Snipers rebalance

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mofetagalactica
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Snipers rebalance

Post by mofetagalactica »

We all had those games where we had double sniper on the other team completely locking infantry offensive formation with pretty much 0 skill, we all also tried running into them as fast as possible to detect them and shot them, we all also had stupid situations where we had 3 of the models that had survived to the stupid super rate of fire of such snipers and couldn't deal with it at point blank range with the sniper just running away for uknown reasons maybe super high hp pool or "armor"?

I hope we all have the same feelings about them being sooo vanilla like , and forcing the game to turn into camping shit until you have things like armored cars with way bigger detection range like recce or just a bunch of arty/mortar/bombs/planes to deal with them?

Some of my suggestions of what we can do with them for the momment:


-Delay them until Tier 2 (motorpool building,Battle phase,infantry support building(pe))
or
Tier 3 (motorpool upgrade,panzer fabric, logistik upgrade (pe))
-Removal of super rof hability
-Easier to detect (Not having to be point blank range to see them cammoed)
-Less re-camo time
-Limit 1
-Slight price reduction

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Warhawks97
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Re: Snipers rebalance

Post by Warhawks97 »

Any infantry related upgrade should be required.

WSC for US, Infantry support building for PE, first upgrade for WH.

Some hardcounter units would also be a good thing. But jeeps etc are currently not really cost effective hard counters. Bike is so far the best you can get.


They do have really a lot of HP that makes them surivive close range escapes.

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CGarr
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Re: Snipers rebalance

Post by CGarr »

mofetagalactica wrote:We all had those games where we had double sniper on the other team completely locking infantry offensive formation with pretty much 0 skill, we all also tried running into them as fast as possible to detect them and shot them, we all also had stupid situations where we had 3 of the models that had survived to the stupid super rate of fire of such snipers and couldn't deal with it at point blank range with the sniper just running away for uknown reasons maybe super high hp pool or "armor"?

I hope we all have the same feelings about them being sooo vanilla like , and forcing the game to turn into camping shit until you have things like armored cars with way bigger detection range like recce or just a bunch of arty/mortar/bombs/planes to deal with them?

Some of my suggestions of what we can do with them for the momment:


-Delay them until Tier 2 (motorpool building,Battle phase,infantry support building(pe))
or
Tier 3 (motorpool upgrade,panzer fabric, logistik upgrade (pe))
-Removal of super rof hability
-Easier to detect (Not having to be point blank range to see them cammoed)
-Less re-camo time
-Limit 1
-Slight price reduction


1. Sniper delay would hurt US anti-PE early game quite a bit since rifles are lackluster and light vehicles tend to get smacked by 28mm unless you play armor and get AT jeep, and other factions need a sniper available for countersniping so they shouldn't get delayed either.
2. Removing the ROF ability would be a welcome change.
3 and 4. agreed
5. 1 limit seems reasonable.
6. I'd argue a significant price reduction would be needed if they're going to be made easier to kill, as currently their price reflects both their offensive capabilities (which would be made worse by removal of rapid fire) and survivability (which would be lower due to being more easily detected).

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CGarr
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Re: Snipers rebalance

Post by CGarr »

One other alternative I can think of that could make sense alongside these changes or on it's own would be to give observer units (spotters, ketten, and dingo specifically) a mark target ability that also prevents the target from entering/returning to camo. This would help make snipers be less of a pain in the ass and would also help solve the issue regarding TD's and AT gun's re-cloaking mid fight. The ability would need some significant range to be effective but would pretty much negate all of these issues.

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Walderschmidt
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Re: Snipers rebalance

Post by Walderschmidt »

CGarr wrote:One other alternative I can think of that could make sense alongside these changes or on it's own would be to give observer units (spotters, ketten, and dingo specifically) a mark target ability that also prevents the target from entering/returning to camo. This would help make snipers be less of a pain in the ass and would also help solve the issue regarding TD's and AT gun's re-cloaking mid fight. The ability would need some significant range to be effective but would pretty much negate all of these issues.


