SUPER BUMP. We are so close to finishing doctrine reworks. This might be the last major rework we will see before going into the "balance phase" of the reworks. We would really like to lock down ideas for large rework structural changes, especially regarding the tank hunter doctrine.
This proposal is just MY idea, not representative of what the dev team will decide to do.
Prologue
This was one of the hardest doctrines to think through because of so many ideas brought by players as well as it having so much history as a doctrine. The first thought is the doctrine direly needed a theme change in order to follow the "all doctrines viable in a 1v1" philosophy. While tankhunter today has no problem with facing any other doctrine, the same can't be said the otherway around, namely the armor and RE doctrines who would struggle against tank hunter today. So, some "nerfs" would be needed while keeping the fun value of the doctrine (This goes both ways. It's not just important to make a doctrine that's fun to play as but also play against. For example, some ideas that were brought up was a doctrine based on ambushes and camo. This might be fun to play as but god damn would it be a pain to face... it would ruin the fun for opponents to deal with such a frustrating doctrine). While personally I don't like the idea, a large part of the community wanted a "Panzer" focused doctrine, which is understandable since tank warfare and German tanks were such an iconic part of World War II. If US can have a tank focused doctrine, why can't Axis? This is how the "Panzer Support" doctrine came to mind. That being said, I hope this doctrine will cover a lot of what you all asked for.
Base Doctrine Changes
- Hotchkiss will be available in the Logistik building after the initial building upgrade
- Hotchkiss will have a 25mu HE shell upgrade that unlocks a one shot HE round ability costing 25mu likened to the chaffee HE shell shot
Tank Hunter Path and Tank Path
-Early/Late (reward choice?) Tiger Tank available from Panzer Command building, (same cost as Propaganda Doc?)
-Early/Late (reward choice?) King Tiger Tank available from Panzer Command building, (same cost as Propaganda Doc?)
-Jagdtiger no longer call in but buildable from the panzer support building for 1200mp, 190fu, same build time as king tiger.
-Fuel trade 100mu for 100fu.
The tank hunter path will remain relatively untouched to preserve its roots as a Tank Hunter doctrine. The key change that makes it different than the formidable uber-tank countering doctrine (aka hard counters to the US armor doc) will be the fact that many unlocks like zimmermit coat, periscope, etc. will be removed from the doctrine, leaving the tank hunters to be more supportive and defensive in nature. A new path will be created to unlock tanks that has high CP costs to unlock. The intent here is to create a mid-game tradeoff decision for players on the macro level: to choose well-rounded tanks or more defensive but reliable tank hunters? This will be a net buff to the tank hunter's mid game because of its added flexibility but net nerf to its late game since the tank path has replaced any sort of buffs that tank hunter units would get that makes them end-game units.
Artillery Path
-Reduce Logistic unit fuel costs by 5 fuel each.
-Observation Car, an armored car unit (still to be determined which) with offmap ability options (35mu Smoke Drop, 80mu Mortar Barrage)
-Observation Panzer IV with offmap ability options (35mu Smoke Drop, 150mu 105mm Artillery Barrage)
-Rocket Hotchkiss upgrade unlocked
This was a difficult decision because while some high level players preferred a more high-skill oriented doctrine that focuses more on direct engagement rather than indirect, it's recognized various factors that would hurt the "fun value" for a lot of players who may not have the particular micro-skill to pull off such a high-skill doctrine (for those players who want that high skill high reward experience, we still recommend Propaganda doc. It has a lot of untapped potentially). The rocket hotchkiss was kept as a part of the doctrine to provide a hard-counter solution against hard camps, especially for the likes of royal engineer or infantry doctrine which are strong early-mid game doctrines that can set up strong defenses fast. However, we know that hotchkiss rockets as they are today are enormously powerful, reliable, and available early which encourages camping-until-hotchkiss-is-ready strategies which is just not fun to play against. Putting a variety of artillery options that can flex depending on playstyle will hopefully making camping still viable but much more difficult as a strategy.
