Motorcycle/Schwimmwagen MG42/34

[Warhawks97]

I watched Tigers schwimmwagen video on yt trolling the enemie.

I then checked the stats. I wanna ask if its intended that this weapon is so much better than the MG42/34 that is mounted on top of tanks.

Top mounted MG42/34 has 15-20 damage and 0.1 accuracy at max range.

Schwimmwagen has 0.2 accuracy and 20-25 damage.


Just asking.

[CGarr]

Probably just an oversight, although the schwimm isn't great against vehicles so I wouldn't change it. I assume you aren't having issues facing it, but if you are just treat it like the 50 jeeps. Run to cover and sit tight until support units come.

[Krieger Blitzer]

it would make sense if the top mounted is as good as the Schwimwagen's... Although that i would prefer to keep it all as it is, after all the Schwim is just a car so there is no problems to have such bonus/advantage.

[Warhawks97]

it would make sense if the top mounted is as good as the Schwimwagen's... Although that i would prefer to keep it all as it is, after all the Schwim is just a car so there is no problems to have such bonus/advantage.

The top mounts had been like current schwimnwagen mgs and got changed for good reasons. Their damage output was greater than that of cal 50. They shred inf too fast. The coax and hull mgs became useful in return as self defense weapons.

There is no MG in this game that uses damage values combined with such accuracy anymore.

So since top mounts and pretty much all mgs on vehicles with such calibre got standardized, I would say it's an oversight.

[Krieger Blitzer]

Probably an oversight, yes.. however; what i'm saying is that i believe it's not necessary to change; since that Schwim is only a car (which has lower HP than Jeeps and also lower than WH Schwim btw) not to mention 50.cals are still the best, against both inf and vehicles.

So, it's an over-sight.. but no balance breaker in any possible ways, shape or form; in my opinion.

[MarKr]

Tanks were one thing as they have combined weaponry of the main gun, coaxial and/or hull MGs and some also have the top MGs which provide additional firepower against infantry and to top it all, tanks are immune to bullets.
The top MGs on tanks were nerfed a bit but the coaxials and hull MGs got buffed a bit. Schwimms have no coaxial/hull MGs nor bullet immunity.

So is it necessary to nerf the unit? Is there any gameplay reason to change it and nerf Axis early-game?

[Warhawks97]

So is it necessary to nerf the unit? Is there any gameplay reason to change it and nerf Axis early-game?

We have had a talk last night in Discord (Wald, Mencius, Redgaarden Robert and me) about several topics. And it included this one.

It can mow down a half squad (or its HP) in a single burst in early games which is quite powerfull for being just a reconassaince unit. Esspecially engineers sometimes die to a quick burst fired from max range and forcing an instant retreat or to die outright. If costs would drop a bit i wouldnt mind.


Few years ago i had a mate abusing schwimmwagens (he build nothng else thatn schwimmwagens) and rushed up for TD´s (esspecially Jagdpanther later). It was like a mothership that had its small deadly protective drones arround it and schred down infantry with ease and which repaired each other and the Tank. And apparently its still possible today.

It wields a firepower that is superior currently than that of a rifle squad. Average damage per bullet is almost that of an M1 Garand (22,5 vs 25) and its accuracy at max range almost twice as good.
And its also a lot more deadly than a infantry lmg34 and i dont see why it should be this way.
The Jeeps MG1919 is not more deadly than that of rangers. So why should schwimmwagen be so much superior to the infantry lmg34?

Also, units like the cal 50 jeep does share the same stats with other vehicle mounted cal 50´s.
I dont see why the same weapon should such vastly different stats. Its not just a minor difference. The schwimmwagens mounted MG is more than twice as deadly at distant range than those mounted on tanks and stuff.



If it comes down to balance with the jeep, you can change the TT. The jeep suffers a 40% damage reduction against schwimmwagens (10.5 damage per hit in average). The schwimm deals 60% less damage in the TT. But jeep as its own damage modifier increasing damage by all sources by 1.3. The damage per hit if the damage of schwimmwagen is adjusted to 15-20 from current 20-25 would then be 9.1 (from current 11.7).


accuracy is currently the same for both at longer ranges, rof favours schwimm, HP the Jeep etc....

So i would suggest to adjust the values of these units.

Schwimm damage would go from 20-25 (cal 50 has currently 20-30 to give an idea) to 15-20 (which is currently the normal damage for all lmgs of this class as it seems or for the majority with some exceptions still but at least for all vehicle mounted MG´s of this calibre).
The accuracy would also be adjusted from 0.2 to 0.1 at max range.

If anyone comes up an say it would be too weak, Note pls that this is pretty much the stats of the lmg34 for the infantry which i guess no one would blame as being too weak. At long range the performance would still be better than that of the infantry version due to better accuracy.
You can also fire way more bursts than the infantry lmg34.
So i think that all seems quite fair.


The damage modifier in the TT vs jeeps would be changed from 0.4 to 0.45. Thus increasing the damage from 11.7 to 11.375 per hit.

The jeeps max range accuracy would perhaps go down to 0.15 accuracy (from 0.2)

[Krieger Blitzer]

Tanks were one thing as they have combined weaponry of the main gun, coaxial and/or hull MGs and some also have the top MGs which provide additional firepower against infantry and to top it all, tanks are immune to bullets.
The top MGs on tanks were nerfed a bit but the coaxials and hull MGs got buffed a bit. Schwimms have no coaxial/hull MGs nor bullet immunity.

So is it necessary to nerf the unit? Is there any gameplay reason to change it and nerf Axis early-game?

Exactly what i'm trying to say.


