Kar98 Changes (5.1.8 beta)

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kwok
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Kar98 Changes (5.1.8 beta)

Postby kwok » 04 Aug 2019, 21:40

Topic to talk about the K98 changes.

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mofetagalactica
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Re: Kar98 Changes (5.1.8 beta)

Postby mofetagalactica » 04 Aug 2019, 22:51

As i already explained in the garands post wich, kar changes where made to make the macro game more balanced, core weapons such as kar and garands are just a way to help one side or another on be better at how docs are designed to.

Since one core weapon exels at far range the other one will exel at close range, balancing such weak spots will depend on how you use special support weapons and upgradables.

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Re: Kar98 Changes (5.1.8 beta)

Postby Redgaarden » 05 Aug 2019, 00:15

Feel that the kar98 is a bit too strong at close range with its 30dmg. Also makes G43 redundant since KAR has better accuracy and dmg.

And if you're making the garand weaker at long range, it doesn't make sense to make the KAR stronger. no need to buff something double tipping it off the edge.

Riflemen are quite vulnerable to most things and deal a lot of dmg, makes sense that they are glass cannons that dont scale very well lategame due to weak weapon choice and tendancy to getting squad wiped by most explosives.

I can understand the KAR98 accuracy buff, Bould I would suggest rewerting the Garands to its previous state (Or nerf it less) and streamline the kar dmg to 20-30 and keep its buffed accuracy stats.

The extra dmg that the Kars have over garands and enfields is something that has annoyed me for quite some time. And I have feel even more annoyed when that extra dmg actually makes a difference killing one more guy than usual, and changing the outcome of the battle.

So making garands 33% less accurate and Kar kill with 33% less shots is kinda big.
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Re: Kar98 Changes (5.1.8 beta)

Postby mofetagalactica » 05 Aug 2019, 06:43

Redgaarden wrote:Feel that the kar98 is a bit too strong at close range with its 30dmg. Also makes G43 redundant since KAR has better accuracy and dmg.

And if you're making the garand weaker at long range, it doesn't make sense to make the KAR stronger. no need to buff something double tipping it off the edge.

Riflemen are quite vulnerable to most things and deal a lot of dmg, makes sense that they are glass cannons that dont scale very well lategame due to weak weapon choice and tendancy to getting squad wiped by most explosives.

I can understand the KAR98 accuracy buff, Bould I would suggest rewerting the Garands to its previous state (Or nerf it less) and streamline the kar dmg to 20-30 and keep its buffed accuracy stats.

The extra dmg that the Kars have over garands and enfields is something that has annoyed me for quite some time. And I have feel even more annoyed when that extra dmg actually makes a difference killing one more guy than usual, and changing the outcome of the battle.

So making garands 33% less accurate and Kar kill with 33% less shots is kinda big.


So what do you think on making the weapon weakness more noticeable by lowering the accuracy at closer ranges so it dosn't work that well on cqb firefights.

- Changing accuracy values for Volksgrenadier's Kar98 to 0.5/0.55/0.4/0.4 (from 0.7/0.55/0.4/0.4)
- Changing accuracy values for Grenadier's Kar98 to 0.5/0.65/0.5/0.5 (from 0.8/0.65/0.5/0.5)

Something that we can also have in mind would be making the greenadiers available at assault phase i think we could try to go with that for the next update, wich would also make scense since they work more as an assaulting core unit, what do you think could try at least go on with that first?

Kar and G43 they're completely different, g43 has super op stats, its like a garand with current kar stats.

edit: Btw the other post about garands.

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Re: Kar98 Changes (5.1.8 beta)

Postby CGarr » 05 Aug 2019, 08:03

If the changes to the garands get reverted I'm fine with the new Kars, I'd rather both be strong then one of them (or both) feel weak. Rifles felt more relevant late game with the buffed garands, a nerf would revert that and I'd rather more units be relevant rather than less.

As a sidenote, I'd like to add that I'd fine with both volks and riflemen killing inf (other than elites) very quickly, as it would keep them relevant in the late game. Assuming the kar changes are implemented and the garand change is reverted so that they are back to killing really fast, I think we will have found that sweet spot for the core infantry on US and WH. In my opinion the elite inf (grens, rangers, paras, etc) should have similar killing power, they should just be tougher than the core inf along with having their extra abilities (like lowhealth model snipes or the ability to drop in anywhere)that core inf lack.

In general, late game having more horizontal improvements (simply providing additional tools to use in taking/holding ground) would be better than just having units become obsolete in terms of their utility. In saying this, I would prefer special inf from docs like luft, inf, and air to have the same killing power as the core inf (assuming the core inf happen to be equipped similarly; a volks squad with mp40's and a fallschrimjagers with mp40's should both kill at the same high speed in close range, etc). Their strengths would come from their abilities and extra durability that allows them to close the gap where core units can't or hold out against a wave of attackers that core units would be killed by).

Again, this is all just suggestions for inf changes in general that I wanted to get down in writing, I understand that they'd be implemented later rather than sooner, seeing as how the doctrine reworks seem to be the current priority. The current change to the Kars and a revert on the garand change should be good for now, just giving food for thought.

EDIT: see the first few posts on the garand thread for a continuation of this, I think Figree had the same idea but he thought it through better than I did.

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Re: Kar98 Changes (5.1.8 beta)

Postby Warhawks97 » 05 Aug 2019, 14:23

Redgaarden wrote:Feel that the kar98 is a bit too strong at close range with its 30dmg. Also makes G43 redundant since KAR has better accuracy and dmg.


The G43 average damage with its 31,5 bugged me already. Now K98 has 30 and the accuracy is as good as those of Gebis with its scoped G43. The killing power of Volks K98 is thus comparable to gebis.

