5.1.8. beta (Doctrine rework, update 2)

[MarKr]

Hello to all of you!
Since I've been threatened on Discord to release an update or suffer the consequences (destruction of all breweries in the world by V2 rockets) I have no other option than to coply.
This time the changelog is divided into sections and we provide our notes on the section which explain what was changed and why (in case such explanation was needed.
Let's get to it, shall we?

General Changes

MG Standardization
Notes:
Standardizing the HMGs doesn’t mean every HMG will behave like an MG42 now. There is still variation between the different HMGs, but they will not be so different where one type is more damage oriented while the other is suppression. All MGs should be more about suppressing than killing now.

- Unified stats modifiers when a HMG shoots at a suppressed infantry
- Changed suppression values for .30cal and Vickers HMGs (teams and MG nests) to so that they generate same suppression amount per burst as MG42
- Lowered extra suppression that received that nearby squads received (was +25% now they get the same as the targeted squad)

Camo Mechanics Standardization

- Standardized camo settings for infantry units (bonuses, how long they stay revealed etc.)
- Standardized camo reveal number of shots for vehicles to be 1 shot
- Revized CQB camo settings to prevent situations where they could easily shred enemy infantry over great distances

Assault Howitzer Support Mechanics
Notes:
In order to preserve the original effectiveness of howitzer tanks against emplacements as they were original intended, reworks to the long range fire ability was made. Ideally this change prevents the howitzer tanks from being strong anti-tank camping weapons as they were before.

- Howitzer tanks will no longer be able to "double shoot" in certain situations
- Howitzer tanks now have unified scatter in auto-fire mode (StuPa still have a bit more)
- Howitzer tanks will now properly rotate to face the target when they use their long range ability
- When you command Howitzer tanks to use their long-range ability, it will fire 3 shots or until the vision on the target is lost
- Long range ability of Howitzer tanks is now free

Wehrmacht AT Capabilities
Notes:
The recent patches have been tough to balance between the new WM AT squad and the updated US 50cals. Instead of continued tweaks, we are attempting to take a different approach where we “restore the game” back to a more stable balanced state and move the AT squad into a more aggressive oriented role. The best place to reward aggressive tactics would be blitz doc. We are interested to see how the squad will be used now and look to balance it so it is a viable early attacking unit.

- LeiG18 is no longer a reward unit, can be built in Forward HQs by any doctrine
- PaK36 returned to HQ
- GrB39 squad moved to Barracks
- GrB39 squad available only in Blitzkrieg doctrine
- Removed the "Rocket" ability from 50mm PaK38

Experimental Wehrmacht Build Order Update
Notes:
WM has always had a difficult early game in high resources mode because it cannot build all its unit producing buildings as quickly as USA or PE. WM players would often come to a difficult choice between retreating a pioneer early in the middle of the fight to build or keeping the pioneer in combat at critical moments risking the Allied player stomping through with medium tier units. We hope that by shifting some of the dependencies around for WM it can have a level playing field against Allies from the early to mid game. We currently have a guess as to what the meta might turn into, but we won’t reveal that hoping to see how players will adapt naturally and making necessary tweaks from there.

- Tier 2 building no longer requires T2 upgrade from HQ to be built
- Units available in T2 building without T2 upgrade: Transport Halftrack, 50mm PaK, 28mm Halftrack (Defensive Doctrine), 20mm flak38 Halftrack (Defensive Doctrine), 37mm PaK36 Halftrack (Blitzkrieg Doctrine; HE mode become available only with T2 upgrade)
- Other units require T2 upgrade to be built, units that previously required T3 upgrade still require T3
- Tier 2 building fuel cost reduced to 15 (from 20) *
- Tier 2 upgrade fuel cost increased to 20 (from 15) *

Previously Reworked Doctrine Balance Adjustments

- Build time of 76mm Jumbo increased to 65 seconds (from 55)
- "Defensive Operations" unlock no longer reduces lay times of mines
- Weapon Mass Production upgrade now requires Supply Yard
- Increased cost of Tank Commander Off-map Barrage to 100 ammunition (from 85)
- Panzer IV H basic cost dropped to 550MP 65F (from 80F)
- Mass Production unlock reduces the cost of Panzer IV H to 525MP 55F (from 450MP 65F)
- Stormtrooper Demolition Team deployed from Stormtrooper Halftrack now correctly requires the unlock to be used
- Blitzkrieg and Terror doctrines can no longer build classic bunkers
- Changed loadout of CQB squad to 4xThompson + 2x Shotgun *

Bug Fixes

- 105mm Sherman should no longer refuse to fire at enemy buildings
- M36 Jackson is now properly available in Armor doctrine
- Removed invisible coaxial .30cal from M20 (both normal and Command version)
- HE rifle grenades should no longer get stuck on most objects on their trajectory
- Changed the Recon bonus of Command Car, now it provides +10 vision range and detection of enemy tanks in FoW at range of 70
- Grenadiers called in with Offmap Battlegroup will no longer have shorter reinforcement times

The Main Event: Reworked Defensive Doctrine
Notes:
At its heart, the doctrine still puts a lot of emphasis on defending own territory but allows for some combined-arms pushes. The main goal for the rework isn’t to nerf, buff, or even make the doctrine more well-rounded. Instead it is to change the way the doctrine is played from a “one optimized build order” type of style to a “skill based” doctrine that rewards long term and adaptive strategizing. This rework should also keep in pace with other reworks going on now that every doctrine will effectively have some type of emplacement counter which was originally the main focus of defense doc. We look forward to the results of test games to see how people will potentially change how they use this doctrine in light of other reworks in place.

First things first - the new unlock tree of Defensive Doctrine looks like this:

Now for more details:
Bunker changes
Notes:
The biggest change to def doc is about how bunkers are used. The intent here is to remove the idea that defense doc is a “place and forget” OP defensive units doctrine but instead rewards well planned defenses. This was done by updating how bunkers work. What we found was that all other emplacements and defenses, like trenches and 88 cannons, had a risk/reward aspect to them where there was a chance that a badly placed defense can fall to the hands of the enemy. Taking this concept in mind, bunkers are no longer considered as immovable objects that can’t change hands. Instead, the bunkers would become "garrisonable" by opponent, if he manages to kill the crew inside. This may seem as a net nerf, however bunkers provide better protection from bullets and arty now so the infantry inside would survive easier than now. There are other creative ways to take advantage of this change. For example, as any neutral structure the bunkers would become possible for booby-trapping and with the latest changes it would be possible to plant a demo charge next to it so when the bunker becomes overrun, you can destroy it to prevent opponent from getting a strong defense point. Repair and Medic bunkers have very low vision range, as their function is not spotting but repairing/healing.

