5.1.8 beta (Doctrine rework, update 3)

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MarKr
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5.1.8 beta (Doctrine rework, update 3)

Postby MarKr » 08 Jul 2019, 21:23

Hello to all of you!

Within the next few hours we'll be bringing you another update for the beta. This one does not contain the doctrinal rework of Terror doctrine yet (we're still working on that) but it brings fixes and adjustments based on the feedback you provided. Without any further adue:

Early Game Infantry Balance
- HEAT rifle grenades will no longer deal too much damage to Geschützwagen and Marder III (damage modifier changed from x5 to x2)
- Removed Suppression ability from Riflemen squad
- Riflemen squad can upgrade BAR only once
- Lowered accuracy of Riflemen Garands at distant ranges to 0.114 (from 0.17)
- 7 men Riflemen squad is no longer available (this is temporal and will be re-introduced when we get to adjusting commander infantry)
- Changed accuracy values for Volksgrenadier's Kar98 to 0.7/0.55/0.4/0.4 (from 0.7/0.55/0.35/0.35)
- Changed accuracy values for Grenadier's Kar98 to 0.8/0.65/0.5/0.5 (from 0.8/0.65/0.45/0.45)
- Changed damage of Volksgrenadier's and Grenadier's Kar98 to 30-30 (from 23-33)
- Def doc Pioneers and BK doc Grenadiers can now buy MP40 upgrades for 25 ammunition but get only 2xMP40 (possible to upgrade 2x)

A large disclaimer to mention before going into the details of changes is that many of the following are EXTREMELY EXPERIMENTAL. Balance changes to the early game have snowballing effects to the mid/late game, therefore we expect these changes to cause a huge volatile shift in meta. Please try to keep that in mind when testing and we look forward to hearing your thoughts.
A little history as to why these changes were made. Multiple patches ago, we improved the power of garands as a way to make riflemen more than just meat shield units. The original intent of the garand fixes was to make riflemen more suppression oriented while rangers are the true killer marksmen. The unintended effects was the riflemen became easily spammable and extremely lethal units at all ranges with a roughly 80-90% “win chance” against a comparable unit like volks at close and medium range and a 45% “win chance” at long range. Upon feedback from the community, we didn’t want to revert back to the original intent but keep the idea that garands SHOULD be lethal but balanced in such a way that they would not be so dominant against Kar98s. Tweaks were made to each weapon in order to have a better “50-50% chance to win” at the med-long range with the volks doing better at the long range while rifles maintain their dominance at medium-short range.
In addition to weapon adjustments, we removed the 7man rifle squad temporarily because of its overwhelming impact on the early game. It is a unit that forgoes build time and order requirements, giving USA huge advantages in timing and opening unit choice which often heavily tips the chances of US players of winning the game within the first 5 minutes of a game. The squad won’t go away; as further reworks are done we will try to find a new home for the unique unit where it does not power spike US players at such a critical moment of the game.
Given the changes to Riflemen's Garands and Kar98 rifles, we decided to keep the MP40 upgrade for Grenadiers in Blitzkrieg doctrine. Gren's basic weapons are more effective at longer ranges, can be further supported by LMG which provides solid buff at any range and for fending off rushing infantry you can buy the MP40 which provides good short range firepower.
We look forward to hearing how players adapt to these changes and we will be open to hearing your endless wave of complai-...aherm sorry...feedback.

Def Doc Emplacements
- Bunker cost reduced to 350MP (from 550MP)
- Cost of Pantherturm lowered to 450MP 45F (from 500MP 60F)
- 75mm PaK40 and 88mm PaK43 emplacements removed
- Defensive Doctrine can now build an "empty" emplacement which can be garrisoned by different types of guns from the 28mm Halftrack
In attempts to make defenses require more skill to use instead of “build and forget”, we previously made it so defenses appeared neutral on build. Given this is a net nerf, price adjustments were made to keep up the emplacements viable.
An additional very experimental feature is the ability to create blank emplacements and fill them with a unit of your choice. To use this, use your pioneers to build the emplacement and the defense doc specific 28mm halftrack to place an AT gun or support gun into the emplacement. The micro added to building emplacements will be rewarded with flexibility and speed.