This is the only real change I would like to see to snipers and I think it would be more than enough.

Maybe also give the Stormtrooper squad in the tank hunter doc a marksman ability similar to all British tommmies.

Wald
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CGarr
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Re: Snipers rebalance

Post by CGarr »

Walderschmidt wrote:
CGarr wrote:One other alternative I can think of that could make sense alongside these changes or on it's own would be to give observer units (spotters, ketten, and dingo specifically) a mark target ability that also prevents the target from entering/returning to camo. This would help make snipers be less of a pain in the ass and would also help solve the issue regarding TD's and AT gun's re-cloaking mid fight. The ability would need some significant range to be effective but would pretty much negate all of these issues.


This is the only real change I would like to see to snipers and I think it would be more than enough.

Maybe also give the Stormtrooper squad in the tank hunter doc a marksman ability similar to all British tommmies.

Wald


Honestly I'd prefer the observer thing I mentioned over any sniper changes since snipers are always either going to be either annoying or underpowered if we just work with direct changes to the unit itself rather than making its counters more feasible to use. Observer change is the only counter I can think of that wouldn't make the unit ridiculously strong against everything else or cause snipers to just be useless. Light vehicles are already quite strong in terms of raw stats (although in practice their shitty pathing can make this somewhat difficult to take advantage of), if they get buffed further then they would just be brainless killing machines like fallschrimjagers. If their detection range is made any higher than it is currently, stealth might as well not be an option.

With that being the case, giving pure observation units (generally the cheapest units in the game) a mark target ability like the one I described would add a cheap, effective, and consistent way to deal with snipers used in a similar manner to how brit inf sections can counter snipe. The micro tax would be there but it wouldn't be ridiculously high even though the ability would be manually activated. Countersniping with actual snipers would be easier (just timing the holdfire button once you think you're in range vs actively waiting and clicking on the enemy sniper like the brit abilitiy) but more expensive/risky than just marking the thing from a concealed position in bino mode and letting regular units blast it away.

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CGarr
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Re: Snipers rebalance

Post by CGarr »

CGarr wrote:
Walderschmidt wrote:
CGarr wrote:One other alternative I can think of that could make sense alongside these changes or on it's own would be to give observer units (spotters, ketten, and dingo specifically) a mark target ability that also prevents the target from entering/returning to camo. This would help make snipers be less of a pain in the ass and would also help solve the issue regarding TD's and AT gun's re-cloaking mid fight. The ability would need some significant range to be effective but would pretty much negate all of these issues.


This is the only real change I would like to see to snipers and I think it would be more than enough.

Maybe also give the Stormtrooper squad in the tank hunter doc a marksman ability similar to all British tommmies.

Wald


Honestly I'd prefer the observer thing I mentioned over any sniper changes since snipers are always either going to be either annoying or underpowered if we just work with direct changes to the unit itself rather than making its counters more feasible to use. Observer change is the only counter I can think of that wouldn't make the unit ridiculously strong against everything else or cause snipers to just be useless. Light vehicles are already quite strong in terms of raw stats (although in practice their shitty pathing can make this somewhat difficult to take advantage of), if they get buffed further then they would just be brainless killing machines like fallschrimjagers. If their detection range is made any higher than it is currently, stealth might as well not be an option.

With that being the case, giving pure observation units (generally the cheapest units in the game) a mark target ability like the one I described would add a cheap, effective, and consistent way to deal with snipers used in a similar manner to how brit inf sections can counter snipe. The micro tax would be there but it wouldn't be ridiculously high even though the ability would be manually activated. Countersniping with actual snipers would be easier (just timing the holdfire button once you think you're in range vs actively waiting and clicking on the enemy sniper like the brit abilitiy) but more expensive/risky than just marking the thing from a concealed position in bino mode and letting regular units blast it away.