In summary, the bunkers are strong defenses but soldiers inside are more susceptible to grenades and flames. So when opponent manages to get close, it pays off. At the same time it should make defenders to prepare accordingly - tank traps/ barbed wires on approaches to prevent opponent getting close, placing mines etc.

- Bunkers/Pantherturms are now neutral when not garrisoned (can be garrisoned by opponent if left unguarded)
- Removed upgrades from bunkers: Feurleit, HMG
- Observation bunker can no longer build scouts and snipers
- Bunkers have now 0 vision (they are neutral when not garrisoned so they cannot provide vision but vision is provided by garrisoned infantry)
- Observation bunker upgrade increases vision of garisoned infantry
- After upgrading bunker to Medic or Repair stations, these bunkers can no longer be garisoned, but become owned by player permanently (cannot be captured)
- Increased HP of Pantherturm to 5000 (from 3000)
- Pantherturm gun no longer auto-targets nearby infantry

Observation Post Upgrade
Notes:
Because changes were made so that defense doc isn’t about extremely “place and forget” defenses, updates are needed so that defensive players can have more time to reactively plan. The OP upgrades give that time. Fortify perimeter has been moved to make room for this OP upgrade.

- "Fortify Perimeter"upgrade (MGs on top of base building) moved to HQ (150MP 15F)
- Added unlock "Improved Observation Posts" (increases HP of OPs (+200); OPs take less damage (-35%), and detect enemy vehicles in FoW)

Infantry Changes
Notes:
Advanced repairs from start provided an advantage for Def doc, so now Pioneers will need to first spend some CP to get it, on the other hand the unlock is now available sooner than before. The weapon change on Grenadiers is made to underline their defensive role. STGs are assault weapons. G43s will turn the squad from mid-long range effective to mainly mid range effective but still possible to combine with LMG/Schreck upgrades and gain reasonable loadout. Unlike in PE, Grens in Def doc will get no "Suppressive volley" ability with G43 upgrade. Changes to Officer aura system again underline the defensive nature of the doctrine, making soldiers and structures on own territory stronger in defense while removing an option for supporting troops during an assault. We also feel that a defense-oriented officer in Axis faction (which is focused on defenses) is a nice touch.

- Pioneers: now receive improved Repair ability only after Pioneer unlock (changes repair speed from "5" to "8") *
- Grenadiers: lose STG44 upgrade, instead receive 2x G43 upgrade option (40 ammo each)
- Officer:
- keeps current abilities
- loses current aura bonuses to surrounding infantry (only in Def doc, in other docs he keeps current aura)
- when in own sector, provides defensive bonuses sector-wide (similar to CW Captain)
- lvl0:
- infantry in sector: HP regen 0.004; rec. suppresion -50%
- infantry in sector in trenches: rec.damage -5%; rec.accuracy -15% (defensive bonuses from "Fight and Cover" don't apply in trenches)
- Emplacements/bunkers: max HP +25%
- lvl2:
- infantry in sector: HP regen 0,004; +15% max HP
- Emplacements/bunkers: take 5% less damage
- lvl3: - bonus to income from the sector he's in (+3ammo/fuel)

Support Weaponry Changes
Notes:
LeiG18 is now available for Defensive Doctrine in second building as it serves as nice support gun and can provide indirect fire support. For BK and Terror doctrines the LeiG18 is, as mentioned already, no longer a reward unit - it is available only in FHQ, similarly as Pack Howitzer for USA docs. Removal of Puma-based vehicles is because of their offensive nature, this doctrine relies on Halftracks as main early vehicles. Changes to Elephant are there to make it more useful because using the static position was just asking for arty/air strike.

AT guns:
- LeiG18 available in second building (no longer reward for PaK38)

Vehicles:
- Flakpanzer 38(t), Puma 50mm (reward for Puma with 20mm), StuPa removed from the Defense doctrine *
- Elefant now has Ambush ability insted of "static position" and at level 2 gets ALRS *
- Grille now fires a barrage of 4 shots with a bigger scatter so it hits an area (from 1 very accurate shot)*

Buidings:
- PaK40 emplacement (available at same phase as normal PaK40; no unlock)

Abilities:
- 280mm offmap Rocket artillery strike changed for 150mm offmap Hummel barrage *

Next update will bring changes to Terror doctrine and few changes to Airborne doctrine.

There it is. We hope you will enjoy the new Defensive doctrine.

[Volksgrenadiers]

Its looking good for now but,rocket from pak 38 should be move on pak36 where it belong(it could be interesting) and maybe little speed up and shoot vision on Elefant cuz still its little be lower and weaker then in other tanks as SP or Jagtiger some others..

And in reworking of Terror and Blitz maybe will be good idea to look on mortars as Nebelr and maultier cuz lot of time its happend when you want shoot some unit what are behind enemy lines that reveal themself on few second while they shooting and you want to send nebel shoot it wont shoot many times cuz its hide in that time but it take ammo and again reload time so it like you waste salvo that do nothink.

[Warhawks97]

MG Standardization
Notes:
Standardizing the HMGs doesn’t mean every HMG will behave like an MG42 now. There is still variation between the different HMGs, but they will not be so different where one type is more damage oriented while the other is suppression. All MGs should be more about suppressing than killing now.

Thx god, no more 25% accuracy bonus for HMG42 against suppressed inf (which virtually neutralized the cover bonuses)

- Standardized camo settings for infantry units (bonuses, how long they stay revealed etc.)
- Standardized camo reveal number of shots for vehicles to be 1 shot
- Revized CQB camo settings to prevent situations where they could easily shred enemy infantry over great distances

Wow, thats a harsh punishment for Hetzer and JP IV. I would have kept Hetzer perhaps a little bit special bc its really a small target. Anyway.