@Hawks
i don't think that it's too much of a problem to lead up for an obligation to tweak all these different values for various units... i mean, are we sliding again into this "jeep vs Schwim" balance vortex? just because we found out from a replay here or there that Schwim has some better MG values? i can still remember the hassle which surrounded this "jeep vs Schwim balance" topic back in the days.

Hence, i believe the Schwim doesn't really need any tweaks.. as it's still too fragile and so easy to counter by the way.
50.cals eat them for breakfast!

[Warhawks97]

Its not about jeep vs schwimm shit. In discord someone mentioned the schwimm being "mini tigers" and instantly pressing the retreat button and often enough shredding a engi squad in a burst. But anyway.


The Bottom line is that all MG´s on vehicles got tweaked to be reasonable effective without being slaughtermachines.



The stats just seem off. Why should a MG mounted on a schwimmwagen be so much more deadly than any other? Its base damage is far beyond that of any other MG34 or MG42.


Just to give you an idea of the effectivness of all comparable mgs (all MG34s)

LMG34:
damage: 16-20
max range accuracy: 0.1


Tank mounted MG´s ( coax/hull and top):
damage: 15-20
max range accuracy: 0.05-0.1

Schwimm:
20-25
0.2



If we compare it to the HMG42 and lmg42 their damge is also 16-21 and 17-22 and their accuracy is also 0.125 to 0.1


So in all respect, the speed this unit can shred infantry is way above what it should be for a unit whos main purpose is support and reconassaince and not being like a mobile HMG42 platform.



And comparing it to tanks is out of place here. A Tank fields 3 MG´s so i think its supposed to have more firepower. But right now that thing has a firepower comparable to all three MG´s on a tank combined.
I dont see how this can be an argument to have a single MG being as strong as three other MG´s of the same type.



On top of that: What would you say when the standard Jeeps MG would be twice as deadly as the once the Rangers can carry? Guess everyone would call the MG being out of place.

[Redgaarden]

I wouldn't mind putting down the accuracy of both Jeep and Schwimm down to 0.15, I have always hated both these vehicles.

[kwok]

Hehehe, hey warhawks just for fun you should include the ROF of all the weapons to give a full picture of how much damage they do.

ALLIES OP AND SHADOW NERFS FTW.

[Warhawks97]

Hehehe, hey warhawks just for fun you should include the ROF of all the weapons to give a full picture of how much damage they do.

ALLIES OP AND SHADOW NERFS FTW.

The rof is 15 for all mg34. Lmg, top mount and Schwimm.

Hmg42 is 25 rounds in a sec.
But still all these weapons have 0.1 to max 0.125 accuracy and max 22 damage in a hit.

Schwimm has twice the accuracy and 22,5 as average damage.

[kwok]

Yeah without modifiers you’re saying schwimms could do 500 to 625 damage per second? When even the toughest roughest allied infantry squad has 400hp? That a Schwimmer can single burst an elite infantry squad in one second? Is that what you’re saying?

[Warhawks97]

Yeah without modifiers you’re saying schwimms could do 500 to 625 damage per second? When even the toughest roughest allied infantry squad has 400hp? That a Schwimmer can single burst an elite infantry squad in one second? Is that what you’re saying?

? i dont know what you want to refer to.

I just pointed out that it can shred half an inf squad in the early game from max range and that it is a lot more deadly than every weapon of its kind. Essentially its sisters are not even half as good at max range than this thing.

Thats why i keep building them instead of giving volks lmg34 for which i have to pay 75 ammo.


Thats why i asked what players would think of the normal jeep would have twice the damage output at max range than the lmg1919a6 from the normal ranger squad. I guess players would be upset.

I keep building cal 50 jeeps throughout games lately and the schwimmwagen or bike is just as usefull against inf. I kept spamming bikes against you and others with big success and Tiger could abuse the unit to an extent compared to which every other anti infantry unit looks like a joke.

Its a reconassaince unit in the first place and mean to replace lmgs on infantry squads.


we have standardized guns, machine guns (like the cal 50 had vastly different stats in the past) and so on so why keeping this one special?

I think it sucks that you have to retreat right after the first burst from such a unit bc the health of your inf squad was cut almost in half in the early game.



And yes, the modifiers like cover etc apply to other vehicle mounted mgs as well. Or do you want to tell me they dont?

[Krieger Blitzer]

Standardizations can be harmful sometimes.. as there are conditions when it's simply unfair to treat some certain units the same way as other units from a completely different category! Bk Mod is not a weapon simulator.

For example, unit Y can sometimes cost Z in doctrine A but then cost C in doctrine B despite it's the same unit.. but for balance, it's OK that same units can have different prices depending on the doctrine.

Same way, there is no problems in my opinion that some weapons behave differently across various units.. as long as balance is not broken or any units are deemed OP which is clearly not the case with the Schwimwagen as you can't claim such a fragile unit as OP no matter how good the firepower was.

[Warhawks97]

Standardizations can be harmful sometimes.. as there are conditions when it's simply unfair to treat some certain units the same way as other units from a completely different category! Bk Mod is not a weapon simulator.

Example?

Whats your opinion on the lmg34 from Volksgrenadiers. It kills stuff or am i wrong?

For example, unit Y can sometimes cost Z in doctrine A but then cost C in doctrine B despite it's the same unit.. but for balance, it's OK that same units can have different prices depending on the doctrine.

This is a whole different topic depending on what a doctrine has its focus. But i never heared that a weapon must be more powerfull in doc y than in doc z. Like its saying a certain gun has to be better in one doc than in another.

Same way, there is no problems in my opinion that some weapons behave differently across various units.. as long as balance is not broken or any units are deemed OP which is clearly not the case with the Schwimwagen as you can't claim such a fragile unit as OP no matter how good the firepower was.

the issue is that you can decimate infantry extremely fast in the early game from a long distant even when they have yellow cover sometimes.