Tank Destroyer Changes
- Changed Jagdpanzer IV L48 armor type to "tp_armour_axis_jagdpanzeriv" (from Hetzer type)
- Removed Received Accuracy and Received Penetration modifiers from Jagdpanzer IV L48
- Changed Jagdpanzer IV L70(A) armor type to "tp_armour_axis_jagdpanzeriv_l70" (from Hetzer type)
- Removed Received Accuracy and Received Penetration modifiers from Jagdpanzer IV L70

The Axis tank destroyers always had unusual and disorganized properties. Most of these changes are clean up but naturally have some slight performance impacts. Please test the general durability and viability of the tank destroyers post these changes. It is a net slight nerf, but should not be significantly noticeable. These changes will most likely impact PE down the road.

Bug Fixes
- Fixed a bug which made Weapon Mass Production upgrade unavailable for Infantry Company
- Naked 88mm Flak36 in Defensive Doctrine can now be properly built when you get the corresponding unlock
- Added a missing teardown time to emplaced 75mm PaK40
- When Elefant uses its ALRS it needs to turn to face the target now
- Corrected wrong description on Elefant's ALRS, now correctly states it requires Veterancy Level 2
- Corrected Hummel Offmap Barrage Ability description (used descriptions of a different ability)
- 28mm Halftrack in Defensive Doctrine now mentions in its description that it provides a construction speed buff to Pioneers when near them
- 28mm Halftrack crew now consists of Pioneers (only a visual change)
- Fortify Perimeter will only allow to base buildings fire their MGs when the buildings are fully built
- 105mm field howitzers no longer have unit limit of 2

There were more suggestions and requests for changes and not all of them are in here but they are still considered and may come later down the road.

We hope you all enjoy your summer time and will still find some time to test these changes :)
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The New BK Champion
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Re: 5.1.8 beta (Doctrine rework, update 3)

Postby The New BK Champion » 09 Jul 2019, 11:42

"Endless wave of complain" - maybe stop changing literally every aspect of the game just for once and let us enjoy what we already have? Are you still doing this for anyone but yourself?

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Re: 5.1.8 beta (Doctrine rework, update 3)

Postby Erich » 09 Jul 2019, 20:32

The New BK Champion wrote:"Endless wave of complain" - maybe stop changing literally every aspect of the game just for once and let us enjoy what we already have? Are you still doing this for anyone but yourself?




Cool

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Re: 5.1.8 beta (Doctrine rework, update 3)

Postby kwok » 09 Jul 2019, 20:41

The New BK Champion wrote:"Endless wave of complain" - maybe stop changing literally every aspect of the game just for once and let us enjoy what we already have? Are you still doing this for anyone but yourself?


These were changed proposed by players or based on player complaints. For every group of players who want one thing, others like you will complain.

We literally (including me nowadays... sadly...) don’t even play the game so why would we do it for ourselves?

Alternatively we could give you old files and versions of Bk Yao you can keep playing that. But when a majority of players want a change, we won’t disregard those thoughts because a few players prefer the game “as is”.

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Re: 5.1.8 beta (Doctrine rework, update 3)

Postby The New BK Champion » 10 Jul 2019, 02:15

Oh yeah I can see all those players who wanted dobule bar upgrade removed...

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Re: 5.1.8 beta (Doctrine rework, update 3)

Postby Black Panther » 10 Jul 2019, 08:11

The New BK Champion wrote:Oh yeah I can see all those players who wanted dobule bar upgrade removed...

It was me, so all the things that going on here is justificated.

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Re: 5.1.8 beta (Doctrine rework, update 3)