- Howitzer tanks will no longer be able to "double shoot" in certain situations
- Howitzer tanks now have unified scatter in auto-fire mode (StuPa still have a bit more)
- Howitzer tanks will now properly rotate to face the target when they use their long range ability
- When you command Howitzer tanks to use their long-range ability, it will fire 3 shots or until the vision on the target is lost
- Long range ability of Howitzer tanks is now free

so only Upkeep to pay? Interesting. I hope this wont be the death of all emplacments oO.

- LeiG18 is no longer a reward unit, can be built in Forward HQs by any doctrine
- PaK36 returned to HQ
- GrB39 squad moved to Barracks
- GrB39 squad available only in Blitzkrieg doctrine
- Removed the "Rocket" ability from 50mm PaK38

Fine so far, cant await to see AT-rifles being completely reworked to have its own niche rather than being "AT gun rifles."

- Tier 2 building no longer requires T2 upgrade from HQ to be built
- Units available in T2 building without T2 upgrade: Transport Halftrack, 50mm PaK, 28mm Halftrack (Defensive Doctrine), 20mm flak38 Halftrack (Defensive Doctrine), 37mm PaK36 Halftrack (Blitzkrieg Doctrine; HE mode become available only with T2 upgrade)
- Other units require T2 upgrade to be built, units that previously required T3 upgrade still require T3

Nice. I am looking forward for further reworks here. No more two tank factories and instead a building for inf, one for logistic and defense/support, one for assault and one for Tanks. And more independency.

- Build time of 76mm Jumbo increased to 65 seconds (from 55)
- "Defensive Operations" unlock no longer reduces lay times of mines
- Weapon Mass Production upgrade now requires Supply Yard
- Increased cost of Tank Commander Off-map Barrage to 100 ammunition (from 85)
- Panzer IV H basic cost dropped to 550MP 65F (from 80F)
- Mass Production unlock reduces the cost of Panzer IV H to 525MP 55F (from 450MP 65F)
- Stormtrooper Demolition Team deployed from Stormtrooper Halftrack now correctly requires the unlock to be used
- Blitzkrieg and Terror doctrines can no longer build classic bunkers

Nice so far. I wonder about the small cost difference for the tank IV H after mass-production but i guess the J is more or less meant for the mass production in the late stage. I kind of like it.

Notes:
At its heart, the doctrine still puts a lot of emphasis on defending own territory but allows for some combined-arms pushes. The main goal for the rework isn’t to nerf, buff, or even make the doctrine more well-rounded. Instead it is to change the way the doctrine is played from a “one optimized build order” type of style to a “skill based” doctrine that rewards long term and adaptive strategizing. This rework should also keep in pace with other reworks going on now that every doctrine will effectively have some type of emplacement counter which was originally the main focus of defense doc. We look forward to the results of test games to see how people will potentially change how they use this doctrine in light of other reworks in place.

First things first - the new unlock tree of Defensive Doctrine looks like this:
def doc new.jpg
Now for more details:
Bunker changes
Notes:
The biggest change to def doc is about how bunkers are used. The intent here is to remove the idea that defense doc is a “place and forget” OP defensive units doctrine but instead rewards well planned defenses. This was done by updating how bunkers work. What we found was that all other emplacements and defenses, like trenches and 88 cannons, had a risk/reward aspect to them where there was a chance that a badly placed defense can fall to the hands of the enemy. Taking this concept in mind, bunkers are no longer considered as immovable objects that can’t change hands. Instead, the bunkers would become "garrisonable" by opponent, if he manages to kill the crew inside. This may seem as a net nerf, however bunkers provide better protection from bullets and arty now so the infantry inside would survive easier than now. There are other creative ways to take advantage of this change. For example, as any neutral structure the bunkers would become possible for booby-trapping and with the latest changes it would be possible to plant a demo charge next to it so when the bunker becomes overrun, you can destroy it to prevent opponent from getting a strong defense point. Repair and Medic bunkers have very low vision range, as their function is not spotting but repairing/healing.

In summary, the bunkers are strong defenses but soldiers inside are more susceptible to grenades and flames. So when opponent manages to get close, it pays off. At the same time it should make defenders to prepare accordingly - tank traps/ barbed wires on approaches to prevent opponent getting close, placing mines etc.

Love it. Back then when i started i wouldnt have believed to see bunkers being finally reworked but still great. No more dump bunker spam with huge sight range and shit.

- Bunkers/Pantherturms are now neutral when not garrisoned (can be garrisoned by opponent if left unguarded)
- Removed upgrades from bunkers: Feurleit, HMG
- Observation bunker can no longer build scouts and snipers
- Bunkers have now 0 vision (they are neutral when not garrisoned so they cannot provide vision but vision is provided by garrisoned infantry)
- Observation bunker upgrade increases vision of garisoned infantry
- After upgrading bunker to Medic or Repair stations, these bunkers can no longer be garisoned, but become owned by player permanently (cannot be captured)
- Increased HP of Pantherturm to 5000 (from 3000)
- Pantherturm gun no longer auto-targets nearby infantry

Niceeee

Observation Post Upgrade
Notes:
Because changes were made so that defense doc isn’t about extremely “place and forget” defenses, updates are needed so that defensive players can have more time to reactively plan. The OP upgrades give that time. Fortify perimeter has been moved to make room for this OP upgrade.

Niceeee. Just everything looks fucking great.

Infantry Changes
Notes:
Advanced repairs from start provided an advantage for Def doc, so now Pioneers will need to first spend some CP to get it, on the other hand the unlock is now available sooner than before. The weapon change on Grenadiers is made to underline their defensive role. STGs are assault weapons. G43s will turn the squad from mid-long range effective to mainly mid range effective but still possible to combine with LMG/Schreck upgrades and gain reasonable loadout. Unlike in PE, Grens in Def doc will get no "Suppressive volley" ability with G43 upgrade. Changes to Officer aura system again underline the defensive nature of the doctrine, making soldiers and structures on own territory stronger in defense while removing an option for supporting troops during an assault. We also feel that a defense-oriented officer in Axis faction (which is focused on defenses) is a nice touch.

