Panzer III (5.1.8 beta)

[kwok]

For the love of god, I am so sick of getting messages about the panzer III non stop but no one wants to make a dedicated discussion post on this.

You lazy bums, here's your post to talk about it. If no one says anything, then we do nothing. Private messages on steam, discord, and conversations on discord are NOT mediums for discussing balance. See how easy it is to make a post? Now talk about it amongst yourselves.

EDIT: I should be banned i broke a forum rule. edited to compliance.

[mofetagalactica]

Im just gonna make it simple, for this unit to be balanced on the macro game it should need a few changes such as:

-Speed reduction of turret rotation.
-Call in PZIII shouldn't come with APHE bought.
-Own armor table vs 75mm sherman and 76mm guns in general.


Off topic*

We also need to analize the pz4 F i think the gun is bugged out and its doing less damage than intended. *and price reduction for this could be a talk*

[CGarr]

figree summed my thoughts on it up pretty well

[mofetagalactica]

Blitzkrieg Doc Balances (more specifically Panzer III Changes)
Changes and feedback on the Pzr III can be discussed here:
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=3304
- now easier to penetrate from all sources by 20%
- Lowered turret rotation speed to 15 (from 35)
- HEAT/B shot cannot be used when HE mode is active (applied to PIII and all Stubby PIV versions)

What the fuck means "all sources" are we talking that they can get frontal pen 20% more than all AT guns even 37mm and 57mm ?
Can we get a more detailed stat about pen chances please? Because it sounds weird, such version of this pz3 had better armor than older pz3 versions and its a super important tank for this doctrine so take care about what you do with this unit.

I like the turret rotation speed changes it was maybe a bit too much tho (should be same rotation speed than panzer H)

Also the Panzer 4 F and panzer 3 E has weird difference in prices now, panzer E should get a price reduction maybe even same cost than the F version.

[Warhawks97]

What the fuck means "all sources" are we talking that they can get frontal pen 20% more than all AT guns even 37mm and 57mm ?
Can we get a more detailed stat about pen chances please? Because it sounds weird, such version of this pz3 had better armor than older pz3 versions and its a super important tank for this doctrine so take care about what you do with this unit.

I like the turret rotation speed changes it was maybe a bit too much tho (should be same rotation speed than panzer H)

Also the Panzer 4 F and panzer 3 E has weird difference in prices now, panzer E should get a price reduction maybe even same cost than the F version.

All sources means all sources. You have a pen chance x and it gets increased by 20%. That means its armor is probably weaker now than that of a Tank IV E or F1 version which is crap in my opinion bc this late version tank III had better armor than early Tank IV verions like the E and F versions.
Devs somewhere said that they wanted to make the tank III to be some sort of counterpart to stuarts and chaffes which in my opinion is going to be a huge mistake. If they would use the very first tank III versions then yes, they were quite equal in armor and armament to Stuarts. But this is the N version and Its armor should be better than that of most Tank V´s and on pair with Tank IV J/H. But then again it might become OP as is most tank IV armor is.

[MarKr]

It means that when any weapon shoots at the PIII, its chance to penetrate the armor is (chance_to_pen_before_update)*1.2.
In praxis then, before the update:
- the US 37mm gun had 19,5% chance to penetrate PIII frontally at max range. Now it is roughly 23%
- the US 57mm gun had about 45% chance to penetrate PIII frontally at max range. Now it is roughly 54%
- the 75mm Sherman had about 37% chance to penetrate PIII frontally at max range. Now it is roughly 44%
etc.

[mofetagalactica]

It means that when any weapon shoots at the PIII, its chance to penetrate the armor is (chance_to_pen_before_update)*1.2.
In praxis then, before the update:
- the US 37mm gun had 19,5% chance to penetrate PIII frontally at max range. Now it is roughly 23%
- the US 57mm gun had about 45% chance to penetrate PIII frontally at max range. Now it is roughly 54%
- the 75mm Sherman had about 37% chance to penetrate PIII frontally at max range. Now it is roughly 44%
etc.

And what is the chance againts other pz3 versions?

54% seems a lot for an at weapon that mostly get used on ambush (AT ht and manned AT) so i guess the chances to pen would go higher and with AP even more.

I mean the N version was pretty much fine as a unit being able to deal with 57 and 37mm, the only problem was againts 75mm shermans/chaffes and 76mm.

PZ3 N version should be the best tank available for tier 2 (so its not comparable to a chaffe and neither to a stuart) its the only tank being capable of putting pressure on the enemy as blitz doc on that tier, the only thing op about it is that it was going beyond this by fighting 75mm (chaffe/sherman) and 76mm shermans (tier 3).

[Shanks]

EDIT: I should be banned i broke a forum rule. edited to compliance.

Angre angre angre

[mofetagalactica]

Ok reviving post, cause my last question was ignored or forgotten, this unit is very important for current blitz beta doctrine, in his current update it dosn't provide anything special.

[MarKr]

And what is the chance againts other pz3 versions?