And if you're making the garand weaker at long range, it doesn't make sense to make the KAR stronger. no need to buff something double tipping it off the edge.


Thats the sledghammer i mentioned.

Riflemen are quite vulnerable to most things and deal a lot of dmg, makes sense that they are glass cannons that dont scale very well lategame due to weak weapon choice and tendancy to getting squad wiped by most explosives.


yes. Even in early game a good volley of volks and a schwimm burst annihilated full squads sometimes.

I can understand the KAR98 accuracy buff, Bould I would suggest rewerting the Garands to its previous state (Or nerf it less) and streamline the kar dmg to 20-30 and keep its buffed accuracy stats.

The extra dmg that the Kars have over garands and enfields is something that has annoyed me for quite some time. And I have feel even more annoyed when that extra dmg actually makes a difference killing one more guy than usual, and changing the outcome of the battle.



Thats what you found and still find at many weapons. eg lmg42, schwimmwagen etc.


So making garands 33% less accurate and Kar kill with 33% less shots is kinda big.



Yep.


mofetagalactica wrote:So what do you think on making the weapon weakness more noticeable by lowering the accuracy at closer ranges so it dosn't work that well on cqb firefights.

- Changing accuracy values for Volksgrenadier's Kar98 to 0.5/0.55/0.4/0.4 (from 0.7/0.55/0.4/0.4)
- Changing accuracy values for Grenadier's Kar98 to 0.5/0.65/0.5/0.5 (from 0.8/0.65/0.5/0.5)

Something that we can also have in mind would be making the greenadiers available at assault phase i think we could try to go with that for the next update, wich would also make scense since they work more as an assaulting core unit, what do you think could try at least go on with that first?


The change at close range is pointless bc it never applies unless you get as close as allied grenade range. So changes here doesnt really have an impact.

What i whish in generall that all weapons have a permanent drop from the very first meter to the very last. That applies to german rifles as well as pretty much all Tank and anti tank guns. Accuracy and penetration goes down, logically, by every flown meter. So i dont like it in general that some weapons stop losing accuracy/pen power at a certain ammount of traveled distance. So i am calling for a general rework of weapons that do not lose accuracy/pen at mid-flight anymore. As for K98 it would thus look like 0.7/0.55/0.45/0.4 for Volks or 0.7/0.55/0.4/0.35....We dont need to go in these "5" point system and it could be like 0.68/0.53/0.42/0.37.

Kar and G43 they're completely different, g43 has super op stats, its like a garand with current kar stats.


The K98 change turned Volks k98 into Gebis G43 in fact. The first volley became just as deadly which in many battles is important. G43 only shoots faster currently with bigger magazin.

edit: Btw the other post about garands.


I simply repeat in a short way what i wrote in Garand topic


Axis pros (existng):

- Cheap reinforce/upkeep (volks)
- Volks are not the only core inf available.
- Real" Grens available everywehere without choosing a doctrine.

Axis possible pros:

- LMG34 available right from start (idk why it still isnt) for volks.
- Grens available after first HQ upgrade.
- HMG42 cost drop
- better cost performance ratio of its upgrades since STGS and LMG42´s were actually easy produced pressed metal and steel parts. That means that weapons like BAR would go drastically up in cost (like 70 ammo) in exchange for slight buffs in damage though.


US pros existing and possible:

- Best default rifle (best for most combat situation). Weapon upgrades like BAR go up in cost in exchange.
- Basic inf is stronger than Volks, but weaker than real Grens
- Can drop upkeep and build/reinforce cost of its rifles via supply yard in the long term.

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Re: Kar98 Changes (5.1.8 beta)

Postby mofetagalactica » 05 Aug 2019, 19:04

Warhawks97 wrote:
Axis possible pros:

- LMG34 available right from start (idk why it still isnt) for volks.
- Grens available after first HQ upgrade.
- HMG42 cost drop
- better cost performance ratio of its upgrades since STGS and LMG42´s were actually easy produced pressed metal and steel parts. That means that weapons like BAR would go drastically up in cost (like 70 ammo) in exchange for slight buffs in damage though.


US pros existing and possible:

- Best default rifle (best for most combat situation). Weapon upgrades like BAR go up in cost in exchange.
- Basic inf is stronger than Volks, but weaker than real Grens
- Can drop upkeep and build/reinforce cost of its rifles via supply yard in the long term.


Would you be ok with (having in mind current kar stats)

Axis :

-LMG34 available after battle phase
-Greens available after assault phase
-HMG42 cost drop
-LMG42 *same damage bullet than LMG34(i think it has more damage per bullet)
*less accuracy than LMG34
*buffing passive supression
*price reduction (like 65 ammo)
-STG (I tought you didn't wanted stg's everywhere but if you're suggesting this we could try reworking this upgrade into something more realistically logical)
*available after assault phase
*getting the upgrade would only get you X1 stg (can only be bought once)
*price reduction (like 40 or 45 ammo)
*also available for volks after assault phase
*unavailable for def doc (they already have g43 in the new doc rework)

Experimental:
-Def Greenadiers being the only Green squad with the hability to build sandbags/trenchs/wire.
-Blitz/Terror Greens cannot build defences (supposed to behave more as assaulting units)


US: Pretty much the same i said in the garands post (copy/paste).

- Buffing accuracy of Riflemen Garands at distant ranges to 0.17 (from 0.114)
- Buffing damage and accuracy of the bar, cost rises to 50 ammo (from 45) Cost changes to 25 after inf doc weapon reduction cost cp unlock.