- Pioneers: start with basic repairs (advanced repairs are given to them with Pionner unlock)
- Grenadiers: lose STG44 upgrade, instead receive 2x G43 upgrade option (40 ammo each)
- Officer:
- keeps current abilities
- loses current aura bonuses to surrounding infantry (only in Def doc, in other docs he keeps current aura)
- gets defensive bonuses sector-wide (similar to CW Captain)
- lvl0:
- infantry in sector: HP regen 0.004; rec. suppresion -50%
- infantry in sector in trenches: rec.damage -5%; rec.accuracy -15% (defensive bonuses from "Fight and Cover" don't apply in trenches)
- Emplacements/bunkers: max HP +25%
- lvl2:
- infantry in sector: HP regen 0,004; +15% max HP
- Emplacements/bunkers: take 5% less damage
- lvl3: - bonus to income from the sector he's in (+3ammo/fuel)

Nice idea.

Terror doc could be more about intimidating enemies while Bk officers main goal would be to squeeze units faster out of the Buildings.

Support Weaponry Changes
Notes:
LeiG18 is now available for Defensive Doctrine in second building as it serves as nice support gun and can provide indirect fire support. For BK and Terror doctrines the LeiG18 is, as mentioned already, no longer a reward unit - it is available only in FHQ, similarly as Pack Howitzer for USA docs. Removal of Puma-based vehicles is because of their offensive nature, this doctrine relies on Halftracks as main early vehicles. Changes to Elephant are there to make it more useful because using the static position was just asking for arty/air strike.

AT guns:
- LeiG18 available in second building (no longer reward for PaK38)

Vehicles:
- removal of Puma-based vehicles
- Elephant: - receives ambush ability instead of Static position
- receives ALRS/Veteran shot at level 3
Buidings:
- PaK40 emplacement (available at same phase as normal PaK40; no unlock)

Next update will bring changes to Terror doctrine and few changes to Airborne doctrine.

There it is. We hope you will enjoy the new Defensive doctrine.

The Pumas on WH side should be BK doc only, Pumas on PE side should be mainly in Luft doc.

Regarding the Grille, i would propose also changes to it. Its basically the same short 150 mm infantry gun used by Stupa. Its not a canon and its also not an howitzer. Thus its main role was closer range fire support. I wouldnt turn it into a stupa, but instead making it shoot two pretty accurate shots at any location but with a range of roughly 120 range max and not 180.
Being a Hummel but with just one sniper shot sucks. Hummel was a howitzer for longer range arty support having more than twice the range of grille. Grille was just a cheap way to mount a 150 mm infantry assault gun on a chassis to improve mobility. Perhaps it would even be able to shoot direct fire in the same way as stupa, just that it can fire indirect over a bigger distance and at any point of desire.



But great job so far. Def doc finally got a nice tec tree and design. And thanks god, no more "Orbital Bombardment of Doom" and instead a more logical arty strike.

[Black Panther]

First replay, enjoy

[Viper]

question,

does improved fortifications unlock affect bunkers or only emplacements?

[Warhawks97]

The howitzers still have unit cap in addition to upkeep. Oversight?

Also the observation post upgrade upgrades only those which got build by def doc player, right? Or does improve all?

Else fun to play.
About the officers i would really start making cuts and differences. The def doc one is kind of...a lot of abilties from VT to off map to production boost.
I would make it more doctrinal. Also the off map should be an off-map mortar strike like storm leader squad and not such orbital bombardment style of thing. And perhaps for BK doc as quick support strike.

[MarKr]

@viper: only emplacements

@hawks: if there is still pop cap, it is oversight. Which ones have it?

It should only affect those built by the player who has the unlock

[Warhawks97]

both howitzer versions were limited to two


Edit:

Bug:

Def doc Hummel barrage provides "Combat engineer training" and this defensive arty strike on a captured point. But no arty strike, only the symbol is there.

[mofetagalactica]

I think the 90mm will have to go trought some changes vs jagdpanzers armor that seems to be resilent enought to hold vs pershings, when they should be used from cammo.

And the bunkers should get slight price reduction after these changes.

Also i got a report of CW engineers having infinite sprint when you upgrade them with mine detector.

[Redgaarden]

I tried a couple of games. Had alot of fun. god my ass handed to me by a mass of stg grens and pz3 Ns. destroyed him in the rematch with a bit of Combat engineer Spam.

My issues so far is when a Pershing was one hit killed by a pak43 emplacement. I dont like the one hit kill mentality and would just like to complain that 850hp isn't that much in this game. And would hope the pershing could get enough hp to not be one hit killed. There may be a chance it was the dreaded 5% crit chance. But just in-case I would like to point out the first shot did in fact kill.

Another Issue is that combat engineers. So glad they made it in the armour doctrine where they are warmly welcomed by me. Seem really strong all of a sudden, they get alot of tankiness and veterancy from their unlock and it's really easy to overrun more expensive grenadier squads that have the mp40's equipped. They also plant mines in 1-2 secs which feels very fluid and nice to me and am happy for that change.
My proposed change would to make the upgrade a little bit harder to get as 1 cp for this awesome upgrade seems a little to good for me. But I can't give any real answers right now how to fix it.

Another note is that Allied War Machine is early very quickly hidden behinde only 2cp's, though it costs 200 munitions which I would presume balances it out. May be a concern as well.
My proposed change is to move one cp from Jumbo, to the allied war machine so they would both cost 2cp respectively.

Armor doctrine feels very strong atm.

I think the 90mm will have to go trought some changes vs jagdpanzers armor that seems to be resilent enought to hold vs pershings, when they should be used from cammo.

Can confirm, had a game where pershing shot at my jagdpanzer, I just looked at the situation without firing back at the pershing. Jagdpanzer took about 3-4 shots before finally dying.

[Krieger Blitzer]

Two replay files down here for 2 different PvP games on the most recent BETA version with Def doc re-work.

First game is on a workshop map (Rosmalen) so let me know if the replay isn't showing up.. because, at this point i would have to upload the game as a video and post it here instead (private one though, not going to be public) since I was recording it too, but don't feel like uploading it unless I get told that the replay file isn't working.