Postby MarKr » 10 Jul 2019, 11:41

Not every change is a result of a direct request. People complained that Riflemen can wipe the floor with Axis Kar98-using infantry with their basic Garands even at longer ranges. The original intend of the Garand changes was to give them advantage at shorter ranges but Kar98s should have advantage at longer ranges (so for Riflemen the combat "sweet spot" would be mid-to-short range, where they would most likely win, while unupgraded Axis infantry should have their "sweet spot" at mid-to-long range where they would be most likely to win). It did not work as intended because, according to reports, Garands would win fairly often even at longer ranges. This issue was further affected by the BARs. That upgrade was in the game because the Riflemen used to be (without weapon upgrades) a really crappy unit in the past and if you wanted to stand some chance against Axis infantry, you needed the BARs to increase the firepower of the squad - becasue the BARs were sort of needed, the upgrade cost was also set relatively low so that they would be affordable. Then the basic performance of Riflemen was increased through Garand changes but the BARs remained unchanged because of that the BARs could further boost the performance of Riflemen to unintended levels where they could sucessfully go against Axis elites - all of that for basic infantry that is available in every doctrine, even AB which has their own specilized infantry and also in Armor doc where infantry is not meant to be very strong.
So all the changes to Kar98s, Riflemen Garand accuracy and BARs are intertwined.
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Re: 5.1.8 beta (Doctrine rework, update 3)

Postby Warhawks97 » 10 Jul 2019, 13:43

oh, wow, congrats. You just made the Volks K98 rifle superior to british enfield squad rifle and the Grens K98 superior to Enfield commandos Rifle. I mean jeez, 40% basic accuracy at max range for the most basic inf? Whatever squad you caught during move from one cover to another, the first volley will drain like 30-40% of its total HP, perhaps even killing one right away. That just sucks. They arent snipers. Grens literally become snipers now.

Meanwhile the Garand becomes as accurate as an stg at distant range which is still all over the place available.

I dont know where this 80-90% win chance shit comes from. Ive seen Rifle squads having issues taking on Pio squads at max range when both got sandbags or some cover and you keep to ignore that the volks can give themselves a big advantage with sandbags. You can deploy them anywhere due to sandbags while rifle squads are bound on map terrain in many situations.

And spamable? There is nothing more spamable than volks currently. Cheap upkeep and reinforce cost. They are the best meatshields available atm and also extremely capable damage dealer at max range. You can just spam volks, giving some mp40 to charge, others lmg34 as damage dealer from second line.

You can try spamming rifles early game, i tell you you wont last long bc thats what i kept trying. Reinforce cost and upkeep delays vehicle stage by too much.

Also 30-30 damage for K98? are you kidding me? Thats an insane buff.

And you remove the second BAR although being worst of all lmgs? It got lowest rof and lowest damage per bullet with 12-17 damage. Lmg 34 has 16-20 and lmg42 has even something like 18-22 per bullet and a higher rof than two BAR combined. Whats that shit? Can we then at least get the standard damage for BAR of 16-20 like M1919 and lmg34 has it?
Last edited by Warhawks97 on 10 Jul 2019, 14:07, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: 5.1.8 beta (Doctrine rework, update 3)

Postby kwok » 10 Jul 2019, 13:45

I’ll get our numbers for the garands vs k98s. You know my calculators...
We backed it up and tested them as well. As far as we have tested they are behaving as intended. Will wait for replays to prove otherwise.

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Re: 5.1.8 beta (Doctrine rework, update 3)

Postby Warhawks97 » 10 Jul 2019, 13:47

kwok wrote:I’ll get our numbers for the garands vs k98s. You know my calculators...
We backed it up and tested them as well. As far as we have tested they are behaving as intended. Will wait for replays to prove otherwise.



pls test volks vs enfield squad and grens vs enfield commandos. They got similiar health pool but axis the better rifle with more damage and better accuracy. I hope you tested these scenarios as well.

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Re: 5.1.8 beta (Doctrine rework, update 3)

Postby kwok » 10 Jul 2019, 13:49

nope, british reworks come later as we've said multiple times.

we made a decision: either buff k98's or nerf garands. it had to be one or the other. this was argued over quite often. we went with one decision over the other. and that's it. if other weapons need to get tweaked to stay competitive, then we may do that down the road. if what you're saying is the k98 is too buffed, then we bring it back down but also bring down the garands so they keep their relative performance.

and one more thing. again... have you tried the patch...?

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Re: 5.1.8 beta (Doctrine rework, update 3)

Postby Warhawks97 » 10 Jul 2019, 14:01

kwok wrote:nope, british reworks come later as we've said multiple times.



I see, its going to be super huge then. I hope we wont get into a rifle accuracy contest between brits and Axis which would turn basic rifles into the weapon of choice due their massive killing power at distant. You shouldnt underestimate the impact of the first volley fired during a rifle engagment. And here, accuracy and bullet damage is a big factor.