-After building supply yard and upgrade it to:
LVL 1 : All rifles get vet 1.
LVL 2: Riflemen MP price reduction to 200MP (from 255)

-Getting rid of the increased mobilitation that the infantry doc has for some short of artillery smoke call in hability or something like that up for ideas about it.



Most of these suggestions are not personal opinion, im trying to mix and find a point in the middle of what everyone suggested or would be up to try for the next updates.

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Re: Kar98 Changes (5.1.8 beta)

Postby Warhawks97 » 06 Aug 2019, 13:00

mofetagalactica wrote:
Would you be ok with (having in mind current kar stats)


I dont like fixed damage values (30-30). All weapons have a min and max damage so that there is some space in terms of damage dealed per hit. So its a bit up to the "luck factor" and thats what makes BK so interessting and which feels a lot more realistic. In vcoh everything is so "flat" with exact calculations and no space for "good hits" or "bad hits". Despite that this average damage is too high for a rifle. The G43 is also that high but this weapon is limited and costs quite something. And the fact that accuracy and suff that should drop over distance doesnt drop anymore at a certain point bugs me, too. The weapon can get buffed but not the way it just got.

Axis :

-LMG34 available after battle phase
-Greens available after assault phase
-HMG42 cost drop
-LMG42 *same damage bullet than LMG34(i think it has more damage per bullet)
*less accuracy than LMG34
*buffing passive supression
*price reduction (like 65 ammo)


The german infantry was famous for its lmgs. Thats why i would like to see the lm34 to be earlier available and that only the cost should decide over getting it or not, not the tec stage.
I agree with the lmg42 part. Deadly and cheap without "cheated" stats and passive suppression buffs for them.

As for grens, i do hope we get some sort of increased tec flexibility among all factions. For WH i wish it to have the buildings and tec more similiar to vcoh. That way it would be possible to tec twice the HQ with just the first building build. I would be ok then to have grens after assault phase and then combining it with units of the third building without need of getting the second building at all.


-STG (I tought you didn't wanted stg's everywhere but if you're suggesting this we could try reworking this upgrade into something more realistically logical)
*available after assault phase
*getting the upgrade would only get you X1 stg (can only be bought once)
*price reduction (like 40 or 45 ammo)
*also available for volks after assault phase
*unavailable for def doc (they already have g43 in the new doc rework)



Thats true, they are too many everywhere. For WH they should be limited to BK doc. The stormtrooper can get quite an ammount of them.
However, in BK doc i can even consider them to be given to Volks. In original CoH Volks started with one STG. In BK doc i could imagine having also one stg for them, perhaps at a certain stage.
I just got ideas for stromtrooper but i leave them out for now.


Experimental:
-Def Greenadiers being the only Green squad with the hability to build sandbags/trenchs/wire.
-Blitz/Terror Greens cannot build defences (supposed to behave more as assaulting units)


doesnt sound bad.

US: Pretty much the same i said in the garands post (copy/paste).

- Buffing accuracy of Riflemen Garands at distant ranges to 0.17 (from 0.114)
- Buffing damage and accuracy of the bar, cost rises to 50 ammo (from 45) Cost changes to 25 after inf doc weapon reduction cost cp unlock.

-After building supply yard and upgrade it to:
LVL 1 : All rifles get vet 1.
LVL 2: Riflemen MP price reduction to 200MP (from 255)

-Getting rid of the increased mobilitation that the infantry doc has for some short of artillery smoke call in hability or something like that up for ideas about it.



Fine, but i prefer upgrades to be effective in exchange for cost rather than cheap or medium cheap for very low or low impact. For the rifles the biggest issue isnt build cost, but the fact that you get a huge bleedout due to reinforce cost (thats why all got 7 men squad rather than the 6 men) and that no doc provides any sort of combat buff. Linking buffs with supply yard is a good idea. One thing could be to have 5 more HP per model with supply yard upgrades (better food supply), or, as in vcoh, higher exp gain rate or build/reinforce cost drop or a mix of everything.

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Re: Kar98 Changes (5.1.8 beta)

Postby Redgaarden » 06 Aug 2019, 17:03

Speaking of reinforce cost. The anti tanks quads in most faction cost like 35-45mp per model, 10-20 more than a regular trooper. Could we put the cost down to like 25-30 to match what grens,riflemen cost?

And the mobilzation upgrade is pretty bad atm, it only affects Riflemen and engineers. Two units that aren't really good at combat. I dont mind removing it.
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Re: Kar98 Changes (5.1.8 beta)

Postby mofetagalactica » 07 Aug 2019, 01:25

Warhawks97 wrote:
mofetagalactica wrote:
Would you be ok with (having in mind current kar stats)


I dont like fixed damage values (30-30). All weapons have a min and max damage so that there is some space in terms of damage dealed per hit. So its a bit up to the "luck factor" and thats what makes BK so interessting and which feels a lot more realistic. In vcoh everything is so "flat" with exact calculations and no space for "good hits" or "bad hits". Despite that this average damage is too high for a rifle. The G43 is also that high but this weapon is limited and costs quite something. And the fact that accuracy and suff that should drop over distance doesnt drop anymore at a certain point bugs me, too. The weapon can get buffed but not the way it just got.



Ok, would you be up to changing the damage to something like 27-31? So there is some rng factor but still having more chances to roll 30dmg with current accuracy stats?

Also do you have any idea whats the chance of getting max or min dmg or is completely random?

About the LMG34 being earlier after what you wrote, maybe we can make it available after building krieg barracks without having to phase up, at the momment second building is available at the start. In live version the mg34 is quite delayed being available at assault phase.

Happy that you agreed on the MG42 part.