There are no other PIII versions, only the N so I presume you meant how does the AT gun perform against PIV versions. It performs the same as before the change. The change was applied only to the PIII.

[mofetagalactica]

And what is the chance againts other pz3 versions?

There are no other PIII versions, only the N so I presume you meant how does the AT gun perform against PIV versions. It performs the same as before the change. The change was applied only to the PIII.

This is a PZ3 post so, no im not talking about any pz4.

I guess that all pz3 share the same table now? ¿Even the N (better armored version) ?

I think this should go back before changes, since peopple only wanted this unit to have his own table just againts 75mm and 76mm.
- the US 37mm gun had 19,5% chance to penetrate PIII frontally at max range. Now it is roughly 23%
- the US 57mm gun had about 45% chance to penetrate PIII frontally at max range. Now it is roughly 54%

Also all other PanzerIII versions that aren't the N should get a price reduction just as PanzerIV F had, wich made it a more popular choice now, and im happy to see it.

[MarKr]

Sorry, I'm confused now...what versions of PIII are there? There is the N (call in + built, both same units in BK doc) and no other.

[mofetagalactica]

Sorry, I'm confused now...what versions of PIII are there? There is the N (call in + built, both same units in BK doc) and no other.

We got panzer 3 E versions on propaganda and defensive doc, we used to have D version available at blitz and we also have PanzerIII F version that comes with top mg (available for panzer elite scorched earth doc)

Also weird placements on Panzer 3 for defensive/propaganda and price compared to pz4 F (wich are the docs that are currently suffering a shit-ton on stuart/chaffe phase)

My advice would be to:
PZ3:
-Move panzerIII units (propaganda/defensive) to krieg barracks being able to be produced at assault phase
-Give PanzerIII F version to propaganda so you can actually have something decent to support sturms squads without having to rush stugIV
-PanzerIII E/F same price than PzIV F
-PzIII N same price than PzIV F after getting cheaper Pz4 cp unlock
-PzIII N better armor stats againts 57mm
-PZIII can upgrade APHE (ap special shot) and use it on assault phase (currently at late phase) without being able to use it when HE is on.
--------------other advices-------------
-MarderIII (defensive doc) moved to krieg barracks being able to be produced at assault phase afterall it was a shitty chasis unit with a big cannon
-75mm Halftrack (reward unit of 50mm puma) being able to be build at skirmish phase (from assault phase)
-Cammo or binoculars ability for Puma 50mm (compared to chaffe) and it would also make scense since it was a scout/flank unit. <---(experimental)
---------------------------------------------
proff:

[MarKr]

Panzer III and Panzer IV are not the same unit. In those screenshots you can see that the Def and Propaganda docs have Panzer IV ausf. E (1st + 7th screenshot), Blitz doc used to have Panzer IV ausf. D (not used at this moment), but now has Panzer III ausf. N (your screenshots number 3+4), then the 2nd and 5th screenshot shows Panzer IV ausf. F2 (long barrel - now added as a basic tank for BK and Propaganda).

PE, even when PE is not the subject of reworks now, has Panzer III ausf. N (exactly the same unit as Blitz has now, so no top MG) in SE and then Panzer IV ausf. F1 (with top MG) in TH.

So it is as I said - there is only 1 version of Panzer III in the game and it is the "N" version, the remaining tanks are various versions of Panzer IV.

[Warhawks97]

We got panzer 3 E versions on propaganda and defensive doc, we used to have D version available at blitz and we also have PanzerIII F version that comes with top mg (available for panzer elite scorched earth doc)

I would recommend you read the wikipedia articles about PZ 3 and PZ4. Both came out roughly at the same time and served from the first days of WW2.

Originally the PZ III was supposed to be the main tank with a 37 mm gun equiped. But soon the Tank got upgunned to a 50 mm L/42 as enemie armor proofed to be too strong to be penetrated by 37 mm guns and finally received the 50 mm L/60 gun as anti tank weapon.
The Panzer IV´s orginial role was pure support for the Panzer III´s and equiped with a Stubby 75 mm gun to destroy AT guns, weapon crews, Pillboxes, Infantry and any sort of fortifications and loopoing HE shells behind cover. Both tanks started with 30 mm armor and got soon upgraded to 50 mm armor for the Panzer IV till F2 version and 60 mm for the Panzer III J.

As the Tank III reached its maximum in terms of firepower, the Tank III and IV switched roles. The Tank IV received the longer 75 mm L/43 from the F2 version onwards and soon the 75 mm L/48 gun (G/H/J) version while the last Panzer III version (N) received the 75 mm stubby gun to fight soft targets. More than half of all Tank IV´s were long barrled versions, mainly H/J from 43 onwards.

Both also received thicker armor with up to 80 mm frontally.
That means that the Tank III N is actually more "modern" than the Tank IV´s with stubby guns.
Actually, the Tank III N has to be more wide spread among doctrines than the stubby Tank IV F1 and E versions. The D got luckily removed as it was a tank from 1940 and totally outdated at times when Panthers came out.

