Are PIATs a little bit OP?

Talk about CoH1 or BKMOD1 in general.
winterflaw
Posts: 174
Joined: 13 Apr 2017, 12:49

Are PIATs a little bit OP?

Postby winterflaw » 28 Feb 2019, 23:15

Or this a PvE problem?

PE, TH.

Two IV/70 with commanders, two 20mm half-tracks, two squads of AG (fully equipped - 42, 2x44s).

I met some enemy inf and a pair of Daimlers. Two squads engs, one riflemen with BAR, one squad PIATs in cover.

The squad of PIAT dudes in green cover wipes both IVs and one of the half-tracks, before I get out of there. The inf are pinned by the BAR so prolly not useful, I told them and 20mm to get the PIAT squads but it didn't seem to do anything.

Should armour really be this terrified of inf with hand-held anti-tank weapons? I thought they were basically suicide squads in real war.

Erich
Posts: 130
Joined: 07 Jan 2015, 20:51

Re: Are PIATs a little bit OP?

Postby Erich » 01 Mar 2019, 07:00

What is ur problem?

User avatar
Warhawks97
Posts: 3453
Joined: 23 Nov 2014, 21:45
Location: Germany

Re: Are PIATs a little bit OP?

Postby Warhawks97 » 01 Mar 2019, 12:02

More than 50% of all allied losses in France or generally from normandy till end of war was caused by hendheld AT. Just saying.

winterflaw
Posts: 174
Joined: 13 Apr 2017, 12:49

Re: Are PIATs a little bit OP?

Postby winterflaw » 01 Mar 2019, 14:28

Warhawks97 wrote:More than 50% of all allied losses in France or generally from normandy till end of war was caused by hendheld AT. Just saying.


That's misleading, because it says nothing about the availability over that time period of alternative means of knocking out tanks.

In fact, hand-held AT became increasingly common, because the Germans had fewer and fewer real AT guns. The Allies also had air supremacy through the entire campaign so aircraft were never a factor either.

It also, apart from being misleading, says nothing about how suicidal those hand-held attacks were. Perhaps it took a hundred infantry to get one hand-held AT kill - where my experience was with three men hiding behind an aeroplane wing (vs two tanks, two 20mm half-track and two squads of fully equipped infantry).

User avatar
Panzerblitz1
Team Member
Posts: 1698
Joined: 24 Nov 2014, 00:12
Location: Paris, right under the Eiffel tower.

Re: Are PIATs a little bit OP?

Postby Panzerblitz1 » 05 Mar 2019, 12:38

The PIAT aren’t OP at all, its very easy to counter this unit with tons of vehicles in game, im not even talking infantry who shread them in a second like nothing.
Image

winterflaw
Posts: 174
Joined: 13 Apr 2017, 12:49

Re: Are PIATs a little bit OP?

Postby winterflaw » 05 Mar 2019, 14:46

Panzerblitz1 wrote:The PIAT aren’t OP at all, its very easy to counter this unit with tons of vehicles in game, im not even talking infantry who shread them in a second like nothing.


There is on the face of it a large difference between your view, and the encounter I described in the OP. They - superficially, again - cannot *both* be correct.

User avatar
Panzerblitz1
Team Member
Posts: 1698
Joined: 24 Nov 2014, 00:12
Location: Paris, right under the Eiffel tower.

Re: Are PIATs a little bit OP?

Postby Panzerblitz1 » 05 Mar 2019, 20:25

It is surely a PVE issue, which is secondary for our pvp settings.
Image

winterflaw
Posts: 174
Joined: 13 Apr 2017, 12:49

Re: Are PIATs a little bit OP?

Postby winterflaw » 05 Mar 2019, 20:46

Panzerblitz1 wrote:It is surely a PVE issue, which is secondary for our pvp settings.


Regarding this, another poster has spoken about tank behaviour in PvE behaviour being very different to PvP.

Is there any understood reason why this would be so?

I mean, I would assume the units were all the same between PvE and PvP. How would it be they differ, or the game treat them differently, or apply the rules of the game differently?

User avatar
Panzerblitz1
Team Member
Posts: 1698
Joined: 24 Nov 2014, 00:12
Location: Paris, right under the Eiffel tower.

Re: Are PIATs a little bit OP?

Postby Panzerblitz1 » 05 Mar 2019, 21:23

Simply because the a.i. React differently than players, a lot of variables are taken in count, and we can control that, its just a random calculation between resources, tactics etc... sometimes some units will be beastie, sometimes not at all, thats why its extremely difficult to tell how some units will reacts vs PVE.
Today your PIAT squad will bulleyes tanks, tomorrow they will miss 75% of their shots.
Image

winterflaw
Posts: 174
Joined: 13 Apr 2017, 12:49

Re: Are PIATs a little bit OP?