STG:
Well it would be actually logic and realistic for every normal squad to have a chance to get at least x1 stg upgrade at a certain phase.
And since it seems like the upcoming rework for terror is going to be something volk related, i guess we can also imagine seeing this x1 stg upgrade for the volks squads than just only in blitz doc.
It would be a good way to fix the stg's everywhere they will be still existing and available but in lower numbers and with lower price would be atractive enought to be a replacement option for the x2 mp40 upgrade.
The only problem we will have is find space in the UI for this upgrade on volks, since they already have 3 options wich are panzerfaust,mg34,mp40.
Could be get rid of the panzerfaust upgrade while at the same time making it available to use as a normal hability or make it a pay general update on the WH HQ increasing the cost to +15/20 ammo for the use of this hability?

I will make a summary with changes to stats and the behavior of upgrades after everyone here finish giving their opinion, so we can have an organized recommendation for the devs.


Off topic:
Red, Mobilization also lowers the cost of bazooka team to 250mp its actually a good deal when having upgraded 'zookas.
Also i saw what you posted in the garands topic about your opinion on riflemen problems in late game, a lot of peopple gave ideas about supply yard making changing something on how the core inf works can you give some stats/ideas of what kind of things would u get with supply yard?
And what would you add to replace the lost of mobilization?

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Re: Kar98 Changes (5.1.8 beta)

Postby Warhawks97 » 07 Aug 2019, 15:26

mofetagalactica wrote:
Ok, would you be up to changing the damage to something like 27-31? So there is some rng factor but still having more chances to roll 30dmg with current accuracy stats?


To give you an idea:
CW Enfield is basically the same weapon as K98. It shares same cooldown and untill now shared accuracy stats of German K98 (inf section having 0.4 accuracy max range, Commandos 0.45). They got a bigger magazin but longer reload than K98. The damage here is 19-29. K98 now got 30 and 0.45 accuracy for cheap Volk. Its average damage is above Enfields max damage (Think about it! Would you say Enfield is weakcurrently?). M1 has 20-30 and old K98 had 23-33. So axis already had highest damage on average per hit.
The G43 has 27-36 (but also insane rof and decent accuracy).

Now consider an enemie solider with 60 HP. K98 has to hit twice and its dead (when it has no cover). Enfield can be unlucky and hits the target 3 times but with only 57 damage in total which means the enemie is still alive and can jump into cover. The problem becomes bigger when facing elites with 80 HP. K98 doesnt need to hit more than 3 times (sure, cover lowers damage etc) while Enfield needs 4 hits.

You can calculate damage over time, like over a min or seconds with reload times etc included. But what many forget is the damage dealed within the first seconds. If one side can kill an enmie right away or two they then get a huge advantage, even though its average weapon damage over a minute might be less than opponents one. And thats why high accuracy/high damage or high rof lmgs are so dangerous. They deal a massive blow right away. They might take a longer reload from then on but they have tipped the balance already in that very first second.

Thats why i would advocate for a more balanced damage among weapons that are basically equal in terms of characteristics like ammunition size and so on. For rifles it should be arround 20-30 in order to prevent that one side gets the advantage of dealing a massive blow right with the first volley. If you add damage and accuracy together, then a massive initital blow is almost guranteed, like you would use a sniper that takes one men out of fight before the fight has really started (basically it is like having a sniper in the squad). From then on the other side might have better dps or dpm per weapon but has still lost bc hey already lost one weapon (man). Meanwhile opponents fire focuses on less men.

But in all debates the importance of this initial damage is simply overlooked. I tended to use Volks and Grens only with lmgs and K98 bc combined their initial damage blow at long range was quite massive, even taking out one men from enemie commando/ranger units within the first volley/bursts usually and thats already 50% of the victory in that fight.



About the LMG34 being earlier after what you wrote, maybe we can make it available after building krieg barracks without having to phase up, at the momment second building is available at the start. In live version the mg34 is quite delayed being available at assault phase.



Why should there be anything required despite the ammo? US and others can get their lmgs right away. Giving Volks the chance to buy an lmg would have been the very first step to balance Volks/Rifles. Now we changed K98 from Volks bc they were in few peoples opinion too weak but they werent weak at all once LMG34 was purchased. Now they are too elite in damage output once they get the lmg34.

Lmgs of that type like lmg34 and 42 in infantry squads was revolutionary at the outbreak of the war... with their easily deployable bipod, large magazins or even belts. The BAR was not really an "LMG". Its name is "Browning Assault Rifle" so its more an automatic rifle, first of its kind, rather than an "machine gun" which usually provide suppressive fire and cover fire.
So for me, having at least the lmg34 available right away, is just logical for axis. Its iconic for them.

There was no need for any change in any rifle stats if just the lmg34 would have been available (just as we did with mp40 to balance the grease) earlier. If i remember correctly, many complained about Rifles with BAR beating Volks. And the answer was to buff the K98 by so much so that they can beat Garands boosted by BAR? For me the logical answer would have been "oh, they beat Volks with early `Lmgs´? I will give Volks the chance to get their lmg, too."