The fuel cost reduction has been included in the beginning of the path to compensate for probably fuel waste against hard camping opponents. Don't throw light vehicles out as a viable option just because the enemy has set up AT! Be bold and try to find flanking positions with your light vehicles without worrying too much about being punished.
Panzergrenadier Support
-Vehicle Aura Buff, gives basic panzer grenadiers a -15% weapon cooldown reduction (stacks) when within 35-radius of light vehicles created in the logistik building
-Tank Aura Buff, gives basic panzer grenadiers a -10% weapon cooldown reduction (stacks) when within 35-radius of tanks or tank hunters created in the panzer command or support buildings
-Panzer Grenadier Price Reduction, reduces the MP cost of panzer grenadiers to 295MP
Some great ideas were brought by the community to help form this change. Bringing in buffs to infantry to encourage a combined arms capability for the doctrine will enable more variety in playstyle choice for players. These buffs are early to mid game powerspikes will hopefully encourage players to be more proactive in the mid-game and gain advantage rather than hide behind strong Axis camps formerly viable through base strong defensive units and reliable, strong, non-CP-unlock artillery (a compensation for the net nerf from the Artillery Path changes). This was also designed based on community various recommendations and feedback. Some notes on those suggestions:
- Players would like to see smaller PE squads so that they would be cheaper and could be used more tactically. This is something I am vehemently against for a couple reasons. First, my experience in creating a mod in CoH2 showed that smaller squad sizes are way too difficult for the majority of players to micro due to the expotnential relationship between durability/power and squad size. Second, we have tried this on a small "test" scale with the British assault squad and the general feedback has been "make the squad bigger". While it's true that the british assault squad is a drastically different type of unit to PE basic inf squads, the idea that the unit becomes effectively useless as soon as the squad starts taking losses. At 3 men to a squad, conservative players usually start retreating. At 2 men to a squad, even the most aggressive players start retreating. At 1 man, most the time that squad is basically dead unless they are being used for a super gambit.
-Snipers hard counter PE infantry because of the PE inf high cost. Ironically this feedback contradicts the previous feedback on smaller squad sizes. General buffs to the PE infantry should make the fast losses incurred by snipers be less punishing. This way unchanged snipers retain their utility against elite infantry spams while PE infantry get some thematic role within a new doctrine.
Concerns
I still have some concerns about this doctrine. First one being that the tank hunter path will still hard counter armor doctrine. Tried to line up the CP unlocks with the tank unlocks from US armor doc so that each unit will still be viable in their respective stages of the game. Will look forward to see games and build orders for this doctrine
Another player who has helped talk through some ideas was also worried that camping will still be easy with the early HE hotchkiss/tank hunter combo. Ever since artillery changes, bombing out camo'd tank destroyers has become harder unless you can rush handheld AT up. But with HE hotchkiss, it would make it really hard to chase the TD's out. Hopefully the fact that the HE shots will be single shot will add a "skill" aspect to camping. But, I know some players are too good at the game and can really abuse the combo regardless.
Another very very true comment was that this doctrine is not too different from the propaganda doctrine and maybe even stronger especially when looking just at the tanks available and the fact that Pgrens are cheaper. In certain aspects yes, tank support doctrine is much easier to play for the lower-medium level players. My thoughts here are that the skill cap (how much you can get out of a doctrine with skill before the doctrine itself stops becoming any better) is higher for propaganda doctrine and there is still a lot of open potential for high level players to learn how strong propaganda can be in combo with buff/debuff abilities. Just speculation... I suspect you'll find a lot of players choosing this doctrine over propaganda, but those who venture to get good at blitz mod will find propaganda to be extremely rewarding and fun. My biggest worry is this doctrine turns into what Luft doc is today (an 80% play rate and extremely high win rate among lower-medium skilled players).
Tarakancheg: I want volkssturmm to upgrade to knights cross holders at vet 5 so that I can just show players how bad they are.