Postby winterflaw » 06 Mar 2019, 12:17

Panzerblitz1 wrote:Simply because the a.i. React differently than players, a lot of variables are taken in count, and we can control that, its just a random calculation between resources, tactics etc... sometimes some units will be beastie, sometimes not at all, thats why its extremely difficult to tell how some units will reacts vs PVE.
Today your PIAT squad will bulleyes tanks, tomorrow they will miss 75% of their shots.


I may be wrong, but I think most of what you've written is a description of *how* they differ - what I had in mind was whether there were known and understood reasons *why* the difference existed.

One thing I do think I read is that you're saying units, when they are created, have differing skill levels? something like that? so it's not thast every unit of the same type is identical - they're not. When they're made, they get a different skill level, and so when they fight, some do well and some not?

I had assumed all units of the same type were identical, and every shot was calculated at the time the shot was made.

The New BK Champion
Posts: 279
Joined: 11 Feb 2018, 22:09

Re: Are PIATs a little bit OP?

Postby The New BK Champion » 06 Mar 2019, 14:30

If you don't understand the differnce clearly, try to experience pvp and compare it with pvai yourself, instead of playing endless word games in every second topic here.

winterflaw
Posts: 174
Joined: 13 Apr 2017, 12:49

Re: Are PIATs a little bit OP?

Postby winterflaw » 06 Mar 2019, 14:41

The New BK Champion wrote:If you don't understand the differnce clearly, try to experience pvp and compare it with pvai yourself, instead of playing endless word games in every second topic here.


I asked if people knew *why* differences exist.

You have said I should play the game, so I can see the differences *do* exist.

I understand they exist. I accept this is so. I have said so in two separate posts in this thread. Your reply is not an answer to the original question.

Your post is also disrespectful. I would appreciate it if you would stop reading my posts.

The New BK Champion
Posts: 279
Joined: 11 Feb 2018, 22:09

Re: Are PIATs a little bit OP?

Postby The New BK Champion » 06 Mar 2019, 14:48

I don't say you dont understand that the diffreneces "exist". I said that if you don't understand them "clearly", for example "why" they exist, then play more and see yourself. There is no better way to understand things, than to experience them on your own imo.
If I am disrespectful here, then wow, you are very easy to disrespect then.

kwok
Team Member
Posts: 1600
Joined: 29 Mar 2015, 05:22

Re: Are PIATs a little bit OP?

Postby kwok » 06 Mar 2019, 18:39

AI does not have any unit difference that PVP. They are the same if you open up corsix. The only quantifiable difference between AI and PVP is the fact that AI get resource bonuses in terms of income and starting resources to accommodate the fact that their "thinking" cannot improve

The superficial difference between PVP and AI that exists is purely the fact that in PVP they are utilized by humans while the AI is controlled by AI. What you describe as a superficial difference isn't superficial at all because both claims are not facts. It is not a fact that PIATS are OP or not OP, those are opinions.
Why is there a difference between opinions? Because both sets of players have extremely different experiences. Players who play against AI only and players who play against players only will have entirely different skills and opinions. For example, I have no problem facing 2 hard (sometimes 2 expert depending on the map) alone, against both british and americans and sometimes both. I do not find PIATS remotely OP but actually underpowered and I play against AI. This is because of the PVP experience I carry into my AI games. This is my explanation of the "differences". So when panzerblitz says this is a "PVE setting/issue" he means that this mod team will not cater to the PVE experience as it is only from the PVE experience does this opinion come up (at least in terms of recent history. PIATS HAVE been OP in the past, but no one in PVP seems to think so anymore).

winterflaw
Posts: 174
Joined: 13 Apr 2017, 12:49

Re: Are PIATs a little bit OP?

Postby winterflaw » 06 Mar 2019, 19:36

kwok wrote:AI does not have any unit difference that PVP. They are the same if you open up corsix.


Okay, but note that this was not being proposed - that units have fixed differences between PvE and PvP. What I thought might have been said is that when untis are created in PvE, for the AI, *after creation* a modifier of some kind is applied - at run-time, so it would not show up in an editor.

I have the impression from your answer anyway that this is not so.

The only quantifiable difference between AI and PVP is the fact that AI get resource bonuses in terms of income and starting resources to accommodate the fact that their "thinking" cannot improve


Right - which would has no impact on any given single engagement, such as the one described in the OP. People say units behave very differently in PvP, which is to say *individually*, when in combat, but this is not related to resources, except in that units can use special powers more often (which was not the case in the OP).

The superficial difference between PVP and AI that exists is purely the fact that in PVP they are utilized by humans while the AI is controlled by AI. What you describe as a superficial difference isn't superficial at all because both claims are not facts. It is not a fact that PIATS are OP or not OP, those are opinions.


Yes.

The OP describes a factual situation - a single three-man squad (with two or three other minor inf units nearby) with PIATs wiped two IV/70s, and a 20mm half-track, and got the second one down to 25%, before retreating, when fighting two IV/70, two 20mm half-tracks and two fully equipped squads of PE AG (which were suppressed) - while being engaged by all of them, but in green cover.

Each of us will form an opinon about this.

I have to say I would find it hard to go along with an opinon which thought this was a normal engagement and reasonably realistic.