But that also means that the Tank III N would have comparable armor to Tank IV J, but the reality is that even the Stubby Tank IV E and F2 versions have better armor values with their actual 50 mm armor than the Tank III N currently has. And thats something that bugs me.


So my anwer to this is:

My advice would be to:
PZ3:
-Move panzerIII units (propaganda/defensive) to krieg barracks being able to be produced at assault phase
-Give PanzerIII F version to propaganda so you can actually have something decent to support sturms squads without having to rush stugIV
-PanzerIII E/F same price than PzIV F
-PzIII N same price than PzIV F after getting cheaper Pz4 cp unlock
-PzIII N better armor stats againts 57mm
-PZIII can upgrade APHE (ap special shot) and use it on assault phase (currently at late phase) without being able to use it when HE is on.
--------------other advices-------------
-MarderIII (defensive doc) moved to krieg barracks being able to be produced at assault phase afterall it was a shitty chasis unit with a big cannon
-75mm Halftrack (reward unit of 50mm puma) being able to be build at skirmish phase (from assault phase)
-Cammo or binoculars ability for Puma 50mm (compared to chaffe) and it would also make scense since it was a scout/flank unit. <---(experimental)

- Add more Tank III N to german main "armor" docs and place the Tank IV E and F1 with stubby gun to docs that have tanks only as support.
- Weaken the Panzer IV´s E/F1 armor in relation to Tank III N. In terms of armor strenght it would be: Tank IV E/F1/F2< Tank III N/Panzer IV J< Tank IV J/H with skirts.
- Panzer III would be as resistant to 57 mm AT guns as Panzer IV J.
- Panzer IV E/F1/F2 logically getting weaker in overall armor strenght, including against 57 mm, 75 and esspecially 76 mm guns.
- I am against more widespread use of these Marder III´s. They cost no CP, have deadly HE and MG, cost little and used in tag team can destroy entire tank assaults. They are potent gun platfroms with high rate of fire, even more so in stationary mode. So no, it shouldnt be available for all WH docs. Else the game becomes again lame little camp unit spam.
- About scout units i thought a lot about units and Bincoulars. But giving all scout units binoculars would mean that jeeps/schwimms, M20, Pumas and also PE "Scout cars" and those with 20 mm would be able to use bincoluars. I tested it privately on M20 and smaller vehicles but it got quite abusable. Like you can anytime activate super sight vision and move again. In coh2 with truesight system that would work, but in coh1 engine it might ruin all the fun. What i tested was "weaker" binocular abilites for vehicles and officers so that they could be used temporarily as recon units but with less spotting range than "true" spotters. But still, there would be bincoculars all over the place.

[mofetagalactica]

Wathever just change the Pz3 to Pz4 on what i said, they where pretty much the same thing with slight different stubby cannon, most of what i said is taking in mind game balance not historical.


So i would still stand for my recommendations for such docs without having to complete overhaul stats of every tank by moving them from buildings and arriving a little earlier to ease up the early - mid vehicle gameplay of WH.
I would agree with some points with what hawks said about placing "level of armor for every pz4 early vers and pz3N"
Every Pz4 stubby version should be weaker in terms of armor than pz3N, i would still leave the long barreled Pz4 F with current stats to see how it evolves in the meta (cause its starting to be used from his long sleep) in terms of armor:

Stubby Pz4's < Long barreled Pz4 < Pz3 N < Pz4 J/H

*Stubby Pz4's sharing same price than long barreled Pz4 F
*Pz3 N gets price reduction with cp unlock
*All stubby Pz4's versions available to build on the krieg barracks at assault phase

I would still like to see Pz4 F short barrel with top mg on propaganda to have more options to support your volkssturms.

To hawks:
-Marder III is super countereable with pretty much anything on the USA side even the riflemens and popping a minimal smoke can take care of this unit without much effort. (marder III is super slow and long ago with speed changes on terrain it still suffers in almost every map)

-Hard camping isn't that usefull as it used to be after Stupa/Bunkers/Ammo upkeep changes.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Without these changes WH def and propaganda players will just make a puma20 mm and straight jumping into stugIV, Pz4 J.

[Warhawks97]

I would drop early stubby Tank IV cost as well and making it earlier available. It should use the same armor as long barrled Tank IV F2 but their armor reduced. They have currently a good chance to bounce 76 mm guns. I think its a bit too crazy to have Tanks in the second building for less than 400 MP available that can bounce 76 mm guns quite well. Even the fact that a second building tank can bounce allied 75 mm guns from cromwell and shermans extremely well makes things more problematic. You can just overrun them with masses of HE loaded cheap tanks that forces allied to rush too quickly for their heaviest AT guns.

If that is solved, i would say having cheap early stubby Tank IV´s avaialble as support for Volkssturm is a nice idea. Kind of the Volkssturm gets some outdated armor stuff that helps them a bit. Like everything that isnt used by the main forces anymore is handed over to support Volkssturm.



But Marder III does simply not fit in doctrines like Bk doc and not even Volkssturm. It is a madeshift emergency unit created at the frontlines to stop allied tanks. And i think that fits only in defensive doctrine.