As I described above, this ability would also happen to solve the TD issue as an added bonus.

I agree on the PE storm SS squad getting a marksman ability like brits, I like this more than just having a sniper in the squad. Same can be said for US AB command squad, although I'd probably give the ability to 101st instead and remove any sniping capabilities from the command squad altogether.

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mofetagalactica
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Re: Snipers rebalance

Post by mofetagalactica »

¿And this wouldn't solve anything because the sniper has enought ROF and HIGH HP to kill you anyway? Everyone knows that the easiest way to deal with them is just getting another sniper/suicidal bike/arty him to dead/using infantry section sniper hability.

Snipers on COH 2 were totally fixed in comparition to COH 1, they don't have the same rof neither the same HIGH HP Pool and can't crawl only cammo on cover.

¿Why we don't make the Sniper a 2 model squad with half ROF and no crawl hability just cammo on cover? Maybe even binocular hability from the second model following the sniper so it could actually be credible?

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Warhawks97
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Re: Snipers rebalance

Post by Warhawks97 »

mofetagalactica wrote:¿And this wouldn't solve anything because the sniper has enought ROF and HIGH HP to kill you anyway? Everyone knows that the easiest way to deal with them is just getting another sniper/suicidal bike/arty him to dead/using infantry section sniper hability.

Snipers on COH 2 were totally fixed in comparition to COH 1, they don't have the same rof neither the same HIGH HP Pool and can't crawl only cammo on cover.

¿Why we don't make the Sniper a 2 model squad with half ROF and no crawl hability just cammo on cover? Maybe even binocular hability from the second model following the sniper so it could actually be credible?


Actually not a bad idea

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CGarr
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Re: Snipers rebalance

Post by CGarr »

mofetagalactica wrote:¿And this wouldn't solve anything because the sniper has enought ROF and HIGH HP to kill you anyway? Everyone knows that the easiest way to deal with them is just getting another sniper/suicidal bike/arty him to dead/using infantry section sniper hability.

Snipers on COH 2 were totally fixed in comparition to COH 1, they don't have the same rof neither the same HIGH HP Pool and can't crawl only cammo on cover.

¿Why we don't make the Sniper a 2 model squad with half ROF and no crawl hability just cammo on cover? Maybe even binocular hability from the second model following the sniper so it could actually be credible?


A bit extreme if you ask me but I could see this being workable if the mark target thing doesnt work. Mark target would be way easier though and I'm pretty sure it'd solve the issue since snipers are generally pretty easy to kill when uncloaked.

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CGarr
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Re: Snipers rebalance

Post by CGarr »

mofetagalactica wrote:¿And this wouldn't solve anything because the sniper has enought ROF and HIGH HP to kill you anyway? Everyone knows that the easiest way to deal with them is just getting another sniper/suicidal bike/arty him to dead/using infantry section sniper hability.

Snipers on COH 2 were totally fixed in comparition to COH 1, they don't have the same rof neither the same HIGH HP Pool and can't crawl only cammo on cover.

¿Why we don't make the Sniper a 2 model squad with half ROF and no crawl hability just cammo on cover? Maybe even binocular hability from the second model following the sniper so it could actually be credible?


Revisiting this because I've been thinking about it a lot recently, I think a form of this suggestion might actually work really well. Snipers could be 2 or 3 man teams (1 sniper and 1 or 2 spotters/guards) and have to use a stationary firing position ability like the boys AT squad to get their normal accuracy and rate of fire. They could retain their crawl ability and even be made cheaper (therefore becoming less of a risky investment, allowing them to be used by less skilled players more easily), but since the squad is larger, it'd be easier to find. Their health could also be decreased so you don't run into the issue of 3 dudes walking up to a sniper without being able to kill it at close range before it runs away. They'd require more micro than they're worth late game so they'd serve as more of a utility at that point, they'd just be more prevelant in the early game.