Anyway, if I get my pc working again, i will do some testing.


One thing that makes we wonder is why not a single topic was made about the Garand or BAR here in Forum first. You say that some people said or complained about "xy" but they didnt do it here. But still changes got made. But I and others get told that we shall get to the forum first when we have issues or suggestions. Is there any kind of V.I.P. list of players that can simply bypass any debate to get their wishes introduced?

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Re: 5.1.8 beta (Doctrine rework, update 3)

Postby kwok » 10 Jul 2019, 14:18

Warhawks97 wrote:One thing that makes we wonder is why not a single topic was made about the Garand or BAR here in Forum first. You say that some people said or complained about "xy" but they didnt do it here. But still changes got made. But I and others get told that we shall get to the forum first when we have issues or suggestions. Is there any kind of V.I.P. list of players that can simply bypass any debate to get their wishes introduced?


in short, yes. they're called reliable testers instead of VIP though. and they dont bypass debate. they get debated really hard against from the devs.

in response directly to the rifles, yes many in game comments and on steam were made. also, the replays we've received showed double bar spamming 7-man riflemen was like 80% of the openings by players, effective at almost all varieties of openings made by WM possible, including an opening intended to prevent rifle spams. as mentioned quite trasnparently and repeatedly... send replays. we watch them and make most decisions from there.

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Re: 5.1.8 beta (Doctrine rework, update 3)

Postby MenciusMoldbug » 10 Jul 2019, 17:49

This might be a good time to take a look at the standard (not Captain Special) Riflemen reinforce cost which is higher than Volks; who although costing more for the entire squad are pretty cheap to reinforce (22 for Volks vs 25 for Riflemen). This is because most units are still using their VCoH modifiers for reinforce values so while Riflemen were adjusted to have their reinforce cost match 6 man (270 > 27) — The Volks are cheaper because their reinforce cost value was adjusted for 5 man (280 > 28).

So I would really, really like it if the Riflemen reinforce cost modifier went to 0.5 like it is for all squads instead of staying at the VCoH value of 0.6. If that will cause balance problems maybe have the reinforce cost lowered with supply yard upgrades (remember how supply yard upgrades increased veterancy gains for Riflemen). Really anything that makes the reinforce cost of Riflemen not so high in comparison to all other squads of comparable MP price.

EDIT: Looking through corsix, it seems like PE's kar98k's did not change. So they are still using old values and since normal Pgren's shared the same rifle stats as the old volks; they now have worse stats than the new volk kar98k's (and old damage values too). Assault Grenadiers are also using their old kar98k_elite stats which are now worse than the new Grenadier ones.

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Re: 5.1.8 beta (Doctrine rework, update 3)

Postby Warhawks97 » 10 Jul 2019, 19:36

MenciusMoldbug wrote:This might be a good time to take a look at the standard (not Captain Special) Riflemen reinforce cost which is higher than Volks; who although costing more for the entire squad are pretty cheap to reinforce (22 for Volks vs 25 for Riflemen). This is because most units are still using their VCoH modifiers for reinforce values so while Riflemen were adjusted to have their reinforce cost match 6 man (270 > 27) — The Volks are cheaper because their reinforce cost value was adjusted for 5 man (280 > 28).

So I would really, really like it if the Riflemen reinforce cost modifier went to 0.5 like it is for all squads instead of staying at the VCoH value of 0.6. If that will cause balance problems maybe have the reinforce cost lowered with supply yard upgrades (remember how supply yard upgrades increased veterancy gains for Riflemen). Really anything that makes the reinforce cost of Riflemen not so high in comparison to all other squads of comparable MP price.


far back in very old patches many elite units had a reinforce cost modifier less than 0.5. It got standardized that a full squad reinforce would cost 50% of its initial build cost at minimum. The Rifle squad remained quite high at 60% for some reasons, perhaps due to later upkeep changes and supply yard upkeep reduction.


I would largely agree that supply yard and its upgrades should affect rifle squads in some ways. Dropping reinforce cost/and or boosting its veterancy modifier.
And the supply yard and its upgrades should not require that much tec. Most games end at like 20-30 mins and supply yards are nothing more than a building required to unlock some stuff. But due to its late availability doesnt really have an impact in regular games of standard length.