I was with Redgaarden as Allied vs Mofeta and Mr.FeministDonut as Axis.

temp.rec

2v2 Rosmalen (workshop map)

(1.24 MiB) Downloaded 430 times

2nd game, same teams.. but this time me and Red went Axis.

temp.rec

2v2 Bizory

(4.86 MiB) Downloaded 541 times

The map is Bizory which is an official Bk Mod map so the replay should definitely work.. and just like the first game, I also have this game recorded with Red on Discord.. but it was 1 hour & 30 minutes long, so I will not upload it.. or at least not anytime soon.
Specifically when I'm sure that the replay is going to work just fine...

Copy the replay files to your:
Users\<username>\Documents\My Games\Company of Heroes Relaunch\playback

Keep in mind though, both files are "last game played" so they are both called "temp.rec" so don't copy both of them at once.. or re-name them.

I think the 90mm will have to go trought some changes vs jagdpanzers armor that seems to be resilent enought to hold vs pershings, when they should be used from cammo.

I don't see any problems with the JagdPanzer armor.. it's just that Pershings are available too late, so it feels more disappointing when u lose them against such units.. but those units are working just as they should... It's the Pershing's armor that needs buffing, or that it becomes earlier available once again or maybe more HP, not sure.

===================================

My initial feedback;

I don't want to say too much yet, as I believe I'd need to play more before I confirm anything.. but to be honest with you guys; and i'm really not saying this to disappoint anyone... Though, it's just how I honestly feel about the whole beta thing; the game is a lot more boring to play.. just that.

Don't know... it feels so awkward and became so much more about "waiting" rather than having intense epic battles, even on high res.

And btw, where is the 280mm off-map rocket arty barrage? is it going to be moved to another doctrine? Or you completely got rid of it?!
I understand this barrage might have been a bit too OP due to the fact that it gives absolutely no warning to the opponent player, but then i think it should have been tweaked to give warning (maybe even add red flares) instead of completely removing the barrage from the game...
it was really useful to take down emplacements and such.

Def doc looks fine though as well as some other changes that seem to be really nice, but.. regarding Bunkers; i like the new concept.
However, do Bunkers really allow only 1 soldier per window? So, if you put a 6 men squad.. you only get 3 guys to fire? And all in 3 different directions? Hmm... Sounds odd.

Also,
Pz4.H basic price reduction only makes "mass production" more pointless to unlock.
And from the change-log... I think there is a typo:

- Mass Production unlock reduces the cost of Panzer IV H to 525MP 55F (from 450MP 65F)

I think you mean "from 550 MP" ???

Lastly,
Grenadiers in Blitz doc with MP40 don't really fit.. if this is supposed to be an Assault doctrine, keep the STG then...
Or allow 2x LMG42 upgrades maybe?

[kwok]

I don't want to say too much yet, as I believe I'd need to play more before I confirm anything.. but to be honest with you guys; and i'm really not saying this to disappoint anyone... Though, it's just how I honestly feel about the whole beta thing; the game is a lot more boring to play.. just that.

Don't know... it feels so awkward and became so much more about "waiting" rather than having intense epic battles, even on high res.

Sorry you feel this way. We have received opposite feedback from many more players. Let us know if you figure out more details about what it is that makes it feel boring.
To be fair though, you do have a reputation of playing defensive until the earliest power spike (such as the 2CP panzer iv). Maybe adapt to your opponent? Personally my games have been great, it was less about rushing and counter rushing and more about tactical positioning and long term strategic planning. If i know what my opponent is going for, I don't resign right away because my chances of winning are slim purely because of a counter pick. I have a chance of providing a counter with any doc I choose.

And btw, where is the 280mm off-map rocket arty barrage? is it going to be moved to another doctrine? Or you completely got rid of it?!
I understand this barrage might have been a bit too OP due to the fact that it gives absolutely no warning to the opponent player, but then i think it should have been tweaked to give warning (maybe even add red flares) instead of completely removing the barrage from the game...
it was really useful to take down emplacements and such.

Based on a lot of feedback received, def doc was definitely not dependent on that rocket strike to remove emplacements. See here for some recommendations on how you can attack emplacements using def doc with aspects that have not changed.
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=3252

Def doc looks fine though as well as some other changes that seem to be really nice, but.. regarding Bunkers; i like the new concept.
However, do Bunkers really allow only 1 soldier per window? So, if you put a 6 men squad.. you only get 3 guys to fire? And all in 3 different directions? Hmm... Sounds odd.

This was always true and how "windows" in CoH works. This is unfortunately unchangeable. Unless you want bunkers to invisible windows and invisible bullets shoot out of them. Even then I'm not sure that's possible, I haven't tried that because that's really not an idea we want to execute on.

Also,
Pz4.H basic price reduction only makes "mass production" more pointless to unlock.
And from the change-log... I think there is a typo:
- Mass Production unlock reduces the cost of Panzer IV H to 525MP 55F (from 450MP 65F)

I think you mean "from 550 MP" ???

Yeah a typo. Sorry you feel that it's more pointless, I disagree especially from feedback we've gotten where the main reason piv's are NOT bought prior to the unlocks is the MP and FU costs.

Lastly,
Grenadiers in Blitz doc with MP40 don't really fit.. if this is supposed to be an Assault doctrine, keep the STG then...
Or allow 2x LMG42 upgrades maybe?

Definitely no 2x LMG42s, that's what the suppression soldiers in the stormtrooper path is for.

I think the 90mm will have to go trought some changes vs jagdpanzers armor that seems to be resilent enought to hold vs pershings, when they should be used from cammo.

And the bunkers should get slight price reduction after these changes.

Also i got a report of CW engineers having infinite sprint when you upgrade them with mine detector.

We can continue to monitor the performance of the pershing as more feedback comes in.

Another Issue is that combat engineers. So glad they made it in the armour doctrine where they are warmly welcomed by me. Seem really strong all of a sudden, they get alot of tankiness and veterancy from their unlock and it's really easy to overrun more expensive grenadier squads that have the mp40's equipped. They also plant mines in 1-2 secs which feels very fluid and nice to me and am happy for that change.
My proposed change would to make the upgrade a little bit harder to get as 1 cp for this awesome upgrade seems a little to good for me. But I can't give any real answers right now how to fix it.

Let us know when you have an answer.

Another note is that Allied War Machine is early very quickly hidden behinde only 2cp's, though it costs 200 munitions which I would presume balances it out. May be a concern as well.
My proposed change is to move one cp from Jumbo, to the allied war machine so they would both cost 2cp respectively.