STG:
Well it would be actually logic and realistic for every normal squad to have a chance to get at least x1 stg upgrade at a certain phase.
And since it seems like the upcoming rework for terror is going to be something volk related, i guess we can also imagine seeing this x1 stg upgrade for the volks squads than just only in blitz doc.
It would be a good way to fix the stg's everywhere they will be still existing and available but in lower numbers and with lower price would be atractive enought to be a replacement option for the x2 mp40 upgrade.
The only problem we will have is find space in the UI for this upgrade on volks, since they already have 3 options wich are panzerfaust,mg34,mp40.
Could be get rid of the panzerfaust upgrade while at the same time making it available to use as a normal hability or make it a pay general update on the WH HQ increasing the cost to +15/20 ammo for the use of this hability?


ofc, thats all an option. I would also give Faust to Volks via HQ upgrade (either automatically or special upgrade) to maintain their late game value. Rifles get sticky as global upgrade and perhaps in future cost drop/vet/exp gain rate via supply yard, Volks get fausts. In the free slot they could by one single STG for the leader in BK (and perhaps Terror doc) or, in case it becomes Volkssturm doc, only for this one. So less "STG only rambo squads" and more, well placed STG that increase the value of certain units when given in low quantities. (Even in elite assault squads i would think about a 2/3 or 3/3 balance with 2 STGs or 3 at default and 3 MP40 purchasable. Or they start only with MP40 and can purchase 2 or three stgs so that stg become less of a no brainer and more a boost for units already designed for assaulting).

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Re: Kar98 Changes (5.1.8 beta)

Postby mofetagalactica » 07 Aug 2019, 18:00

Volks actual stats:
0.7/0.55/0.4/0.4 (from 0.7/0.55/0.35/0.35).
30 dmg (from 23-33).

Sorry, but having such minimum damage for a slow fire and magazine makes the riflemens way stronger and fearless so they easily get closer to use his M1 garands at medium range without taking any loss in the process and it was the same when you had greenadiers that lost againts riflemen garands.
I would still be up to go for an rng factor instead of flat 30, but the minimum damage would be to be higher than old stats so there is at least an avrg of 30 damage and if the first volley is such a problem we can lower the accuracy of distant range by a bit.

Enfields aren't bad thats true, but mostly because they're not fighting infantry with default semi-auto rifles. Everyone would also say shit about them if volks magically spawned with g43's lol.

And i also think that enfields should go for the same process that the kar had, by rising up minimum and max damage to get an avrg more close to 30.

¿ Why don't you just write detailed stats on rifles with strengths and weaknesses without putting lmg's in the middle?


Also about the MG34 you can't really make it available that early because no-one will have the ammo to pay up for it, its not that cheap compared to a bar. And since it seems that you haven't been playing that much pvp on the beta, you're also forgotting that the new docs habilities will suck up a lot of your ammo, and you're kinda forced to utilize it to squish the doc to his max capabilities with such example being the new blitz doctrine.

All i understand from you is that you want to go all the way back where your garands are still beating volks at any range and in some cases even grenadiers when getting at medium/far range.
But somehow you want peopple to get early MG34's without having in mind their cost , without the possibility to even get it on a High res game from the start, not even having in mind how much ammo your mortar is going to suck you up, or even your 37mm AT with HE. You seriously will think that going for early mg34 will be cost effective or you also want to make it cheap like the idea we had with the mg42 ?
Don't be stubborn and accept a point in the middle even if you dont like how the garands perform for the sake of balance, there has been a shit ton of cases in WW2 where garands have to be nerfed compared to real life.
I love the garand and i would also like to see it perform in game like it is in real life but i know they will be op, i know they should have the same damage and accuracy than any kar with double the rof.

So in summary can you write detailed stats of Kar98,M1 Garand and Enfields? Without making the garands too op?

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Re: Kar98 Changes (5.1.8 beta)

Postby Warhawks97 » 07 Aug 2019, 23:37

mofetagalactica wrote:Volks actual stats:
0.7/0.55/0.4/0.4 (from 0.7/0.55/0.35/0.35).
30 dmg (from 23-33).

Sorry, but having such minimum damage for a slow fire and magazine makes the riflemens way stronger and fearless so they easily get closer to use his M1 garands at medium range without taking any loss in the process and it was the same when you had greenadiers that lost againts riflemen garands.
I would still be up to go for an rng factor instead of flat 30, but the minimum damage would be to be higher than old stats so there is at least an avrg of 30 damage and if the first volley is such a problem we can lower the accuracy of distant range by a bit.

Enfields aren't bad thats true, but mostly because they're not fighting infantry with default semi-auto rifles.


Sorry, i dont get it. Enfield and K98 share so far same cooldown and accuracy (Grens being even as good as Commandos). But K98 is "weak" with 23-33 damage and needs a buff to 30 while Enfield "isnt that bad" when it only has 19-29 damage? Thats beyond me.

IN most scenarios, unless i dropped smoke, i lost 1-2 riflemen whenever i tried to close in, even when i only tried to jump from one cover to a cover slightly closer.

So tell me again: How can Enfield with 19-29 damage with same cooldown and very smiliar accuracy stats (in fact grens top them all) is ok while K98 needs a mega buff to 30 damage in average.

Everyone would also say shit about them if volks magically spawned with g43's lol.

G43 are far superior to M1. They have much higher damage, quicker reload (fastest of all rifles) and pretty good accuracy (0.25) and quite high rof. So its not the same as M1.

And i also think that enfields should go for the same process that the kar had, by rising up minimum and max damage to get an avrg more close to 30.


And i wouldnt do so. These squads would become far too much killer units by using their default equipment. I prefer some longer firefights and combined arms rather than "Put a unit behind green cover and let them shoot turkeys". People will just start throwing arty at any green cover again before trying to achieve a victroy via tactics and movment simply bc the areas arround rifle units would become a denial zone.



¿ Why don't you just write detailed stats on rifles with strengths and weaknesses without putting lmg's in the middle?

My pc isnt working where i got corsix. But i can say that Enfield and K98 are very close or in case of commandos/gren identical in terms of accuracy.

Also about the MG34 you can't really make it available that early because no-one will have the ammo to pay up for it, its not that cheap compared to a bar. And since it seems that you haven't been playing that much pvp on the beta, you're also forgotting that the new docs habilities will suck up a lot of your ammo, and you're kinda forced to utilize it to squish the doc to his max capabilities with such example being the new blitz doctrine.