As for volks, i would give them the Panzerfaust for free or lower cost once certain HQ upgrades have been reached.


EDIT: Looking through corsix, it seems like PE's kar98k's did not change. So they are still using old values and since normal Pgren's shared the same rifle stats as the old volks; they now have worse stats than the new volk kar98k's (and old damage values too). Assault Grenadiers are also using their old kar98k_elite stats which are now worse than the new Grenadier ones.


Thats true. I guess changes for PE and CW will come with their doctrine reworks. But i am afraid that it all ends up in a massive accuracy boost for those three factions that turns the regular soldiers into snipers.

I would have preferd to drop build cost in Volks and perhaps grens rather than boosting their stats to Elite status. I mean when Volks become this kind of rifle masters, where shall the Elites like commandos end up? 60% basic accuracy?


EDIT:

Played my first quick test games and i will list bugs first.


Bugs:
Medic and Repair Bunker are still changing its owner to a teammate.


Issues:

-Bunkers are now extensively spammable for 250 MP. With two pio squads and the 28 mm HT they are also very quickly build. So you can basically provide support to every teammate very quickly and possibly building them up even during an ongoing attack of a teammate. Its just way to cheap and they cost no upkeep. I managed to cluster bunkers of all kinds all over the place. In real pvp many of them could be used by teammates and so on.
They can become abusive as EXP/CP farming method.

-The emplacment system is cool, indeed. But you cant really decrew them. You can kill the crew but no one can take them except you as the player who build them. You can spam them also for 100 MP within seconds. Even if you leave them empty they can work as a very nice distraction for your enemie. That can become an issue. And as said, even if the crew is dead no one else can capture it. So there is basically no risk leaving them alone except for losing the invested MP.


-The Volks squad managed to mow down wave after wave. It was only vs bots but still. They send in sometimes 3 rifle squads at once, many of them staying in yellow cover. In my line of defense, the Volks squad managed to kill 21 enemies in no time. At the same time the nearby HMG42 that also shot nonstop at targets managed to make two kills in the same time. For a starting unit its just crazy how you can mow down units just like that. Also that massive accuracy works nicely against retreating units. That means that your opponent has to click the retreat button earlier if he doesnt want to lose his entire squad during the retreat to the last volley fired by those sniper k98.



Currently this doc provides massive logistical support with cheap medic facilties (their bunkers that can be upgraded into medic stations are cheaper than US triage centers.....) and repair shops all over the place. A single def doc player can thus provide greater support than three CW players combined when it comes to repairs and forward build up. At the same time getting also cheap and effective defenses. I guess you didnt take into consideration the defensive boost on Volks in combination of the new K98. The combo is very deadly. And stuff can become abusive really quick. Emplacments (even though only as distraction) are spamable, uncapable and for no upkeep.
You can also do very effective exp farming this way. Entire branches unlocked just by cheap bunkers and instant emplacments.

plenty reasons for concerns.

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Re: 5.1.8 beta (Doctrine rework, update 3)

Postby kwok » 11 Jul 2019, 02:34

It seems like I don't have the file on my current computer, it is probably on a different computer at home. However, I did find some screenshots used for discussion.

Firstly, history of the garand/k98 changes. It was suggested by a tester who provided over 3 replays with different players as well as played against me many times in 1v1s. At first, it was near unanimous that devs did NOT want to go through with the idea to improve k98s.
That's when we started doing the math. Below are just a few screenshots shared in of a really basic calculator used to determine the values to set.

pre-patch
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/ ... nknown.png

post-patch
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/ ... nknown.png

if i remember right, the calculator was further tweaked to where the % of chance "winning" was more refined that a simple ratio of damage. there are also variables NOT included in the calculator that would significantly impact the values. For example, hp of infantry, reload frequency, and reload time (both would significantly be in favor of rifles over volks).

In addition to the calculator, we looked at other replays and games provided in the base game and beta patch, overall allies won more often than axis and we believed it was because of the snowballing of early game advantages provided by rifles. The doctrine reworks were not enough to influence this simple fact that in the early game allies gained a significantly large advantage which at the highest levels of players is enough to significantly dominate the game.

In the end, we decided that the k98 changes should be implemented as EXPERIMENTAL.