This will mean pershings would come earlier, perhaps after terror reworks we can look at how early certain units come in terms of CP.

[Black Panther]

Mass weaponry upgrade seems to be found nowhere, no button in WSC anymore.
And ammunition upkeep, seems to be quite strong to bare with revised style of maps, where ammo points already was lowered to prevent arty spamming.
Will be good if upkeep would take a percentage of income, instead of strictly away taking them.

Bunkers now has more difficulty to use them, so I’d call it more a nerf, maybe price reduction?

Also, Officer from Def making quite strong bonuses to infantry, making pios a really though opponent, now imagine this thing with grenadiers.
Btw, does territorial bonus applies to allied troops?

[kwok]

Check the supply yard? I think maybe we moved it there but forgot to put it in the changelog.

Upkeep mechanics unfortunately cannot be tied to percentage of income.

Territorial bonus does not apply to allied troops.

[Black Panther]

Pretty sure yesterday there was no unlock in T2 or Supply Yard tho.

[MarKr]

Thanks for feedback and reports. The MP40 for Grenadiers should not be there (it was in an early version of the reworks and it got mixed in with the chages to the Df doc Grens), the Mass Weapon Production upgrade should be found in Weapon Support Center, if it is not there it is a bug and will be fixed. Compared to previous version the upgrade now requires Supply Yard and it is possible that I messed up and the upgrade shows in WSC only after you build Supply Yard - anyway, I will check it.

Bunkers are not much more difficult to use, there is only the extra risk of enemy taking them. However there are ways to prevent it (described in the first post. But if the general consensus will be that the Bunkers are overpriced at their current state, we can think of ways to make them more appealing.

[Warhawks97]

My issues so far is when a Pershing was one hit killed by a pak43 emplacement. I dont like the one hit kill mentality and would just like to complain that 850hp isn't that much in this game. And would hope the pershing could get enough hp to not be one hit killed. There may be a chance it was the dreaded 5% crit chance. But just in-case I would like to point out the first shot did in fact kill.

Usually the max damage of kwk or Pak 43 is 135-165 which means, multiplied by 5, the max damage is 825. However, all emplaced 88 are on steroids. The normal one (flak 88) still has a max damage of 1000 (!). The Pak 43 emplacment has 900 damage. So its not an HP issue, its a problem of unconsistent damage values and plain stupid damage buff to axis emplaced 88 guns when compared to the tank versions of this gun.

Another Issue is that combat engineers. So glad they made it in the armour doctrine where they are warmly welcomed by me. Seem really strong all of a sudden, they get alot of tankiness and veterancy from their unlock and it's really easy to overrun more expensive grenadier squads that have the mp40's equipped. They also plant mines in 1-2 secs which feels very fluid and nice to me and am happy for that change.
My proposed change would to make the upgrade a little bit harder to get as 1 cp for this awesome upgrade seems a little to good for me. But I can't give any real answers right now how to fix it.

i would wait for further reports. Its just one CP perhaps but thats a cp that you havent spend into the off map arty strike at first or vehicle cap or mass production. With two cp for engis upgrade people might prefer the 1 CP arty strike or vehicle cap which both can significantly boost the early (vehicle cap) and mid (arty) stages. I do like it to have three different 1 CP "soft" options to gain some advantages in early- mid stage which in turn might delay better mid game tools. So if one spends that one cp for combat engi opening game but fails to make major achievements, he has a delay to get better mid game abilties. So there is a tradeoff i would say.

Another note is that Allied War Machine is early very quickly hidden behinde only 2cp's, though it costs 200 munitions which I would presume balances it out. May be a concern as well.
My proposed change is to move one cp from Jumbo, to the allied war machine so they would both cost 2cp respectively.

Its three CP. Two for mass production, one for war machinery. And since it is supposed to be usuable with light tanks and the mid stage, i would say its fine.
The jumbo has vastly increased armor. But you have been very lucky with your JP/48 to pen it so often. But taking away one CP from it would turn it into a unit everyone would rush for.
The Jumbos main issue is its side armor (rear armor stats) It should be more heavy tank like just like the tiger. That tank had 76 mm side armor.

I think the 90mm will have to go trought some changes vs jagdpanzers armor that seems to be resilent enought to hold vs pershings, when they should be used from cammo.

Can confirm, had a game where pershing shot at my jagdpanzer, I just looked at the situation without firing back at the pershing. Jagdpanzer took about 3-4 shots before finally dying.

Just like every tank with "Panzer IV" in its name, the armor stats are just broken.

The 90 mm gun has 52,78% pen vs The Jagdpanzer IV/A while the 17 pdr has 100% pen chance at max range against it. Thats just dump.
The Jagdpanzer IV/A has some weird modifier (in ebps file). It uses Hetzer target table (which is harder to hit by most guns by 15%) but then in addition to that has a modifier that reduces received penetration by 35% and then received accuracy by 15%.

So accuracy for 90 mm and 76 mm sherman gun is as follows: 0.75 (max range accuracy) x 0.85 (hetzer TT) x 0.85 (JP IV/A modifier)=54,1875% (61.4125% for 17 pdr)
Penetration for 90 mm is: 0.58 (max range) x 1.4 (Hetzer TT) x 0.65 (JP IV/A modifier)= 52,78%. (For 76mm gun its 37,7%).
The Jagdpanzer IV/48 from def doc is easier to pen (but stil bounces 90 mm shells) but even harder to hit. It has a unique 0.75 received accuracy modifier (so most guns have less than 50% hit chance against it) which not even the PE Jagdpanzer IV/48 has. So two same units but one is much harder to hit.
I keep on mentioning these issues for more than a year in various oppurtunities but nothing has happend to fix such issues.



The Jagdpanzer IV/70 from PE has its own target table (which is better than Hetzer TT). But here its the same. The 90 mm gun has just 52,2% pen chance at max range. But this time the 17 pdr has also just 53,1% pen chance.
The penetration calculation for the 90 mm is as follows: 0.58 x 0.9 (JP IV/70 TT)= 52,2%
The accuracy is: 0.75 x 0.75 (JP IV/70 TT)= 56,25%.
The penetration for the 76 mm against IV/70 is 24,3 % (compared to 22,14& vs Tiger).