An alternative would be the current single man squad with much longer range and the same health and offensive stats, and even keeping the crawl. Their re-cloak time could be increased significantly so that their position is given away the entire time they are firing, as it wouldnt matter against normal units (cant reach with direct fire). Countersniping and using indirect fire would become much easier though. Wikinger does something like this and snipers are both incredibly strong in that and much easier to deal with if you spot them, here it'd be even easier since spotter's vision isn't blocked by line of sight.

Personally I like the second of these two options more than anything thats been suggested in this thread (my own suggestions included) but that's just me.

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Mantis
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Re: Snipers rebalance

Post by Mantis »

I think 1 sniper per fraction is Ok. Actual sniper spam is not good. Snipers needs nerf. Their health(or defense?) is very high in my eyes. And ROF is very high too.

maousaki
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Re: Snipers rebalance

Post by maousaki »

How about a delay in firing when snipers reposition. I think the AT guns have it now. Although AT guns may have different relocation mechanics.

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idliketoplaybetter
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Re: Snipers rebalance

Post by idliketoplaybetter »

I dont want any changes to snipers.

Can anybody post a replay with the issue step-by-step explained? What i know, for the most part, its just players allow other to sitback behind mgs/snipers, then they are suprised that it is unbreakable, ROF is too high, numbers of snipers are too much or so on.
Even on this thread there are people who play basically the same 1 doctrine, blobbing to shit and the only way to counter them would be to have 2 snipers to hold it. And that is still not a 100% chance.

But this people are sure feel to add on the snipers issue. So i want the argument, not just cart-blanche for tards

I dont want this to be another "arty-ammo upkeep topic" that came out of nowhere, or as much as ive realized, from always same tunnel 3v3-4v4 players.
"You can argue only with like-minded people"

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Mantis
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Re: Snipers rebalance

Post by Mantis »

ILPB you are good tunel 3v3 player in my eyes. I want be so good as you anytime in future. You have so much skill. Right, 2 snipers are cool now.

MEFISTO
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Re: Snipers rebalance

Post by MEFISTO »

idliketoplaybetter wrote:I dont want any changes to snipers.

Can anybody post a replay with the issue step-by-step explained? What i know, for the most part, its just players allow other to sitback behind mgs/snipers, then they are suprised that it is unbreakable, ROF is too high, numbers of snipers are too much or so on.
Even on this thread there are people who play basically the same 1 doctrine, blobbing to shit and the only way to counter them would be to have 2 snipers to hold it. And that is still not a 100% chance.

But this people are sure feel to add on the snipers issue. So i want the argument, not just cart-blanche for tards

I dont want this to be another "arty-ammo upkeep topic" that came out of nowhere, or as much as ive realized, from always same tunnel 3v3-4v4 players.

+1

MEFISTO
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Re: Snipers rebalance

Post by MEFISTO »

There are some staff in this game that make it diferent and fun over others game like COH2 and men of war, why talk about coh2 snipers? I know snipers are enoying but you can make then too so what is the problem? you can use them to stop elite troops that some times you can't stop with other unit. Don't make this game boring if you want other kind of sniprers go to play Coh2 or men of war.

kwok
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Re: Snipers rebalance

Post by kwok »

I actually HATE dealing with double sniper spams. I think they are cheap, super effective, and lack very little skill. So it sucks for me to say that I agree with ILPB and Mefisto in that the snipers play an extremely important role to the balance of the game. A flat nerf without thinking through the impacts in more depth is not a good idea.

MEFISTO
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Re: Snipers rebalance

Post by MEFISTO »

kwok wrote:I actually HATE dealing with double sniper spams. I think they are cheap, super effective, and lack very little skill. So it sucks for me to say that I agree with ILPB and Mefisto in that the snipers play an extremely important role to the balance of the game. A flat nerf without thinking through the impacts in more depth is not a good idea.

I agree with you, the solution could be less snpiper's HP.