And thats why i said that axis has poorer basic rifles, but better and more cost effective upgrades. The BAR damage would go from 12-17 to 16-20 and its cost up to 70 ammo or so. Problem solved.


All i understand from you is that you want to go all the way back where your garands are still beating volks at any range and in some cases even grenadiers when getting at medium/far range.


Yes. Volks are cheaper and are just a gap filler before grens come unlike Rifles. Furthermore up untill now Rifles dont have any combat buff unlike volks that get boosted in def and probably future terror doc.
Furthermore Volks will become, esspecially with def doc/terror boost, a 100% elite unit with these K98 stats and deadly lmg34. Meanwhile Rifles will struggle even more vs late game inf as they do already (nerfed Garand and one BAR gone). We are ruining the balance with all other units and late game only for the sake of this Volks/Rifle 1 vs 1 comparision happening in the first min of a game.

As WH ialso always feel like that i can support my Volks much better with pak HE rounds, deadly bike MG34 that is much better than jeeps 1919, sandbags and early 81 mm mortar. And all the other advantages like cheap cost and numbers.

So yeah, you observed it totally right. Volks<Rifle< Grens (in Standard configuration)

In exchange for that:
-BAR cost goes up to 70 (damage goes to 16-20). So US wouldnt take advantage of early cheap BAR anymore.
-LMG34 can be purchased right away. No tec required.
-Volks in BK and or new terror doc can later buy one single STG (or leader gets one once doc is choosed)
- HMG42 gets cheaper
- Grens perhaps getting cheaper a bit

Thats a much more effective way to improve Volks early game strenght without making them OP in late game if you get my point.

But somehow you want peopple to get early MG34's without having in mind their cost , without the possibility to even get it on a High res game from the start, not even having in mind how much ammo your mortar is going to suck you up, or even your 37mm AT with HE. You seriously will think that going for early mg34 will be cost effective or you also want to make it cheap like the idea we had with the mg42 ?


And if BAR would cost almost the same, all would be fine. And in case you use 37 mm HE rounds against rifles, you dont have to worry about them anymore anyways. I mean one shot of 37 mm HE vs any early inf and they are dead anyways. And if you dont need to use the HE, you can get lmg34 quite early. And Mortar dont cost ammo anymore to build them.

Don't be stubborn and accept a point in the middle even if you dont like how the garands perform for the sake of balance, there has been a shit ton of cases in WW2 where garands have to be nerfed compared to real life.


Buffing K98 into the endless is stubborn. Not everything is about Rifle squad. These K98 stats combined with lmg34 and the bonuses from def or terror doc will turn them into an real elite unit. The def doc boost often enough turns them into zombies already and now their weapon stats are better than old Grens k98 stats. And on top an LMG34. You ruin the entire game and balance with other units just for the sake of "better balance" (which in my opinion isnt even true) in the first minute of the game. The Volks hold advantages in many other areas such as better upgrades, cheaper upkeek/reinforce cost the better support they can enjoy.

I love the garand and i would also like to see it perform in game like it is in real life but i know they will be op, i know they should have the same damage and accuracy than any kar with double the rof.


They feel like it and i dont consider them OP. They perform a bit better than volks K98, and? They cost more. They dont enjoy any doctrinal boost unlike volks, dont have sandbags like volks, dont have an AT gun that supports them with HE, dont have a unit like bike/schwimm staying behind them (jeeps damage is far lower).
Volks are very good in holding key areas. Survive the first wave with sandbags, HMG42 or Pak HE and you would be close on getting a LMG34.

So in summary can you write detailed stats of Kar98,M1 Garand and Enfields? Without making the garands too op?


They are strong, not OP. OP would mean they would win anytime, even when used foolishly. Thats not the case. Their kill record isnt much different than that of Volks/enfields etc. Its fine that they are strong. The only unfairness i see is that Rifles can benefit a lot from cheap 45 ammo BAR available from start. Fix that issue and most issues would be solved.

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Re: Kar98 Changes (5.1.8 beta)

Postby mofetagalactica » 08 Aug 2019, 03:19

Ok lets find the way around it, and add changes to this summary:

Rifles

Bolt action rifle standarization:
Kar98 and Enfield will share same cooldown
Kar98 and Enfield damage 20-30 (from 23-33 and 19-29)
Kar98 and Enfield magazine size of 7-8 (RL kar98 has 5 while Enfield has 10, so kinda a point between)

Accuracy changes for basic bolt action infantry:
Kar98 Volks: 0.7/0.55/0.4/0.38 (from 0.7/0.55/0.4/0.4)
Kar98 Grens: 0.8/0.65/0.45/0.45 (from 0.8/0.65/0.5/0.5)
Kar98 Stoorms: 0.8/0.65/0.45/0.45
Enfield Inf section: 0.7/0.55/0.4/0.38
Enfield Comandos: 0.8/0.65/0.45/0.45

Garands get their distant accuracy reverted to 0.17 (from 0.114)

Weapon upgrades:

LMG's:

MG34
-Available from the start
-Price drops to 55/50 ammo

MG42
-HMG42 team price reduction
-Weapon upgrade price drops to 45 ammo
-Will share same bullet damage than MG34
-Less accuracy than MG34
-More Rof than MG34

BAR
-Damage buff
-Accuracy buff
-Cost rises to 65 ammo (Drops to 40 ammo after weapon price reduction upgrade)
-Upgrade gives you x1 bar can only be bought once

Automatic Rifles

STG44
-Price reduced to 40 ammo
-Available for Volks and Grens (Volksstrum/Terror and Blitzkrieg) at assault phase
-Upgrade will only give you x1 stg, can be only bought once on grens and volks.
-Stoorms already spawn with 1 stg and its not affected by this limit.