Just to give you an idea, here is the pen for 90 mm gun vs Panther A with skirts at max range: 0.58 x 1.149 (Panther TT)= 66,642%. (59,977% vs G model)
For the 17 pdr it is: 0.59 x 0.8 = 47,2% (42,48% vs G model).

Summary:

90 mm Sucks vs JP IV/A while 17 pdr eats them any day.
Both stuggle vs Jagdpanzer IV /70 from TH doc.
The 90 mm is better vs Tiger and Panther than 17 pdr, but worse vs JP IV/A than 17 pdr.
The Jagpanzer IV/70 has better armor against 90 mm shells than Panther has. Against 17 pdr its equally good.
The 76 mm gun sucks against any of these targets. It basically sucks against any target that has "Panzer IV" in its name or which uses Panzer IV target tables (Panzer III).



In short that means there is no real weapon in US arsenal that can deal with Jagdpanzer IV´s effectively besides throwing everything at it at once.

I don't see any problems with the JagdPanzer armor.. it's just that Pershings are available too late, so it feels more disappointing when u lose them against such units.. but those units are working just as they should... It's the Pershing's armor that needs buffing, or that it becomes earlier available once again or maybe more HP, not sure.

There is a problem as i pointed out. A serious one. All Jagdpanzer IV need to be checked for broken internal modifier that got overseen perhaps in ebps files. They are veeery hard to hit (even harder to hit than hetzers, esspecially def doc IV/48 is almost a ghost unit) and the 90 mm sucks all over the place. These things shouldnt have better armor than Panthers.

===================================

Don't know... it feels so awkward and became so much more about "waiting" rather than having intense epic battles, even on high res.

depends on how players play. I used to have that "waiting" feeling whenever i faced def doc players and other campers. It was just waiting for priests and stuff.

And btw, where is the 280mm off-map rocket arty barrage? is it going to be moved to another doctrine? Or you completely got rid of it?!
I understand this barrage might have been a bit too OP due to the fact that it gives absolutely no warning to the opponent player, but then i think it should have been tweaked to give warning (maybe even add red flares) instead of completely removing the barrage from the game...
it was really useful to take down emplacements and such.

Its supposed to be replaced by a 150 mm arty stike. The 280 mm strike was like an orbital bombardment from Star ships.

Also,
Pz4.H basic price reduction only makes "mass production" more pointless to unlock.
And from the change-log... I think there is a typo:
I think you mean "from 550 MP" ???

No, its correct. From 450 MP after mass production up to 525 MP.

Lastly,
Grenadiers in Blitz doc with MP40 don't really fit.. if this is supposed to be an Assault doctrine, keep the STG then...
Or allow 2x LMG42 upgrades maybe?

It does fit. Most assault forces during the Blitzkrieg wars were equiped with MP 40. It was the main assault weapon. We just had too many stgs all over the place which was a "always go for" weapon. If you use Blitzkrieg ability with grens and MP 40 it does work. And that was the goal. If you need stgs, go for storms instead.

Thanks for feedback and reports. The MP40 for Grenadiers should not be there (it was in an early version of the reworks and it got mixed in with the chages to the Df doc Grens), the Mass Weapon Production upgrade should be found in Weapon Support Center, if it is not there it is a bug and will be fixed. Compared to previous version the upgrade now requires Supply Yard and it is possible that I messed up and the upgrade shows in WSC only after you build Supply Yard - anyway, I will check it.

Bunkers are not much more difficult to use, there is only the extra risk of enemy taking them. However there are ways to prevent it (described in the first post. But if the general consensus will be that the Bunkers are overpriced at their current state, we can think of ways to make them more appealing.

oh, i was already happy to see something being done about "STGS everywhere".
I would have really loved to see changes for grens with doc based weapons now. G43 for def doc, MP40 for BK doc and flamethrower (now that they work) for terror doc. But apparently we will stick with that "no brainer" "everyone buys it weapon" bc its an "good for all situation" weapon.

[Black Panther]

To my previous post:
This ammo upkeep will make suffer all your army composition on most of the maps with few medium ammo sections, making the advantage of all call-in units, mostly the blitz one, that comes with free weapon upgrades.
It should taking off ammunition pressure on all units or just lowering the upkeep, so it won’t impact you so much, forcing into pure support gamestyle

[MenciusMoldbug]

I've been thinking you can have a unit like Assault Grenadiers in COH 2 which are just Grenadiers all coming equipped with default mp40s instead of kar98k's (you can still upgrade their MP40's to stuff like LMG42, Panzershrecks, etc.).

Combat Engineer upgrade is fine where it is; increasing the CP's means there's a lot less incentive to get it unless all your starting infantry is Combat Engineers. I think these guys should require the motorpool to be built in standard resource games because Combat Engineers right from the start (and smart use of mortar smoke) can cripple Wehrmacht/PE no matter what they do.

Bunkers need 3 firing slots on all their sides; a single firing slot is too little for infantry to make good use of it (say you put volksgrenadiers in, only 1 guy with his kar98k is shooting stuff in front of him). I know you can increase the firing slots of the bunker because I've seen other mods do it; shouldn't be too hard. Either that or it needs a cost reduction (or maybe both).

Geshutswagen (Marder I) gets oneshotted by HEAT grenades from riflemen; it's also very squishy. It needs to be 25-50 MP cheaper to build and should be abit more resistant to that HEAT grenade of doom.

Def Doc JP4 (75mm) is still way too expensive in MP especially; no reason to get it if you unlock the 'upper-tier' JP4 with the Panther Gun since the cost is not that much bigger. Now that ambush strike's have all been reduced to a single shot this TD should get a bit less expensive than it is now because the 2 ambush shots is what made its 'survivability' not necessarily its armor.

The upper-tier JP4's have weird target tables because it has all sorts of weird modifiers on it; so 17 pounder will go through them like butter but 90mm will struggle to pen it like it's a 76mm gun. Should also look at their matrix dodge chance while it's standing still right in front of a sherman because that sherman can miss at point blank vs this thing.