Hopefully I can find the original calculator files so you can see the math yourself, but don't hold your breath. I'm not as organized as the rest of the dev members.

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Re: 5.1.8 beta (Doctrine rework, update 3)

Postby Warhawks97 » 11 Jul 2019, 09:40




Where is the issue? The numbers there reflect pretty much the reality that i experienced in games. Overrun tactics worked to some degree with rifles but delayed vehicles by a lot, 1 vs 1 combat vs volks squad (esspecially with sandbags) was usually a certain death.



What i saw now in my first two quick test games were Volks killing stuff much quicker than HMG 42, leaving no chance to rifles to close in at all bc whenever any unit tried so they got just mowed down.


In addition to the calculator, we looked at other replays and games provided in the base game and beta patch, overall allies won more often than axis and we believed it was because of the snowballing of early game advantages provided by rifles. The doctrine reworks were not enough to influence this simple fact that in the early game allies gained a significantly large advantage which at the highest levels of players is enough to significantly dominate the game.


Which replays? Not those here in forum, not the games ive played and not the streams that i watched on steam.

Note also pls that i play the majority of games with standard res, so there is no such thing like instant 7 men rifle squad with double BAR and captain boost. in standard res cheap Volks with spam and beat out the shit out of the standard rifle squads now. I hope you didnt forget about the existance of standard res mode. Recent changes looked a lot like you balance it only for high res games.

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Re: 5.1.8 beta (Doctrine rework, update 3)

Postby Diablo » 11 Jul 2019, 10:35

Couldn't the empty emplacements be built as neutral, just like the new bunkers? That way a decrewed gun might be taken by enemy forces. Also a neutral building doesn't serve as distraction or bullet sponge.

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Re: 5.1.8 beta (Doctrine rework, update 3)

Postby MarKr » 11 Jul 2019, 13:02

@Diablo: I tried it that way when I worked on implementing the system and the result was that the gun was always spawned next to the emplacement instead of inside. I will give it another try, maybe I'll figure something out.
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Re: 5.1.8 beta (Doctrine rework, update 3)

Postby kwok » 11 Jul 2019, 15:01

The problem with the current state was that:
1. The relative strength of garands at effective ranges was greatly superior to k98s at effective ranges, note the disparity between close range ratios and long range ratios (64:36 vs 42:58)
2. The notion that volks would not be able to be simply rushed when behind cover was false, k98s did not output enough damage, note that the avg damage per 5 seconds a single garand could kill 2-3 volks in 5 seconds whereas it would take a k98 up to 15-20 seconds at long range to kill a single rifleman.
3. Earlier and cheaper accessibility to bars compared to lmg42s further exacerbated the early game snowballing. From what I’ve seen, this 1v1 scenario with sandbags where volks win is absolutely false. I’ve been seeing rifles with double bars out trading grenadiers with and lmg at long range.

Let me recall some of the replays posted. Won’t be able to get to a computer able to do that until this weekend.

About your comment of high vs low resources. Just because it’s balanced for one setting doesn’t mean it’s okay. Ideally it should be balanced for high resources and then that would cascade to standard with less issues. The primary problem with standard resource is typically not unit performance but the fact that it’s a game of Rock Paper Scissors. For example, if WM volks spams now, an HMg is an effective counter now that suppression values were cleaned up. From what I’ve seen so far, the changes more or less haven’t changed standard.... people still use the same build orders except now America has to think beyond always making two riflemen, which is still viable but not optimal. We are going for no builder order should be optimal. I don’t think I’ve seen double volks be significantly stronger than any other axis opening.

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Re: 5.1.8 beta (Doctrine rework, update 3)

Postby Warhawks97 » 11 Jul 2019, 17:13

kwok wrote:The problem with the current state was that:
1. The relative strength of garands at effective ranges was greatly superior to k98s at effective ranges, note the disparity between close range ratios and long range ratios (64:36 vs 42:58)


And? The riflemen cost significantly more (upkeep and reinforce cost). And this difference becomes even greater when both field several squads in early game. So that ratio was in my opinion ok due to this cost difference.


2. The notion that volks would not be able to be simply rushed when behind cover was false, k98s did not output enough damage, note that the avg damage per 5 seconds a single garand could kill 2-3 volks in 5 seconds whereas it would take a k98 up to 15-20 seconds at long range to kill a single rifleman.


When i started off with my pios and two volks using sandbags and creating a cross fire i managed to win most infantry fights. The seconds rifles need to move/close in are seconds they dont shoot or with poor accuracy. And in case there was a bike behind, any close in attempt was shred in a mere second. You should have taken such things into acc. The damage output differenc between jeep and schwimmwage/bike is an important factor when they are being put behind infantry to provide covering fire. I dont even get why the schwimm/bike MG is twice as deadly as a top mounted MG34 from a tank.

3. Earlier and cheaper accessibility to bars compared to lmg42s further exacerbated the early game snowballing. From what I’ve seen, this 1v1 scenario with sandbags where volks win is absolutely false. I’ve been seeing rifles with double bars out trading grenadiers with and lmg at long range.


The BAR isnt that effective. Each cost 65 ammo and two are perhaps as effective as one lmg42 or 34.




people still use the same build orders except now America has to think beyond always making two riflemen, which is still viable but not optimal. We are going for no builder order should be optimal. I don’t think I’ve seen double volks be significantly stronger than any other axis opening.



Which other option is there? Jeep? disappeared due to AT-Rifle squad. You cant risk losing 240 MP to a lucky shot early game. And most play BK doc so jeep is nothing i would go for anymore. 60 mm Mortar? has barely more range than rifles and poor accuracy/damage to effectively cause trouble for the enemie. If you got for it right away you have a weak frontline and you end up getting rushed. Getting it later means that you wont get it before axis get their own 81 mm mortar. So the most effective thing was rifle spam followed by double or tripple 37 mm to hold the ground or just double sniper which the majority of players did. Rifle spam might be successfull for the first push but then comes the upkeep, reinforce cost and the enemie counter attacks sweeps you back to your base.

So dont blame players for only doing rifle spam when you ruined most other options. Now we get forced to stick with shitty 60 mm mortar which is quickly overrun/overcome/obsolete and unable to barrage down a HMG42 squad with a full barrage. You killed the jeep first so everyone ran for rifle squads, now you killed the rifles.

Fixing bikes/scwhimms MG would also help a lot already.

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XAHTEP39
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Re: 5.1.8 beta (Doctrine rework, update 3)

Postby XAHTEP39 » 11 Jul 2019, 18:03

Is it possible to get in an "empty" emplacement (Defensive Doctrine) infantry squad, like as building or trench? If you don`t have Paks near...

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MarKr
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Re: 5.1.8 beta (Doctrine rework, update 3)

Postby MarKr » 11 Jul 2019, 19:28

@XAHTEP39: Unfortunately, no. The emplacement model is made in such way that if you garrison a squad in it, it only shows one soldier standing in the middle, the rest is not visible and cannot shoot.
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kwok
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Re: 5.1.8 beta (Doctrine rework, update 3)

Postby kwok » 11 Jul 2019, 22:08

Warhawks97 wrote:
kwok wrote:The problem with the current state was that:
1. The relative strength of garands at effective ranges was greatly superior to k98s at effective ranges, note the disparity between close range ratios and long range ratios (64:36 vs 42:58)


And? The riflemen cost significantly more (upkeep and reinforce cost). And this difference becomes even greater when both field several squads in early game. So that ratio was in my opinion ok due to this cost difference.


Based on watching how the game flows in replays, in the opening/early stages of the game, upkeep does not really mean that much. It's only once it gets to mid/late games does upkeep really start impacting. That's what the supply yard is for though.

2. The notion that volks would not be able to be simply rushed when behind cover was false, k98s did not output enough damage, note that the avg damage per 5 seconds a single garand could kill 2-3 volks in 5 seconds whereas it would take a k98 up to 15-20 seconds at long range to kill a single rifleman.


When i started off with my pios and two volks using sandbags and creating a cross fire i managed to win most infantry fights. The seconds rifles need to move/close in are seconds they dont shoot or with poor accuracy. And in case there was a bike behind, any close in attempt was shred in a mere second. You should have taken such things into acc. The damage output differenc between jeep and schwimmwage/bike is an important factor when they are being put behind infantry to provide covering fire. I dont even get why the schwimm/bike MG is twice as deadly as a top mounted MG34 from a tank.