In response people have said units are different in PvE - which is to say, units *individually* are different *in combat*, because there is no other meaning of different which could be relevant.

They are in fact implicitly saying they agree this is not normal, but that it's something beyond the control of the game - the PvE evil magic.

I've been asking to find out about this, to see if people know why.

I would say so far, no one knows why.

MenciusMoldbug
Posts: 138
Joined: 17 Mar 2017, 12:57

Re: Are PIATs a little bit OP?

Postby MenciusMoldbug » 06 Mar 2019, 19:51

PIAT's are actually in their very own niche of an AT handheld weapon with a lot of unique characteristics.

You know those nice bazookas, panzershrecks, and recoiless rifles in BK Mod? They all take longer to reload the closer they are to the target. PIAT's are the reverse of this; they reload faster the closer the target is and so get a lot more shots off than the other handheld AT weapons even if the target is medium distance away. They also have nice immobilization chances with the added effect of being able to get rear hits from the front because of how their projectile flies in an arc. Sounds pretty good right?

The problem with the weapon in PvP is that it is not a 'hit scan' weapon. The other handheld AT's have accuracy values they roll and if the roll is a 'hit' and nothing is in between it and the target they fired at; the rocket will go into 'heat seeking' mode and follow the target until it hits them. PIAT's dont do this; they simply calculate where the enemy unit is going to be if it's moving and shoot in that direction.

What happens in PvP is that this makes PIAT's really easy to dodge. You know how in certain action games there's that boss fight where the boss shoots where he thinks your character is going to move and if you don't move there you don't get hit? Same thing with PIAT's in PvP. You can have 50 PIAT's all shooting a vehicle moving about and you can juke them by simply moving in a direction and than stopping. They will all hit where they think you're going. But if you don't go there they will simply shoot into the nothingness that is the flat surface of the terrain. You can't dodge 50 bazookas with a vehicle. A few of them will get positive accuracy rolls and 'lock on' to your vehicle making them impossible to dodge/miss.

PIAT's moving-trajectory calculations also comes to bite them when they are shooting targets a few feet away. I have seen PIAT's miss point blank shots because they over-calculate where they think the vehicle is going and so just keep shooting around it. But most vehicles blow up before this happens so not a lot of people get to see it.

The AI being what it is, does not know how to juke PIAT's. All it does when it meets an enemy target with it's vehicle is stop and shoot at it (or in other cases move in a straight line towards you which is even better for PIAT's). Then there are those in PvP games who are juke-masters that can dodge them non-stop with even heavy tanks like the King Tiger.

PE's best counter against them is probably the armored car with flank speed. When you see PIAT's try using the armored car and practice dodging the PIAT shots (or reversing back with flank speed as they will never catch it). It's pretty easy to get a handle of and the armored car usually picks a few models off every time it fires its 20mm gun.

kwok
Team Member
Posts: 1600
Joined: 29 Mar 2015, 05:22

Re: Are PIATs a little bit OP?

Postby kwok » 06 Mar 2019, 21:45

I would say what Mencius said is exactly “why”. Don’t take too much offense to this but in general there is a huge skill difference between pvp players and pve players. So when I play pve, like I mentioned, I have no problems with piats. Even to the point where I think they’re worse since they’re not in the hands of players

winterflaw
Posts: 174
Joined: 13 Apr 2017, 12:49

Re: Are PIATs a little bit OP?

Postby winterflaw » 20 Mar 2019, 21:26

kwok wrote:I would say what Mencius said is exactly “why”. Don’t take too much offense to this but in general there is a huge skill difference between pvp players and pve players. So when I play pve, like I mentioned, I have no problems with piats. Even to the point where I think they’re worse since they’re not in the hands of players


Two IV/70 tank destroyers, two 20mm cannon half-tracks, two fully equipped (2x44, 42) full strength squads of AGs, and a single three man PIAT squad, in green cover, plus suppresion from a single BAR squad, wipes both tanks and a half-track (before the final half-track runs off). All of these units were directly to attack the PIAT squad.

I've been playing COH since about 2010, and BKM for I don't know how long - more than a year for sure, maybe much longer.

In PvP (original COH) I was level 12 Wehr. Not uber, but not bad.

The PIAT squad just sat there, and I just shot at it, and it did not die, and the units I had did.

I may be wrong, but I think this is plainly wrong, and I think you guys basically don't -want- to see it. I can't do anything about that. However, since I don't play anymore, it doen't affect me. Sadly, Normandy 44 doesn't seem to want to play on Linux, so I have yet to find a worthy successor.

kwok
Team Member
Posts: 1600
Joined: 29 Mar 2015, 05:22

Re: Are PIATs a little bit OP?

Postby kwok » 21 Mar 2019, 00:22

I mean.... send a replay? It’s not that we don’t want to see it. I’ve literally played the situations and never encountered the issue. It’s not like none of us play pve, we do and just don’t have that issue.


Return to “General - CoH1 / BKMOD1”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest