tech sturm and you get the best tank HE tank in the game in 5 minutes...
+ Combat Support gives you PZ3 and Stormtroopers (upgraded already) now and you can get it along with an early pz3 5-10 minutes into the game...
+ PZ4 Command Tank can make your tanks turn into Neo with the defensive aura buff and make them all dodge any shots any unit takes at them
+ You get a stormtrooper halftrack, comes with a droppable stormtrooper officer squad that can mortar barrage anyplace he wants; and this halftrack acts as a retreat point and heals your stormtroopers.
+ Late game, your stormtroopers can evasive crawl wherever they want, so the urban assault variant or all stg44 equipped guys can instantly kill squads if you aren't scanning every possible location they might come from.
+ blitzkrieg assault is basically a flank speed + rapid fire for tanks + free sprint for infantry + free inspired assault (with no downsides for infantry) + heavy crush for mediums (meaning you can roll over all destructibles with a stug 3, turning it into a fast bulldozer)

The list goes on and on... When I read the words "this doctrine is OP because it has good inf + good tanks + good artillery." What immediately comes into my mind is blitzkrieg doc (and don't tell me maultier is 'bad arty' because I've only seen this thing die once in a bluemoon and every other time it gets +50 inf kills and is at vet 3-4). And blitz is WAY, WAY worse than PS, not even close to the levels of broken you can reach with it; you don't need a king tiger when you can get 3+ panther d2s (and use manpower blitz to immediately get a panther ace) which are basically better than 1 KT, just because you are spamming FUEL SUPPLY and know your panther only costs you 680 MP.

EDIT: I checked my replay again when I was playing PS, and while the jagdpanther has become cheaper, it still appears to have the same upkeep as before, which is super low for its class, that should be looked at.

First of all I want you to know, that we were talking about the TH doctrine, I did not discuss at any time about the strength of bk doc ... in the case of bk, I should delay the time in which the panther ace comes (increase in cp for the ace panther), the panthers that you can create with the doc bk are not op, because you can knock it down with the jackson and I know because I was playing with the doctrine of inf vs bk, and practically in conclusion bk is strong xq can have the panther ace fast, in the same way also note that the 76 mm cannons are stronger vs the panthers (you should try it in pvp, even take down the panther ace with two shots with a 76 mm cannon, so try it) The maultier is not a big problem if you are very aggressive vs the bk and if you are attentive to the sound of the shot you could save your infantry and attack again quickly if you have a close retreat point, also remember that it is not free to shoot with the maultier and that this artillery is not good against the structures flush, at least not with a single volley, bk's infantry like all other infantry of its kind should receive a nerf (exactly what I mean at this point is that after decay, it should take like 7 seconds in re-camouflage, like all tanks and infantry that have these characteristics, maybe later I will have a debate about this solution to camouflage, which is a cancer in bk mod), when you tell me about the stug of bk doc, you I can say that it is not a big deal, I invite you to use the 76 mm shermans so that you can see that they can destroy it up to one shot at stug 3 and two shots at 4, only the stug last version is really strong, but It is not in the bk doctrine, the brombaer (or whatever it is written) in the bk doctrine, is RIDICULOUS, that had to be left in the def doc, or maybe give TH instead of introducing the wespe in that doctrine


I want you to also mention the strengths of for example the infantry doctrine as well, since you explain everything very well

Moving on to what is really ridiculous, is that the wespe is introduced in the doctrine of th, because you have a fire power superior to the doctrine of bk and the defensive, all those strengths that you mentioned in the doctrine bk, TH has with their tanks and much more, for example bk doc has problems against armor (stronger sherman spam, pershing, sp, ace pershing, keep in mind that right now the 1v1s are not the majority of the games played, but they are 2v2 or 3v3 but this does not happen with TH, it is strong in itself, much more with a wespe in it), there are many changes that are ridiculous also for the allies that give a disadvantage in some way, but solvable, but in another moment I will talk about it


One more thing, if you have a team to play 3v3 or 4v4 let me know, to be able to coordinate a pvp with a team of mine, so we will achieve a better balance of the game, so if there are interested players for play, to test everything in pvp what we're talking about ,
it would be good, I want to see play to warhakws mainly


Note:
I use the google translator to be able to put my ideas in English, sometimes I feel that it translates it very badly, but I try to make sure what I want to say is understood, I hope I have explained myself well and
and the hope that I haven't missed an important point

[crazzy501]

Axis in general dont have issues beating enemie tanks. So having a doctrine that is specializsed in destroying tanks is some sort of not needed overkill, esspecially in team fights.

My idea is give PE tank oriented doctrine unique play style with this cazemate TDs. And as a second reason I think that this tanks must be used as a heavy defensive position breacher, as they intended for. Tigers and Panthers can be penetrated and destroyed in front with AP with any weapon larger than 76mm (not stubby versions obviously). Unlike Tigers and Panthers JagdPanzers as example have more heavy front armor, that can protect them even from Pershing 90mm (JagdPanzer (V) + vet2 + digging in) but have less protection for flank attacks. In that case I think we need infantry buffs for cover this cazemate tanks. And here we are: we have already good cazemate tanks for breaching that MUST be supported with infantry. Some sort of P4 can be in tech tree just as represent their popularity in German army at WW2 but not something more powerful. Tigers and Panthers is better fit in WH doctrines but not in PE (just in my opinion).