Good job. Who did you play against?

3. Earlier and cheaper accessibility to bars compared to lmg42s further exacerbated the early game snowballing. From what I’ve seen, this 1v1 scenario with sandbags where volks win is absolutely false. I’ve been seeing rifles with double bars out trading grenadiers with and lmg at long range.


The BAR isnt that effective. Each cost 65 ammo and two are perhaps as effective as one lmg42 or 34.

I know for a fact I have a replay saved in the former beta where a 7 man rifle with double bars would out trade def doc (with buffs) grenaders with lmg AND volks at long range.




people still use the same build orders except now America has to think beyond always making two riflemen, which is still viable but not optimal. We are going for no builder order should be optimal. I don’t think I’ve seen double volks be significantly stronger than any other axis opening.



Which other option is there? Jeep? disappeared due to AT-Rifle squad. You cant risk losing 240 MP to a lucky shot early game. And most play BK doc so jeep is nothing i would go for anymore. 60 mm Mortar? has barely more range than rifles and poor accuracy/damage to effectively cause trouble for the enemie. If you got for it right away you have a weak frontline and you end up getting rushed. Getting it later means that you wont get it before axis get their own 81 mm mortar. So the most effective thing was rifle spam followed by double or tripple 37 mm to hold the ground or just double sniper which the majority of players did. Rifle spam might be successfull for the first push but then comes the upkeep, reinforce cost and the enemie counter attacks sweeps you back to your base.

So dont blame players for only doing rifle spam when you ruined most other options. Now we get forced to stick with shitty 60 mm mortar which is quickly overrun/overcome/obsolete and unable to barrage down a HMG42 squad with a full barrage. You killed the jeep first so everyone ran for rifle squads, now you killed the rifles.

Fixing bikes/scwhimms MG would also help a lot already.


Congrats, you've clearly haven't played the beta.
1. AT squad was removed and blitz only and out of the WH barracks, so it becomes a tradeoff with volks. Besides, in the past 37mm paks were able to one shot jeeps but that didn't stop players from using jeeps. It wasn't until new garands came in and BEFORE at squad did this rifle only open become super popular.
2. HMG openings from WH are weaker and from US are stronger now. They are now suppression oriented weapons and probably WONT do as much killing as before. We might even look to reduce the price of the MG42 since it's really not as effective to justify its price. I could literally say the same about rifles and the old 30cal to an even GREATER extent... the DPS and even suppression values of the the 30cal was absolutely ASS compared to the garands. Don't even get me started on the vickers.
3. Ever since barrage mu costs, mortar openings are almost not used anymore except against hmg openings. You can literally only use 1 barrage with no capping power if you open with a mortar. Super useless opening now EXCEPT as a clear counter to a specific opening, as most openings are intended to be. The mortar might not kill the HMG right away, but it creates parity where it removes the HMG from dominating a zone, as intended. If each player both chooses to get a support weapon they are trading off capping power. So net both players are going to be not gaining much ground with a slight advantage to the mortar AS INTENDED.
4. Double sniper opening, ehh.... i have no comment there. I have my own opinions and let the community shitpost about it. People don't do this on standard res anymore though, not since messuupgood basically got kicked out of the community.

I think people just don't play the way you think they do anymore. The meta has changed a LOT. All in all, "don't blame the players for only doing rifle spam when YOU ruined most other options"? Seriously man? Lol, literally the only thing that has changed in the early game over the last year has been 2 things: garands and at squad. Prior to the AT squad, rifle spamming was optimal. And since the AT squad, we have reverted it to an extent. So personally, if anything it was YOU who ruined the other options with "your garands". I'd love to roll back the patches and show but unfortunately my pettiness isn't allowed to drive the decisions. I'll even tell you that I was against the k98 changes at first, but your responses to the decision is making me think it was the right decision afterall.

Anyways, we're going to keep an eye on this EXPERIMENTAL change with an open mind of reducing the actual magnitude of the change. We were gonna hit garands with the nerf bat or buff k98s. But so far it seems like the change in principle will stay.

The New BK Champion
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Re: 5.1.8 beta (Doctrine rework, update 3)

Postby The New BK Champion » 12 Jul 2019, 13:26

Wow so much experimenting recently. Have you discovered your inner mad scientists?


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