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idliketoplaybetter
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Re: Snipers rebalance

Post by idliketoplaybetter »

Mantis wrote:ILPB you are good tunel 3v3 player in my eyes. I want be so good as you anytime in future. You have so much skill. Right, 2 snipers are cool now.


You are not getting the meaning of my post, nor irony of you posting back.

Solution to what? Less HP why? I don't mind being wrong, just want good point to see so.

Honestly, want a fair game replay in which someone could represent what and why. Imperative to all this is that "we all had such games". Yes. Maybe. No.

We all had different games with different start/middle to the late outcome sometimes. I've seen strafing from both sides killing "sniper spam" in 1 rush and seen arty killing it with 1 shell, so no one could actually notice the impact of "spam".

Those who spam most, cant see among them the problem. So far i can think of this.
"You can argue only with like-minded people"

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Warhawks97
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Re: Snipers rebalance

Post by Warhawks97 »

game lacks dedicated and cost effective sniper counter.

Like when you have to counter tanks, you usually get cost effective AT guns and TD´s.
Against lots of inf you get MG´s, vehicles/tanks and dedicated anti inf stuff.
Against camping there is some nice dedicated anti camp stuff usually.

But countering snipers usually requires something that costs a lot more than the sniper or cant make it to it easily.
So far you end up bombing a lot many times when sniper has some sort of defense such as AT guns.


A very successfull tactic against snipers (but also against hidden AT guns and TD´s) has been using cheap light vehicles like jeeps and bikes. The bikes was the best option bc it was so cheap that allowed me to get always one at the field and to partole parts even behind enemie M10 formations. In a game some time ago that worked pretty well. The enemie had a number of M10´s and big AT guns that stopped by stugs and tank IV´s. Alongside were snipers that raped my stormtroopers. So it was more some sort "i have nothing to lose" tactic but it worked out well in that 2 vs 2 game. Somehow my opponent did not really adjust his tactics and kept lacking counter vehicles and inf and so at the end i had 2-3 bikes patroling and trolling the enemie. I blinded him and also found his M10´s which became easy targets to my stugs.

Jeeps and schwimms doing so just as well but are a lot more risky to use and eat up a lot more ressources in the long run.
But since then ive been asking to make these type of units more dedicated to patrole, recconassaince, exploiting and sniper/recon counter units just as the Bike does.

But still, we keep discussing about snipers and what to do with them. Its true that they have a lot of HP. But the main issue is the lack of dedicated and cost effective counters that would prevent every player from spamming them from the start of the battle.

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Mantis
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Re: Snipers rebalance

Post by Mantis »

Warhawks97: Yes, we need no replay to feel it. Its not necessary to drasticcally nerf snipers. I think 1 sniper per fraction, little bit health and ROF down will help total gameplay :)

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idliketoplaybetter
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Re: Snipers rebalance

Post by idliketoplaybetter »

That's the level of discussion. Eventually dev's will end up guilty for "changing anything" cause someone asked of whatexactly.

Really dudes, i admire you job, but i won't be willing to fit your snickers dealing with such audience. That's a trojan horse indeed.
"You can argue only with like-minded people"

MEFISTO
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Re: Snipers rebalance

Post by MEFISTO »

you can counter snipers with either a M5 Stuart "Recce ,M8 Armored Car, Motorcycle, vampire, jeep. Are they expensive?. The solution could be give then less HP that's it.

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mofetagalactica
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Re: Snipers rebalance

Post by mofetagalactica »

MEFISTO wrote:you can counter snipers with either a M5 Stuart "Recce ,M8 Armored Car, Motorcycle, vampire, jeep. Are they expensive?. The solution could be give then less HP that's it.


-M5 dosn't have a good radio detection
-M8 dosn't have a good radio detection
-Vampire is a cheated unit that should dissapear or completely be reworked also only 1 doc has it unless you want CW adquiring somekind of own "vampyre" with maphack cheat hability.

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