Semi auto Rifles

G43
-Ammo cost drops to 30
-Double rof than a kar98
-Damage changed to 20-30
-Same accuracy tables than Garands
-Magazine clip of 10
-Upgrade gives you x2 Ghewers
Last edited by mofetagalactica on 08 Aug 2019, 04:43, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Kar98 Changes (5.1.8 beta)

Postby Tiger1996 » 08 Aug 2019, 04:00

Regarding the suggested changes above...
I don't want to see any further STG44 limitations.

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Re: Kar98 Changes (5.1.8 beta)

Postby mofetagalactica » 08 Aug 2019, 04:51

Tiger1996 wrote:Regarding the suggested changes above...
I don't want to see any further STG44 limitations.


Storms would not get affected by this limitation, volks will get a general upgrade on WH HQ to get their panzerfaust hability usable at any momment so we make space on the UI for STG's on them, with a cheaper price mixing one pair of mp40 and one stg , or just going for the cheaper lmg's.
STG's would be seen used more on more units but in less numbers when upgraded.

Or would u preffer making the stgs for greens and storms only with higher ammo price and no limitations?

And what are your thoughts about the other changes beside stg's.

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Re: Kar98 Changes (5.1.8 beta)

Postby Warhawks97 » 08 Aug 2019, 11:21

mofetagalactica wrote:
Rifles

Bolt action rifle standarization:
Kar98 and Enfield will share same cooldown
Kar98 and Enfield damage 20-30 (from 23-33 and 19-29)
Kar98 and Enfield magazine size of 7-8 (RL kar98 has 5 while Enfield has 10, so kinda a point between)


All weapons used by infantry in BK mod use their realistic Rate of fire and magazin size (unlike vcoh where everything is set random). Like BAR has 20 round clip, Bren 30, lmg 34/42 their 50 ammo drum etc. Only FG42 uses (probably by accident) a 30 round clip instead of its 20.
So i would like to keep the Enfield with 10 rounds and K98 with 5 rounds. K98 reloads faster in return. Enfield reloads slowest. So thats kinda ok, given also the fact that Enfield squad often operates alone due to its cost.

Accuracy changes for basic bolt action infantry:
Kar98 Volks: 0.7/0.55/0.4/0.38 (from 0.7/0.55/0.4/0.4)
Kar98 Grens: 0.8/0.65/0.45/0.45 (from 0.8/0.65/0.5/0.5)
Kar98 Stoorms: 0.8/0.65/0.45/0.45
Enfield Inf section: 0.7/0.55/0.4/0.38
Enfield Comandos: 0.8/0.65/0.45/0.45


The CW inf section had 0.45/0.4 originally. Thats ok. They cost lot more than Volks but dont have more health. Grens have a huge HP bonus and cost currently even less than inf section but is later available therefore. If avalability of grens etc changes, the balance with CW inf section needs to be maintained. But thats for the future as huge changes for CW are comming apparently so i am not suggesting too much here.


Weapon upgrades:

LMG's:

MG34
-Available from the start
-Price drops to 55/50 ammo

MG42
-HMG42 team price reduction
-Weapon upgrade price drops to 45 ammo
-Will share same bullet damage than MG34
-Less accuracy than MG34
-More Rof than MG34


The cost of 60 for lmg 34 is quite ok. We dont want to inflate the cost here.

And the lmg 42 would be ok to stay at roughly the same cost as lmg34. Currently they share same accuracy values which perhaps can be changed. Also we dont know about the changes of suppressive power of lmgs in future.

BAR
-Damage buff
-Accuracy buff
-Cost rises to 65 ammo (Drops to 40 ammo after weapon price reduction upgrade)
-Upgrade gives you x1 bar can only be bought once



Accuracy is fine as it is. About the second BAR we need to see how the changes work out. Perhaps there will be some sort of second special rifle squad. But damage and cost increase should make it.

Automatic Rifles

STG44
-Price reduced to 40 ammo
-Available for Volks and Grens (Volksstrum/Terror and Blitzkrieg) at assault phase
-Upgrade will only give you x1 stg, can be only bought once on grens and volks.
-Stoorms already spawn with 1 stg and its not affected by this limit.


I am happy not to have STGs for grens anymore.
My favorit solution would be when Volks can buy one single STG in BK and perhaps volkssturm doc. In Volkssturm they could even get a single one once the doc is choosen or a certain upgrade unlocked. If the weapon needs to be purchased, Panzerfaust has to become a global unlock or unlock once a certain tec is reached. Its currently too expensive anyway with 50 ammo for unlock and 35 for each use.
The single STG should cost 20 ammo. The double packs for Stormtrooper and PE assault grens 40 ammo.


But grens shouldnt get them again.
Why? Bc why should they? They have nice Rifles, Panzerschreck, LMG42, MP40, G43, various types of grenades in each doc, doctrinal buffs (passive and active such as BK ability, def doc def training and "for the fatherland" and in terror they probably maintain the buffs they have now). They would again become no brainer "can do and have everything units". So The STG´s would help volks to stay usefull for later stages. In BK it would boost the early stage assault capabilties, in Volkssturm/Propaganda doctrine Volksgrens and Volkssturm units probably become core units so they need decent equipment. Like Volkssturm getting G43´s and Volks a single STG. That among probably doctrinal assault and combat boosts will make them quite deadly in combo while normal Grens will fill more a supportive role there.

Thus the Grens should stay with - depending on doctrine- LMG42, Panzerschreck, MP40 and G43´s.