Now kind of on-topic; but since camouflage changes have come; units should no longer camouflage in combat when they are shooting at stuff. If so please give Rangers normal camouflage instead of a click-button camouflage as they are no longer available to all. They are doc exclusive and come pretty late if you are not using the Ranger Truck and building them from the Barracks. My other request is a very small pet-peeve but Ranger Infiltration Squad should have thompsons as their default weapon instead of a upgrade like Fallshrimjagers have their FG42 or the SS-Squad has it's G43's and Squad Leader STG44.

On def doc, the 28mm halftrack is capable of speeding up construction of pioneers next to it; this should be mentioned somewhere but it's like secret knowledge if you never notice it (might be a bit too fast to; check how fast pioneers build a bunker with this halftrack next to them).

[Warhawks97]

Geshutswagen (Marder I) gets oneshotted by HEAT grenades from riflemen; it's also very squishy. It needs to be 25-50 MP cheaper to build and should be abit more resistant to that HEAT grenade of doom.

Depends. As long as you have any kind of inf in front of it, its damn powerfull and provides massive fire support. Short reload, can boost range, has deadly HE and MG and good pen vs most targets.
In def doc you can get them quickly and cheap combined with cheap volks. If you got them boosted by defensive training that combo makes up for a very good defense. So dropping them would end in a spam. An M10 costs 320 MP but requires afterall an unlock and has so far nothing effective against infantry. Thats why i would keep this unit at its current cost. Redgaarden fielded three of them with pioneer squads in front of them and he managed to deny most enemie movments for a long time untill jumbos showed up. So if you get two or three of them with cheap meatshields in front of them they become damn effective in defense and fire support.
Getting into 40 range to use the HEAT isnt that easy without getting shred before.

Def Doc JP4 (75mm) is still way too expensive in MP especially; no reason to get it if you unlock the 'upper-tier' JP4 with the Panther Gun since the cost is not that much bigger. Now that ambush strike's have all been reduced to a single shot this TD should get a bit less expensive than it is now because the 2 ambush shots is what made its 'survivability' not necessarily its armor.

That tank also has a hidden modifier the PE version does not have which makes it almost impossible to hit it in many circumstances. That need to be fixed. Else it costs 500 MP and has quite good armor that can even bounce 90 mm shots, not to mention 76 mm gun shots.
What would be your suggestion the cost should be?

The upper-tier JP4's have weird target tables because it has all sorts of weird modifiers on it; so 17 pounder will go through them like butter but 90mm will struggle to pen it like it's a 76mm gun. Should also look at their matrix dodge chance while it's standing still right in front of a sherman because that sherman can miss at point blank vs this thing.

Its weird. The 17 pdr is like 300% basic point blank pen chance, the 90 mm has 140% vs hetzer at point blank. I think the 90 mm should be the most potent allied gun in terms of pen and damage followed by 17 pdr.

[Viper]

mp40 can beat m1 garand or m1 carbine but loses against sten, grease and thompson......not mainly because it is weaker than all of them but because it is at best not stronger......but also because mp40 is available always in lower numbers per unit. so you will usually face 6 free grease/6 sten/6 thompson with only 4 mp40 and thats why axis infantry need to keep the stg when possible. or they become easy fresh meat to allied smgs.

[Warhawks97]

worst MPi is Thompson. If you are lucky and not caught in cooldown, its ok, if you get caught in cooldown, you wait hundred years before shooting again. I had many occassions where i could beat thompsons with cheap volks mp 40

And it depends on the unit that gets them. High HP means better use of MP. Thats why MP40 on grens would work for sure.




about ammo upkeep, its just too high. You get a unit on a map with 30 ammo per min and you cant do shit and all gets locked down. Halfing the upkeep would do the job. You want to prevent spam, not the entire usage.

And with stug IV. I would really make stug III default unit and stug IV Tank IV unlock required.

[mofetagalactica]

worst MPi is Thompson. If you are lucky and not caught in cooldown, its ok, if you get caught in cooldown, you wait hundred years before shooting again. I had many occassions where i could beat thompsons with cheap volks mp 40

And it depends on the unit that gets them. High HP means better use of MP. Thats why MP40 on grens would work for sure.




about ammo upkeep, its just too high. You get a unit on a map with 30 ammo per min and you cant do shit and all gets locked down. Halfing the upkeep would do the job. You want to prevent spam, not the entire usage.

And with stug IV. I would really make stug III default unit and stug IV Tank IV unlock required.

True tho, the upkeep should stay but like i commented before, tweaking it because some units really suck up your ammo a lot.

[Krieger Blitzer]

#Bugs:

- G43 upgrade for Grenadiers in Def doc.. is invisible in their hands, with no sound or animation.

- Flak88 (naked version) can't be constructed, even after the unlock.

- Pak40 emplacement has no tear-down time.

- PantherTurm has "special abilities" menu but it does nothing.

- Elefant ALRS ability is actually available at Vet2, not Vet3 as the description says... Which is fine, so just fix the description.
Also, the ability functions are all correct.. except that it behaves as if the Elefant has a turret, which means that it can shoot a target sideways, or even a target behind it, without having to rotate itself.

- Mass Production doesn't reduce MP price for any Pz4 tank.

=================================================

#Thoughts:

- The way how Grille shoots, has been actually changed? Well, i'm fine with the change.. but why there isn't anything about this in the change-log?
Or is it only me who can't see any mention of this? Anyways...

- I guess you need to tune-down the ammo upkeep values, perhaps as suggested previously.

- Stug3 should be default tank in Blitz doc, Stug4 should be unlocked with Stuh/Stupa, and Pz4.H/J unlock should be 1 or 2 CPs earlier available.

- I also suggest to remove Grenadiers from Blitz doc, and replace them with Storms in Barracks (available only after unlock) while also increasing the limit of Storm units from only 3 to 4 units, and the Gren unit that arrives with Pz3.N from the off-map would be replaced with fully upgraded Volks...
Grenadiers would be Terror exclusive with STGs on the other hand.

- inf doc should have Priest slightly earlier available and Jumbo unlock slightly delayed in return.

- I just wonder in which doc Ostwind and "Late" Stug4 version would be available? Hmm.

Overall, the Def doc changes are cool.

[Black Panther]

Please, nerf received accuracy from def Officer from 15% to 10%. Combined with "Fight and Cover" infantry will became terminators