Add:
- P4 early (F2 or smth like that)
- Stug 3/4 (whatever. It's just must help to fight vs armored cars and early Shermans)
- Stuh 42 for early fight against emplacements and blob-spams

Remove:
- P4 J/H (for give them uniqueness for WH doctrines)
- Panthers and Tigers (coz it's just copy-paste units from WH)
- Wespe and stuka's (we already have good breachers as JagdPanthers and omg JT and because arty units not well fits tank oriented doctrine unlike SE doc)

PS: globally I think that any doctrine must have their unique playstyle with their pros and cons but because PE TD doctrine is my favorite I have more interest in balancing in. Look at Warcraft 3 or C&C as example of balancing

[Warhawks97]

Axis in general dont have issues beating enemie tanks. So having a doctrine that is specializsed in destroying tanks is some sort of not needed overkill, esspecially in team fights.

My idea is give PE tank oriented doctrine unique play style with this cazemate TDs. And as a second reason I think that this tanks must be used as a heavy defensive position breacher, as they intended for. Tigers and Panthers can be penetrated and destroyed in front with AP with any weapon larger than 76mm (not stubby versions obviously). Unlike Tigers and Panthers JagdPanzers as example have more heavy front armor, that can protect them even from Pershing 90mm (JagdPanzer (V) + vet2 + digging in) but have less protection for flank attacks. In that case I think we need infantry buffs for cover this cazemate tanks. And here we are: we have already good cazemate tanks for breaching that MUST be supported with infantry. Some sort of P4 can be in tech tree just as represent their popularity in German army at WW2 but not something more powerful. Tigers and Panthers is better fit in WH doctrines but not in PE (just in my opinion).

Jagdtiger is some sort of it.


Thing is these casemate tanks dont breach anything the normal Panther or KT cant breach.

They are just hard to hit as fuck and sit arround ambushed. Barely saw anyone pushing hard with IV/70. Its just go to the next crater and wait.
What Tigers dont have in armor they have in HP.
The Jagdpanther does not provide better protection than normal Panthers, exceptions are 90 mm guns against which it is much better but thats probably just a bug or mistake bc against all other guns the normal panther offers a better protection.

Spamming casemate tanks and expecting to break through defenses was never practiced in pvp.
They also lack the HE.

The IV/70 offers better armor protection than tiger when it comes to 90 mm guns but but not that much more than panthers.
The Thinking that the german casemate tanks are there for assaulting is a myth except for the stugs. The Jagdpanzer IV´s and Hetzers were purely defensive. The Jagdpanther was thought to provide long range heavy anti tank fire for the attacking inf but not to break through heavy AT gun lines and trenches. They got just missused for it.


And as said, in game we had such a doc and it was all about ambush the game to death or using the "never being hit" stats from the Jagdpanzer IV.

Add:
- P4 early (F2 or smth like that)
- Stug 3/4 (whatever. It's just must help to fight vs armored cars and early Shermans)
- Stuh 42 for early fight against emplacements and blob-spams

and here is what bugs me. I would like to see the F2 to be reduced to certain docs that have tanks just as small support like SE.
Its a stupid, outdated in-game OP spam tank with 50 mm of magic armor.

I would like to have its armor fixed bc the armor this tank is what was the H/J should have right now. And even these would be slightly too good.

Remove:
- P4 J/H (for give them uniqueness for WH doctrines)
- Panthers and Tigers (coz it's just copy-paste units from WH)
- Wespe and stuka's (we already have good breachers as JagdPanthers and omg JT and because arty units not well fits tank oriented doctrine unlike SE doc)

An here it comes, since this doc is tank orientated to assault with tanks, and not just casemate defensive orientated tanks like in the past which dont have really better armor than the normal tanks (in fact, the IV/48 and Hetzer have worse armor than the Panzer IV H/J against 76 guns), it should have the creme de la creme of german armor.

In terms of arty yes, off map strikes from vehicles and command tank IV will probably be enough for this doc, but not when it uses only casemate tanks that dont have better armor or HE rounds to support the infantry against fortifications.


Removing H/J would make this doc even worse and more campy with casemate tanks than old TH doc and while killing the fun of the game when every shit runs arround with these stupid broken F2´s.


And when it comes down to units being and more docs:
shermans, 76 shermans, M10´s, churchill tanks, priests etc... they are all in various doctrines and factions.
Why is axis not allowed to have same units in various docs.
Esspecially the Tank IV H/J and Panthers are so iconic and german mainstay that you cant put each of them in just one doc.
We already have situations with multiple BK docs in one game simply bc its the only doctrine that has the german core units and workhorses.