Semi auto Rifles

G43
-Ammo cost drops to 30
-Double rof than a kar98
-Damage changed to 20-30
-Same accuracy tables than Garands
-Magazine clip of 10
-Upgrade gives you x2 Ghewers



25 ammo or even just 20. When damage gets "standardized" to 20-30.

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Re: Kar98 Changes (5.1.8 beta)

Postby Black Panther » 08 Aug 2019, 14:47

Seeing STG in Volks squad is my dream, keep it on your minds, devs

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Re: Kar98 Changes (5.1.8 beta)

Postby CGarr » 08 Aug 2019, 23:44

I agree with Warhawk's last changes to Figree's summary, although I think the Brit changes can wait. As much as I want to be able to play as better balanced brits, we've still got AB and terror doc reworks in progress so I'd rather see efforts being put into US and WH right now so any complete overhauls to brits and PE could come sooner.

For the STG's, I think volks having a single one in place of the faust and moving faust upgrade to HQ would be the best bet, I didn't like having them on grens since grens are still technically a core unit, just with elite stats. Grens could take one for free but having multiple on every squad was getting old, the mp40's are a welcome sight. Storms still have them so its not like they're not in the game and I'm sure the terror rework will have them in some form.

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Re: Kar98 Changes (5.1.8 beta)

Postby kwok » 09 Aug 2019, 00:05

Repost warning

Okay, this isn’t an opinion of mine this is more of a warning/caution. The nature of suggestions from this post and the other weapon related post is adding general buffs to basic infantry and fully available weaponry. In effect this is buffing base units and devaluing elite units. I’m not saying this is wrong but it’s a major design change of how tiering works. Is this something not just you all but the community is comfortable with? We are talking about situations where volks are starting to become comparable to rangers and riflemen starting to become comparable to stormtroopers. Have you thought about THOSE balances? the devs have definitely made poor choices in balance changes before. And those changes are very slight changes where one value is tweaked. Learn from those mistakes when thinking of changes. This thread is proposing MANY changes... the volatility of these suggestions is huge, potentially more than doctrine changes because these are actually unit performance changes rather than structural. Players will expect a particular behavior of units after years of experience and you’re proposing to change that.

This is just advice coming from people who have dealt with a community of complainers before.

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Re: Kar98 Changes (5.1.8 beta)

Postby CGarr » 09 Aug 2019, 00:42

kwok wrote:Repost warning


Replied in the garand topic, although I do make mention to the weapon upgrade changes mentioned here.

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Re: Kar98 Changes (5.1.8 beta)

Postby Warhawks97 » 09 Aug 2019, 13:00

kwok wrote:
Okay, this isn’t an opinion of mine this is more of a warning/caution. The nature of suggestions from this post and the other weapon related post is adding general buffs to basic infantry and fully available weaponry. In effect this is buffing base units and devaluing elite units. I’m not saying this is wrong but it’s a major design change of how tiering works. Is this something not just you all but the community is comfortable with? We are talking about situations where volks are starting to become comparable to rangers and riflemen starting to become comparable to stormtroopers. Have you thought about THOSE balances?


Wtf? Volks with lmg34 managed to kill rangers even in the past. When you veted them early game and added officer they managed to shred approaching SAS and other close range units like AB squads. And with Mp40 you could shred un-boosted sten commandos in close combat. Happend million times.
And now YOU guys gave the this massive K98 buff to them. What you think happens now in late game with Volks with Elite K98 stats and powerfull lmg34? Right, they will be able to shred rangers and any kind of elites. I kept saying this the whole time and warned about this brutal K98 stats in combo with lmg34 and doctrinal unit boosts.

I suggested to give lmg34 a bit earlier and cheaper to balance vs early Rifles/BAR without changing their performance in late game vs the elites.
And now you are blaming us that we would enable them to beat elites? Thats hilarious.

the devs have definitely made poor choices in balance changes before. And those changes are very slight changes where one value is tweaked.


Yeah, "one" tweak but that changes everything. Volks with this k98 and lmg will shred late game elites for sure, esspecially with bonuses from the doctrines. I only want to make lmg34 earlier available for bit lower cost so that we can balance them vs early Rifles without breaking balance vs late game inf.

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Re: Kar98 Changes (5.1.8 beta)

Postby kwok » 09 Aug 2019, 17:09

Again, reposted.

It wasn’t our suggestion. We take suggestions from players who test. Not players who spend all day writing large blocks of text but don’t actually play. Almost all devs were actually against the change. I might even have the screenshots to prove this. But we take the community as seriously as we can, especially those who try to contribute.

This is why we TEST. It’s a beta experiment for a reason. And based on this thread, clearly it’s not ALL that bad. There are still some players that welcomed the change but needs tweaks. I’d rather read through those than a player’s 5000 paragraph posts who never even played the game. Suggest all you want Warhawks, we probably won’t take any of the suggestions.

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Re: Kar98 Changes (5.1.8 beta)

Postby CGarr » 12 Aug 2019, 05:21

@Kwok, I agree with you on the testing bit but his suggested additions to Figree's summary weren't that unreasonable, he pretty much just agreed with everything that was said with a couple minor alterations to err on the side of caution. I get where you're coming from but I think you're being a bit hard on him.

@Hawks, I understand your sentiments for a lot of things you said with those last couple of replies but calm down a bit, the Kar changes really aren't that bad and if the changes summarized here and in the garand thread are implemented, things should even out. Using the performance of CW and PE units throws a lot of unnecessary extra variables in and they haven't really been touched with the recent reworks, so things will obviously be skewed. Sure, things might've performed against each other in the distant past but a lot of changes have been made since then that change that, so it'd be better to make comparisons between the most recent iterations of units that have been affected by said changes.


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